Is faith a choice?

[Michael96]

Can we really control what we believe?

–Rico

I don’t think I can really choose. But you can do the experiment on yourself and find out honestly whether you can or cannot - think of something you believe strongly against and commit yourself to truely and faithfully believing in it for just one day. Can you do it?

(But I do think we can close oursleves off from being open to new beliefs. We can deliberately decide we won’t genuinely and openly-minded investigate Catholicsim, Protestantism, Islam etc. So I think we can avoid going down a route that may lead to altered belief; but I don’t think most of us can choose to believe something unless we are already convinced to the point we are happy to accept it, and that’s not really choice).

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
So, how on earth do you call yourself a Catholic?

How on earth do you feel qualified to make a judgment insinuating that I am not a Catholic?

By what you say.

You said:
“I think that what most people call faith is really hope. We hope there is a God out there who hears our prayers and cares about us as individuals. We all know there is ample evidence that the God most Christians believe in does not exist, yet we continue to wish it is all true.”

Now, do you believe in God as the Church understands God to be, or not?

Do you profess that God DOES exist, or not?

You’ve also said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
Religion, especially true religion (that of the Church [Catholic]), requires that we first faithfully believe in hope of a good so as to GET proof, and not hope for proof so that we can get belief in faith.

I assume you meant to write “hope of a God.” Hope is inconclusive. I try to not hope for anything, but rather aggressively go after what is right. I could be wrong, but I do not think your above statement is true Catholic doctrine.​

You try not to hope for anything?

You think “faith” is really “hope”, then you say you don’t do “hope”.

What kind of Catholic doesn’t do “hope” or “faith”.

You are a Catholic, in as much as all humanity is a part of the Church in some mysterious way at various distances from full communion with her, but I’d put in the self-identified “distantly in communion with her” category according to what you’ve said.

Perhaps I’m wrong. Perhaps I’m not.

I’m just curious about by what means it is that you call yourself a Catholic.

Simply because you were baptized by a Priest would be one definition of “Catholic”. Is that the one you use?

:shamrock2:

 

[Michael96]

One thing I just remembered was that there was research published earlier this year which showed at least some types of decision are made before the conscious mind (will) knows they have made them. Fascinating stuff…

wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
So, because bright yellow flashing ravens don’t occur, ravens don’t occur?

Your basic error is a false equation of things which are not equal.

It is you who believes that something as extreme as miracles occur millions of times a day through answered prayer.

I am merely pointing out that with all those miracles flying around where are the apparent ones like I have asked about.

Why would you expect to see your “apparent ones (miracles)”?

Instead of wondering the same thing you think it is all part of God’s plan.

So, instead of understanding that God does things as He will, regardless of our expectations, and for His own reasons which are for our best, I should wonder why my expectations aren’t being met?

Is there any part of the history of the universe that ISN’T part of His plan to you?

Once again, you call yourself Catholic WHY again?

However, as I have pointed out, there is no basis for your belief in the Bible or the teachings of the church. Perhaps you need to start your own religion.

What I believe about miracles is that God is not obliged to do them or to do them as we might expect them to be done.

That is also the teaching of the Church.

You expect them to be done according to your idea of when and how they should occur.

That is not the teaching of the Church.

:shamrock2:

 

[Michael96]

It’s a shame I found this topic too late. If anyone would like to go back to the OP then I’d love to discuss it.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

It’s a shame I found this topic too late. If anyone would like to go back to the OP then I’d love to discuss it.

Right then,…

Is faith a choice, or something else, or nothing at all?

:shamrock2:

 

[Michael96]

Right then,…

Is faith a choice, or something else, or nothing at all?

:shamrock2:

I don’t think we can choose what to believe. Firstly you can *try *believing something you don’t currently believe (can you do it?). Secondly you then have to go back and step and ask “why” did you make that choice.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I don’t think we can choose what to believe. Firstly you can *try *believing something you don’t currently believe (can you do it?). Secondly you then have to go back and step and ask “why” did you make that choice.

I’ve never tried to believe something.

I had a reason to hope that I WOULD believe something presented to me, then later, perhaps, came to believe what I had hoped for.

When presented with God, why do people not hope that they might come to believe in Him?

:shamrock2:

 

[Rico_S]

It’s a shame I found this topic too late. If anyone would like to go back to the OP then I’d love to discuss it.

Michael:

I thought my notion was sort of novel, but there was a thread in an ask the athiest thread last month that covered this topic (I just read it today).

I seem to align more with the athiests in that thread. I can’t see how I can just put aside all of my doubts and questions and simply convince myself through sheer will that I believe. In fact, I think this is why the majority in the Church appear so apathetic towards their faith…the so called “cafeteria catholics” They do not in fact have faith…they don’t truly believe. Deep down, they know it too…but it is a frightening thing to question these types of things. It is easier to just hope…go with the flow…and not think too hard.

At this point in my life, I believe faith is truly a gift. I enjoy reading the stories of peoples’ “conversions” and often ask myself, “when is my revelation coming?”

Oh, btw, if you want to try and keep the thread on track, I would encourage you to keep your exchanges with cats and dogs to a minimum.

