Is faith a choice?

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
You haven’t “re-thunk” (!?) your faith. You have lost your faith. To have any faith is to accept God as God (qua God) as given us by the Church, and you will only accept God on your own terms.

You have the strange and dishonest habit of restating positions of those who differ from you in grossly inaccurate ways, and in assuming you know what the other side thinks, believes, or wants.

I tell those who present me with information what I think of the information they’ve presented to me. That you may not like my interpretation of what you’ve presented to me gives you some options as to how to address what I responded with.

You could call me names, and play the “victim card”, or you could correct me in where I’m wrong so that I might more accurately understand you as you understand you.

I guess this makes you secure in your own belief system, but ultimately I feel sorry for you because you will never learn or grow from other points of view. Your knowledge will remain stagnant.

Your point of view is not clear to me. That’s the problem. What you’ve given me tells me that you are angry at the “supposed Catholic God” (or His representatives) for telling people to do time-wasting things when they SHOULD be simply “doing good in the world” instead of this “worthless prayer” stuff.

Now, instead of allowing us to inform you about definitional inaccuracies regarding God, prayer, “good”, “doing”, and various other things, you get annoyed at others perceived inaccuracies of you, when our (my) inaccuracies are not of you, as I don’t know you (the person), but rather of what your displayed understandings of those “items” are I just mentioned (God, prayer, et al).

If you don’t want to talk with me any longer, simply don’t.

(( By the way, you’re not the first to get annoyed at my “unrelenting ways”, so don’t feel bad. ))

:shamrock2:

 

[warpspeedpetey]

There you go again; grossly misrepresenting what someone else does or believes. Are you psychic? Have you done a Vulcan mind meld with atheist so you know what kind of self examination and contemplation they have done? You just assume that they are simple mindless automatons because they deny Christianity. That is just as bad as the atheist who say the Catholic Church is governed by a bunch of superstitious old men. Both of you are very wrong.

gotta say if you compare enough of 'em quoting the same three or four authors…

they start to run together a little.

just like those little green martians, gets to where ya cain’t tell 'em apart

darn near has me pacin’ roun’ my double wide:blush:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
So, is the Church (Catholic) a cult?

There are those who say it s, but I am not one of them. The Catholic Church has the historical connections, and is certainly the best and most intellectual effort available to man in his quest to connect to and understand his maker.

Amen to that!

Although, you’ve got it backwards again, in that the Church is God’s effort to contact man, so as to make Himself understood.

God is not “reached” by man through man’s power. God reaches man by grace, and man accepts Him or not by (human) will.

That’s what that whole “Tower of Babel” incident was about.

So why the “re-thinking” of your (presumably Catholic) faith, then?

:shamrock2:

 

[Michael_David]

Although, you’ve got it backwards again, in that the Church is God’s effort to contact man, so as to make Himself understood.

God is not “reached” by man through man’s power. God reaches man by grace, and man accepts Him or not by (human) will.

Thank you CatsandDogs for this knowledge of the Supremes ways.

Why is He limited in His actions? And why is Man/Woman limited as well? Isn’t there “ask…seek…knock”? You tend to be limiting the unlimited, and making the human race a selection game. If one is not selected, sorry, you can’t ride on this train…

How can one human being understand God? Yet, you try to. And I try too. The difference between you and me is that I know I will never understand Him fully, if only 5%… you tend to believe you understand Him 100%… and all His ways. Are you in for a BIG surprise!!!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Although, you’ve got it backwards again, in that the Church is God’s effort to contact man, so as to make Himself understood.

God is not “reached” by man through man’s power. God reaches man by grace, and man accepts Him or not by (human) will.

Thank you CatsandDogs for this knowledge of the Supremes ways.

Why is He limited in His actions? And why is Man/Woman limited as well? Isn’t there “ask…seek…knock”? You tend to be limiting the unlimited, and making the human race a selection game. If one is not selected, sorry, you can’t ride on this train…

Well, since He chooses to grace us all with what we need, and the “selecting” part is whether we’re “graced” enough to accept it by our assent, no one isn’t selected, but rather we select other than Him.

There’s no, “Sorry, you can’t ride the train!”, coming from the conductor. There’s only a, “Sorry, I’m more interested in riding that train over there!”, coming from us.

How can one human being understand God? Yet, you try to. And I try too. The difference between you and me is that I know I will never understand Him fully, if only 5%… you tend to believe you understand Him 100%… and all His ways. Are you in for a BIG surprise!!!

Nah,… I haven’t a clue as to God, other than what the Church teaches us about Him.

And the Church teaches us that He continually offers Himself to us so that we can choose Him, and that if we aren’t overly distracted by the competing “offers” of the world we can freely choose Him.

That seems rather simple, even for my quite obviously simple little mind.

And, yes, I’m sure I am in for an enormous surprise should I make it to purgatory! Looking forward to that no end, indeed!

:shamrock2:

 

[Michael_David]

Well, since He chooses to grace us all with what we need, and the “selecting” part is whether we’re “graced” enough to accept it by our assent, no one isn’t selected, but rather we select other than Him.

Let me get this straight: "since He chooses to grace us all with what we need."This means we have all we need to be. Then, the next part is “whether we’re ‘graced’ enough.”

But rather not that “we select other then Him”, but we refuse His grace even if nothing else has appeal at the moment… other then our own reliance on ourselves… rather then Him.

Even with not one ‘distraction’ other then our own being, that Grace can be refused by our Free-Will. It’s called ‘self-sufficiency’. This is part of original sin that hangs with us. It’s what Lucifer is doing in his own little world. Satan has refused God’s help, so God gave him his freedom… but away from Him.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Even with not one ‘distraction’ other then our own being, that Grace can be refused by our Free-Will. It’s called ‘self-sufficiency’. This is part of original sin that hangs with us. It’s what Lucifer is doing in his own little world. Satan has refused God’s help, so God gave him his freedom… but away from Him.

No one but God is self-sufficient. We are contingent beings, we rely on God for our existence. It is only those who are deluded who think that they are “self-sufficient” the center of their own universe.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

Do you believe that God violates the laws that he himself made?

In to live by faith, benedictus posts his meditation on the Wedding of Cana. "Going over the passage we have Mary seeing that they ran over wine, she says to Jesus “they have no wine” and Jesus says “Woman what is it to do with me. My hour has not yet come.” And the line follwing simply has Mary telling the servants to “Do what He tells you.”

And I thought this is exactly how Mary mothers us. Half the time we don’t even ask. She sees our needs and intercedes for us to Jesus. Whether we believe in and pray to her does not change the love and tenderness with which she mothers us.

Bot more than that, look at her influence: it was not Jesus’s time and he says so. But instead of the next scene showing them haggling over the finer points of whether he should or he shouldn’t do anything, Mary simply says “Do whatever He tells you.” She knew Jesus would accede to her request.

Through Mary’s intercession, Jesus performs a miracle “outside of his time.”. This to me speaks of the efficacy of her intercession.

So, actually, no, I do not think that God “violates the laws the he himself made” as I put it before. I think perhaps that God is truth and so is incapable of violating his own law, and since his laws are truth, it would be an inherent contradiction. Maybe a better way to put it is, God knows of special cases in his law (perhaps loopholes) that we don’t know of or understand so that what appears to be a violation of a law to us of partial knowledge of the actual law, is simply the application of a special case to the situation. And, it appears that some prayer, such as the Immaculate Heart of Mary’s intercession, is extraordinarily powerful. Hence, the power of the Rosary according to the teaching of Catholic Saints, (Secret of the Rosary (rosary-center.org/secret.htm)) and Marian devotion (True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin (theworkofgod.org/Library/Links/Trud_lnk.htm))

As for another example of, God’s ability to seemingly violate the laws that he himself made? We have the First Sorrowful Mystery, the Agony in the Garden, where Jesus Christ says to God the Father, *“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” * ** (Luke 22:42) **So even though it was written down in history that the Son of God must die on a Cross, and Jesus went around telling everyone that it would happen, he still thought that God could have a special clause and take away the Cross if he wished to do so, which he did not. Or another example: It is written, “Cursed is anyone that hangeth on a tree.” (Galatians 3:13), but somehow Jesus died on a Cross and is not accursed, somehow his death redeemed us from that curse.