–Rico

 

[Michael96]

At this point in my life, I believe faith is truly a gift.

That is also my own experience.

 

[Michael96]

I’ve never tried to believe something.

It is worth the experiment; if only to have personal experience of how much belief is really under your control. I think we all may come out with different experiences, but I personally (when I tried) could not believe something (that at the time I disbelieved) simply by conscious will/choice.

Try it tommorow. How about picking the political party you think today is worst and for one day trying to faithfully and genuinelly believe they are the best party? Can you do it? I’ll be interested in hearing how you get on.

 

[Kuzushi]

Why would you expect to see your “apparent ones (miracles)”?

Because a miracle is a miracle. There is absolutely no distinguishment made among miracles except in your assumptions. Let’s look at a simple event like someone getting a job. Some Christians would start to thank God if they get the position. However, if God did intervene then we get into a free will verses determinism argument because the personnel manager is not truly free if God (probably unbeknownst to him) is forcing him to pick the Christian petitioner. What about all the other job candidates who were passed over because God made his choice? They are just out of luck!

Of coarse many Christians will totally ignore the fact that they got the job because the personnel manager simply preferred them. They will “thank the Lord” even if God had absolutely nothing to do with it. It is you and others who believe as you do that God does such miracles even though you have no direct proof for this. If God does these miracles don’t you wonder why he has drawn the line at re-growing severed limbs and other apparent miracles? Aren’t you at least a little curious as to why it is that all this “God power” is flying around and none of it is being used for amputees? Such a fact should make a wise man re-think his faith as I have done.

A good parallel is the UFO phenomena. With the proliferation of video cameras and even phones that take pictures one would think that there would be many good depictions of these flying saucers. Yet this fact has not stopped people from opining that UFOs are visitors from other planets and other wacky theories. It seems to me that there is no belief system out there that is so outrageous and ridiculous that it will not find disciples. People are funny! This is precisely why conmen and cults are SO successful.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Michael:

Oh, btw, if you want to try and keep the thread on track, I would encourage you to keep your exchanges with cats and dogs to a minimum.

–Rico

I most definitely agree!

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
I’ve never tried to believe something.

It is worth the experiment; if only to have personal experience of how much belief is really under your control. I think we all may come out with different experiences, but I personally (when I tried) could not believe something (that at the time I disbelieved) simply by conscious will/choice.

Try it tommorow. How about picking the political party you think today is worst and for one day trying to faithfully and genuinelly believe they are the best party? Can you do it? I’ll be interested in hearing how you get on.

Dear Michael,

It’s not worth TRYING to believe something that you have no reason to believe, as the grace to WANT, or more likely NEED, to believe in something is from God, and any other “trying” is futile and essentially mental masturbation.

Faith is a choice, but it is only a choice to believe what has been presented to you by the grace of God.

Arbitrary “trying to believe” is just goofing around and wasting time instead of living life in service.

Now, will you answer my question?

When presented with God, why do people not hope that they might come to believe in Him?

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
Why would you expect to see your “apparent ones (miracles)”?

Because a miracle is a miracle. There is absolutely no distinguishment made among miracles except in your assumptions.

Well, there is no arguing with someone who can’t see God qua God about miracles.

To me, it’s insane to consider the miracle of “finding my keys” and “regrowth of human limbs” as equivalent miracles, and serves only to promote the perverse idea that God isn’t God because God should (for some reason) do as many “regrowth” miracles as “key finding” miracles.

But, we are all perfectly free to choose our own “insanities”, I suppose.

Of coarse many Christians will totally ignore the fact that they got the job because the personnel manager simply preferred them. They will “thank the Lord” even if God had absolutely nothing to do with it.

But that is just it, Kuz! EVERYTHING given us that is good is a gift from God to a Catholic (and most likely to other Christians as well).

Miracles are simply really amazing normal good gifts. Since we thank God for EVERY good thing, because all good things come from Him, why would we not also thank Him for the really BIG good things as well?

This is why I’m a bit “puzzled” as to how you manage to call yourself a Catholic, as “thanking God for all good things” is a rather primary behavior for actual Catholics.

It is you and others who believe as you do that God does such miracles even though you have no direct proof for this. If God does these miracles don’t you wonder why he has drawn the line at re-growing severed limbs and other apparent miracles?

He gets to draw the line wherever He wishes to do so. He is God.

Next question.

Aren’t you at least a little curious as to why it is that all this “God power” is flying around and none of it is being used for amputees? Such a fact should make a wise man re-think his faith as I have done.

You haven’t “re-thunk” (!?) your faith. You have lost your faith. To have any faith is to accept God as God (qua God) as given us by the Church, and you will only accept God on your own terms.

That makes whatever it is that you “worship” not-God. You do realize what choosing not-God as your “god” gets you, don’t you?

It seems to me that there is no belief system out there that is so outrageous and ridiculous that it will not find disciples. People are funny! This is precisely why conmen and cults are SO successful.

So, is the Church (Catholic) a cult?

:shamrock2:

 

[Michael96]

When presented with God, why do people not hope that they might come to believe in Him?

:shamrock2:

I think for a variety of reasons:

1. Some people have an image of God that no-one would