Why does God so infrequently heal amputees?

Other thoughts: we must answer the question, if God cares more about spiritual brokenness than human brokenness, why doesn’t God heal his Church, which is divided between Roman Catholic and Orthodox, between Catholic and Protestant, between Christian and Muslim, letting it split into thousands of denominations, some preaching strange things. Why doesn’t God heal his fallen angels and fallen humans? Lucifer used to be the most magnificent angel of God, now he has but cut off. Isn’t that like a spiritual amputation? Why didn’t God heal Judas and Lucifer? If we had a good answer for those questions, we could probably answer why God infrequently heals amputees…because we have shown in three examples, that God does heal them. So the question is not why doesn’t God heal, but why doesn’t God heal frequently?

Someone wise, I think it was my father, once told me that the greatest temptation that Jesus Christ had was to come down from the Cross when the people taunted him, “You who were going to destroy the sanctuary in three days and rebuild it - save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from that Cross.” **(Matthew 27:40)**Why did God give us and the Angels free will? Why did God allow the serpent into the Garden of Eden? Why did God decide on the crucifixion of his son, himself?

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Kuzushi]

Once again, God does what He does for reasons He chooses

Once again you continue to make up your own dogma. The Bible says ask and you shall receive, etc. It does not say ask only for “small favors,” “reasonable favors,” or “favors that do not violate medical principals.” Besides, it is you and you ilk who maintain that the lame walk and those with cancer are healed at places like Fatima. If God helps you find your lost keys or heals your cancerous tumor it is absolutely logically consistent that he would also grow back a missing limb. The problem is that I am looking at it all objectively while you are making a foregone assumption from a perspective of faith. I understand why you believe as you do, but that does not change the fact that you are not being consistent or logical.

Oh, now I get it. You don’t like God because you see God as “luring” people into doing “unproductive” things, like praying and having hope, instead of rolling up their sleeves and making good things happen!

Huh? The original post you are discussing is as follows: So you are saying that God is NEVER neutral on anything. You have NEVER achieved anything through your own initiative or abilities alone. Is that what you are saying?

You have obviously made no effort to comprehend my original contention. It is you who seems to be taking a deterministic point of view by indicating that God has pre-ordained EVERY single action that one does or every event that occurs to an individual. Now it is I who wonder if you are truly Catholic because this is not what the church holds. We have free will as Christians. All my original point said was that there are things you accomplish in life that are the result of YOUR work where God did not intervene in any way. Go and reread it if you must.

It is certainly not that I “don’t like God,” and I definitely encourage people to “roll up their sleeves and make good things happen.” Why would you think I have indicated anything else? It appears that you are again attempting to erroneously read my mind or you are deliberately re-stating my arguments in a grievously erroneous way. I find this to be disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

God is NEVER neutral in anything that happens in the world. I have never achieved anything that was not made possible and supported by God’s assistance.

See my above comments. This is all determinism philosophy not supported by the church. If you have NEVER achieved ANYTHING that was not made possible by God then it must be God who supported you and assisted you when you sinned. Right? (You have sinned haven’t you?). I am not sure, but you may have a point on whether or not God has an opinion or concern about EVERYTHING that occurs in this world, but there are plenty of things you and I do every day that God neither assists nor deters in anyway. In other words he is neutral in his actions.

You could call me names, and play the “victim card”, or you could correct me in where I’m wrong so that I might more accurately understand you as you understand you.

Who is playing the “victim card” here? Please give me examples of where I have “called you names.” It is you who has referred to me as “thick” and made wild judgments about mine and others belief systems.

Your point of view is not clear to me. That’s the problem. What you’ve given me tells me that you are angry at the “supposed Catholic God” (or His representatives) for telling people to do time-wasting things when they SHOULD be simply “doing good in the world” instead of this “worthless prayer” stuff.

Please cite examples of where I am “angry at God.” I am merely pointing out an inconsistency in logic.

Now, instead of allowing us to inform you about definitional inaccuracies regarding God, prayer, “good”, “doing”, and various other things, you get annoyed at others perceived inaccuracies

Again, you are perceiving annoyance and hostility where there is none. I just think it is a pity for someone who appears to be fairly intelligent to simply choose to ignore such an apparent problem. I strongly recommend to all new college applicants to take a class in statistics and economics regardless of their major. I suggest the same to you. Stats will teach you about the mathematical probability of events. You will learn that it is mere chance that sometimes very good things and sometimes very bad things just happen. Math never lies.

So why the “re-thinking” of your (presumably Catholic) faith, then?

You seem to be projecting all kinds of nefarious motives and intentions to me. I have already stated quite plainly that I am discussing an inconsistency in the logic of the Catholic faith. I know of several other such failures in logic, but those are for another thread. Do yourself a favor and take a class in elementary statistics as I have recommended. I also like the book Innumeracy: Mathematical Illiteracy and its Consequences by John Allen Paulos. Paulos has written several very practical and thought provoking books. Another good book in the field I hesitate to recommend because the author is a flaming liberal is Fooled By Randomness by Nassim Taleb. It is entirely possible that I have not done a good job of relating my contention to you, so check these books out. These authors present the reader with a more practical and realistic way of looking at life instead of the hazy emotional laden philosophy I see so often.

 

[Kuzushi]

God infrequently heals amputees…because we have shown in three examples, that God does heal them. So the question is not why doesn’t God heal, but why doesn’t God heal frequently?

No, quoting an unsubstantiated document you found somewhere does not constitute “proof.” If God ever grows back a severed limb it will make headlines and the petitioner will be booked on Oprah. There would be NO doubt with the before and after pictures, witnesses, medical documentation, etc. But my point throughout all this is that we should not have to parse over data. There should be MANY Christians who have this favor done for them. There is no difference between what I am asking and the shrinking of cancerous tumors, helping the lame to throw away their crutches and walk, etc.

So what is the difference? Cancer can and does go into remission on its own for Christians, Moslems, atheist, etc. The “lame” person may simply have had a mental problem that prevented him from walking. Ones attitude and belief is VERY strong and learned behavior can work against us (lameness) or for us (healing). None of this is “miraculous,” but it doesn’t mean it isn’t spectacular either. It is just part of being human. God does not necessarily have anything to do with it.

 

[TOP]

God leaves room for faith and one day you will thank Him for that. Tim

 

[St_Gregory]

Nice ideas about faith.

But I have some problems:

How do we know WHICH faith?

Some have said that faith is something we chose to follow and then cultivate it - is this rational? I mean if something is not clearly evidential is it honest to cultivate belief in it? It sounds like religious dishonesty.

How can faith be a valid foundation for a belief? Or else what is there to act as a valid foundation for faith?

Yes God may leave us in religious ambiguity so that it does take faith to come to Him, but then how do we come to faith and know that its true? Why can’t God give us some way to know which faith is true rather than just tell us to make an act of faith and if you pick the wrong faith then that’s just unlucky?

How do we know we have true faith? How will it affect us?

Why do so many (though not all) Religious Believers take faith above objective reason? Is not that just irrational and thus immoral? - not too mention that kind of thinking breeds extremist fundamentalism.

Etc

Thanks to anyone that can help. Even just saying what makes you personally sure Christianity is true is helpful.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Well, since He chooses to grace us all with what we need, and the “selecting” part is whether we’re “graced” enough to accept it by our assent, no one isn’t selected, but rather we select other than Him.

Let me get this straight: "since He chooses to grace us all with what we need."This means we have all we need to be. Then, the next part is “whether we’re ‘graced’ enough.”

But rather not that “we select other then Him”, but we refuse His grace even if nothing else has appeal at the moment… other than our own reliance on ourselves… rather then Him.

Even with not one ‘distraction’ other than our own being, that Grace can be refused by our Free-Will. It’s called ‘self-sufficiency’.

“Love of self over God” is what is selected “other than Him” in my statement above.

He gives us what we need, but ANY thing that we accept in place of Him (which is the definition of “superstition” by the way) means we select not-Him, which is the choice of hell if persisted in.

This is part of original sin that hangs with us. It’s what Lucifer is doing in his own little world. Satan has refused God’s help, so God gave him his freedom… but away from Him.

Satan’s “freedom” is that “false freedom” to “do as you will” that is the proud WAR CRY of the secular (“of the age”) world, of course.

How can you tell if someone is acting from demonic influence? Does they insist their act is right in contradiction to freedom as meant by the Church? If so, that’s the demon to battle.

Once this “procedure” is used for a while, demons appear everywhere, which is nothing to fear (as demons are weenies), but certainly sobering as to how much work is to be done.

:shamrock2:

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

Nice ideas about faith.

But I have some problems:

How do we know WHICH faith?

Some have said that faith is something we chose to follow and then cultivate it - is this rational? I mean if something is not clearly evidential is it honest to cultivate belief in it? It sounds like religious dishonesty.

Great question! There was a former atheist, also a legal editor of the Chicago Tribune with a Master of Studies in Law named Lee Strobel, who decided to do investigations on the historical evidence for Jesus Christ. He wanted to use the weight of the evidence to prove Jesus Christ a fraud. After researching extensively, he converted to Christianity and wrote the book: The Case for Christ. Truthfully, that book gave my faith a kick-start. I was raised as a cradle catholic, and I followed most of the rules (with the exceptions of weekly Mass that I was then pretty good about) when I felt like it. Reading about the significant historical evidence of the historical Jesus, I began to be more passionate and more critical about my faith. However, now, several years later - I wonder - did I really need that book? The time is 2008 A.D. A.D. means - after Dominion - after Jesus Christ. Would this entire world operate on a time system based on an imaginary human being? In the United States, if we decided one day to change the time - it would probably be based on Martin Luther King - whose works have been spread all around the world. For example, the civil rights movement influenced the fight to end colonialism in Africa. But we don’t. So whoever Jesus was, he was powerfully. important.

The next question is: which version of Christianity is true? Now, as a rational believer, I converted to nondenominational Protestantism because I didn’t believe that Catholicism was the true faith - the Catholics that I knew were not strong believers, I thought the Marian apparitions and Pope were suspect - what if they were demonic? - and we didn’t seem to go by the Bible. I personally converted back to Catholicism, not by reason or evidence, but by healing from an illness due to (I think!) Daily Mass and frequent recitation of the Most Holy Rosary and occassional recitation of the Divine Office.

And I think that pretty much all of the major miracles - Fatima, Lourdes, Kibeho, Rwanda are Catholic - not Jewish, not Protestant (though there are a few smaller Protestant miracles), not Islamic, not Hindu, not Buddhist, not pagan. Though these other religions do sometimes have supernatural occurrings - there is nothing major and uncontroversibly good. Even the false miracles are Catholic, which is evidence too (- in my horrible ignorance I cannot remember the citation so I cannot verify this 100% accurately - but I believe that I remember reading that only about 5-10% of the miracles that have happened have been approved by the Vatican. Some places like Medjugorge, are suspected of being demonic.) St. Louis Mary de Montfort writes in True Devotion ot Mary

**90. ** Now that we have established thee five basic truths, it is all the more necessary to make the right choice of the true devotion to our blessed Lady, for now more than ever there are false devotions to her which can easily be mistaken for true ones. The devil, like a counterfeiter and crafty, experienced deceiver, has already mislead and ruined many Christians by means of fradulent devotion to our Lady. Day by day he uses his diabolical experience to lead many more to their doom, fooling them, lulling them to sleep in sin and assuring them that a few prayers, even badly said, and a few exterior practices inspired by himself, are authentic devotions. A counterfeiter usually makes coins only of gold and silver, rarely of other metals, because these latter would not be worth the trouble. Similarily, the devil leaves other devotions alone and counterfeits mostly those directed to Jesus and Mary. as for example devotion to the Holy Eucharist and the Blessed Virgin, because these are to other devotions what gold and silver are to other metals.

) (Kibeho, Rwanda predicted the Rwandan genocide before it happened, and I believe, to the best of my horribly imperfect knowledge though I have researched it less extensively that Fatima predicted the Holocaust) Even New York Times reports on the Kibeho prediction of the Rwandan genocide, and radio reports in Rwanda used to report on the Virgin Mary’s apparition before the genocide and during the genocide. query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9400E4D81738F93BA35757C0A96F958260

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

However, for people that are not blessed to know the truth, (and this comes from my own pitiful, ignorant, blind, and uninformed opinion), I think that it is better to devoutly worship the God that they believe to be truth than to not worship at all. From (Revelations, 3:15) "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one of the other! So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold–I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see… The Catholic belief is that the worship called forth by God is Adoration, or latria, Adoration differs from other kinds of worship, such as supplication, confession of sin, etc., inasmuch as it formally consists of self-abasement before the Infinite. “The Lord thy God thou shalt adore, and Him only shalt thou serve.”

I have found in my own personal experience to have more natural friendship with devout Protestants and devout Jews than lukewarm Catholics. The nicest doctor that I ever had was a devout Hindu. There is some statistical research, I forgot where I read it, that people who go to church events more than one time a week, are the least racist people, then next are those who do not go at all, while those who go every once in a while are somewhere after. I think that it is because - the sin for devout followers of other Religions or those who have no belief at all is ignorance, not lack of desire to worship God. If they knew the truth about who God is, they would worship him. - while the sin for devout followers of Catholicism, or Christianity, is lack of concern for God, whether or not he is truth. Catholic Enyclopedia website on the difference between latria -for God, hyperdulia - for the Blessed Virgin Mary, and dulia for the saints and angels. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/herbermann/cathen01.html?term=Adoration

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!! May the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary be glorified through us!! Jesus, I trust in you!! Jesus, I trust in you!! May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grace us with the gifts that we most desperately need!! Jesus, I trust in you!! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Nice ideas about faith.

But I have some problems:

How do we know WHICH faith?

A “faith” is not an organization. A religion is group of people with the same object (and usually practice) of faith. The question is: What should we have faith IN? What should we worship?

Worship love. Worship truth. Worship that ONE THING which ALONE is worth worshiping.

Once one worships “those”, or more properly “that”, thing, then one will find that there are groups of people that do the same thing that you’ve “discovered” to do.

That will invariably lead anyone to the nearest approximation to “the Church” (Catholic) that is available (and/or tolerable).

Some have said that faith is something we chose to follow and then cultivate it - is this rational? I mean if something is not clearly evidential is it honest to cultivate belief in it? It sounds like religious dishonesty.

That’s why it’s most important to first figure out what to worship, and then faithfully believe in that worship-worthy thing.

Why can’t God give us some way to know which faith is true rather than just tell us to make an act of faith and if you pick the wrong faith then that’s just unlucky?

He does (give us a way to know). The cardinal signs are peace, joy, and love.

But, it is a trial and error process finding those “other people” who are worshiping that which is worth worshiping, just like any shopping is.

How do we know we have true faith? How will it affect us?

“A true faith” or “the true faith”?

First find that which is worth worshiping. Then have “a true faith” in it. Then find “the true faith” where others have “a true faith” like yours.

It affects those who’ve found it, or “them”, “them” being “a true faith in the true faith”, by giving peace in suffering, joy in living in the world with that peace and suffering, and love between those who worship that which is worth worshiping and those who should worship that which is worth worshiping.

I’m prejudiced, of course, and am of the opinion that the Church (Catholic) is the most “expansive” and fullest of measure of “groups” who worship that which is worth worshiping, so I’d naturally point anyone and everyone in that direction first, so as to waste as little time as possible “shopping around”.

Why do so many (though not all) Religious Believers take faith above objective reason? Is not that just irrational and thus immoral? - not too mention that kind of thinking breeds extremist fundamentalism.

Extremist fundamentalism comes from behaviors that are prohibited by the Church (Catholic): Coercion, uncharity, and puritanism.

True religious reasoning (not to be confused with untrue-religion [nonCatholic] religious reasoning) is a super-set of scientific reasoning. True religious reasoning is objective reasoning based on revealed truth (from God via THE one authorized source of such information [the Church]), never contradicts true scientific reasoning (not to be confused with scientistic [a false-religion] reasoning), and is utterly rational.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Hail Mary, full of grace,…

My goodness, Ave! You certainly do type FAST!

You little speed demon, er,… angel, you!

:shamrock2:

 

[AveSantaMaria]

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

May the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate Heart of Mary bless you CatsAndDogs!!! May we both be gifted by the Holy Spirit with the gifts that we most desperately need!! For, the sake of his sorrowful passion have mercy on us and on the whole world!

To Kuzuchi and others who share his line of thought:

Before I respond to your points that you raised here, I hope to make sure that we are on the same page. Please help me to clarify where you are coming from. I think that I understand your reasoning, but if I could it hear it in your own words, we might have a better discussion because I might have a correct understanding and not a faulty understanding. (1) You write that

there should be MANY Christians who have this favor done for them.

*Why should the God that Catholics ought to worship be growing back many severed limb? Why should there be MANY Christians who have this favor done for them? *

we should not have to parse over data?

*Why not? * Thank you for reading!

Please see my assumptions:
(1) This world is not the original intended world where there is an unbroken friendship between God and man. The hope that we have in this life, as best as I understand it in my blind, ignorant, pitiful, and stupid knowledge, is not to be abandoned to the power of death. This life is a “vale of tears” where we can earn merit through suffering our crosses in patience for an eternal reward. From the Cathechism of the Catholic Church

**. 55. ** This revelation was not broken off by our first parents’ sin. “After the fall, [God] buoyed them up with the hope of salvation, by promising redemption; and he has never ceased to show his solicitude for the human race. For he wishes to give eternal life to all those who seek salvation by patience in well-doing.”

Even when he disobeyed you and lost your friendship
you did not abandon him to the power of death…
Again and again you offered a covenant to man.
​

I used my hard copy of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, but here is an online link: Cathechism of the Catholic Church vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

To the best of my understanding, this is not supposed to be a world that we would have originally wanted to live in - that world was the Garden of Eden and will be Heaven for those who are saved - If you read, the Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devotion_to_the_Sacred_Heart_of_Jesus#FIRST_POINT._.E2.80.94_The_ardent_desire_Jesus_Christ_feels_to_be_with_us., you understand that part of the Sacred Heart of Jesus’ love for us is demonstrated by the fact that he came to Earth and he continues to remain in Earth in the Eucharist, despite the fact that he lives in Heaven, where all desires are satisified. (By the way, I did not post the online links to True Devotion to Mary that I quoted from earlier, written by St. Louis Mary de Montfort, here: True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin montfort.org.uk/Writings/TrueDev.html or the **Secret of the Rosary ** montfort.org.uk/Writings/Rosary.html or the Preparation for 33 day consecration to the Blessed Virgin saintlouisdemontfort.com/consecration.cfm or the Reflections on True Devotion to Mary by His Holiness Pope John Paul II http://www.michaeljournal.org/montfort.htm )

In fact, this is not only the world that we were originally gifted with, this world is ruled by the devil. "I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. (John 14:30-31)

To the best of my (again horribly imperfect) knowledge, in fact, St. Paul suggested that the lack of miraculous signs is an obstacle to believing for the Jews that may not be remedied. St. Paul said: “Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.”(1 Corinthians 1:22-25)

​

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Kuzushi]

True religious reasoning (not to be confused with untrue-religion [nonCatholic] religious reasoning) is a super-set of scientific reasoning. True religious reasoning is objective reasoning based on revealed truth (from God via THE one authorized source of such information [the Church]), never contradicts true scientific reasoning (not to be confused with scientistic [a false-religion] reasoning), and is utterly rational. :

Many religious people are delusional and dishonest. They don’t even know that they don’t know. Instead of admitting ignorance they go on pompously pontificating on fallacious platitudes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with admitting we just don’t know the answers to many things. For example, you recently gleefully did a “gotcha” on me when you felt I did not know some esoteric factoid about souls in Hades. There is ABSOLUTLY NO WAY that you or anyone else REALLY knows the intricacies of the mechanics of the afterlife. Don’t pretend that you do. You were just parroting back something you read.

Another example is when you grossly misstated that atheist want a community of robotic Borg. Any atheist reading your comments knows this is not true and they will simply disregard you as a fool. Other like-minded Christians may high five you and say “yeah ….that’s what those silly heathens want…robots.” This all or nothing approach makes those who are on the fence think you are an extremist, and they get turned off.

I have chosen to live a life of honesty and when things don’t make sense I raise questions. I admit that there are many things I don’t know and will possibly never know. That is what my postings are about. For example, many Christians speak reverently about “God’s love” in their life. I do not say the following fallaciously or disrespectfully but I feel more love coming from my dog than I ever have from God. Now this is MY experience, but I have talked to others and they eventually see my point, and they come to say that they too have had similar feelings.

You will probably point out that I am missing the point because it is supposed to be about what I can do to serve God and not the other way around. Well, you have read the Bible and it is a VERY optimistic book. The Old Testament Psalms and Proverbs are often about how the righteous are blessed and will be rewarded. The New Testament invites to “ask and receive” etc. The reality of life is that school buses full of Christian children fall off bridges and they all perish in fiery deaths. There is no difference between Catholics, Protestants, Moslems, atheist etc. In fact when you hear these tragedies on the news they sound bad enough, but compared to the reality the newscasters presentation is almost aseptic. I know because I have personally been to shocking scenes of suffering and death at accident sites and other tragedies. Again, you and others of your ilk THINK you know but you don’t even know what you don’t’ know! I think it is Mark Twain who is credited with saying something to the effect that it is not that so many people are ignorant, but rather so many people who know things that just are not so. It may seem counter-intuitive, but one of the first steps to enlightenment is to admit there are things you don’t and can’t know.

Fortunately, true tragic acts of carnage occur very infrequently. When Christians see that their family is mostly intact and things are normal they are lulled into a false sense of security believing that God has “blessed” them. Give me a break. It is just mathematical probability working for us or against us in regard to the things we can’t change and it’s simple human tenacity, hard work, capitalism, and other great features of this country that work for us when the positive things come our way.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

[M]any Christians speak reverently about “God’s love” in their life. I do not say the following fallaciously or disrespectfully but I feel more love coming from my dog than I ever have from God. …

The reality of life is that school buses full of Christian children fall off bridges and they all perish in fiery deaths. …

I know because I have personally been to shocking scenes of suffering and death at accident sites and other tragedies. …

It is just mathematical probability working for us or against us in regard to the things we can’t change and it’s simple human tenacity, hard work, capitalism, and other great features of this country that work for us when the positive things come our way.

Best to you in finding healing for your injuries of heart and mind so that love and truth can become for you worship-worthy in the future.

May you find the hope that you seek, as it’s good to seek for that which we are without yet know we need.

Prayer and work, just like faith and reason, are not at war with each other. May you discover this.

Síocháin an Tiarna libh i gconaí. Is ceart agus is cóir leis an Tiarna Dia. Ámén. (ref)

:shamrock2: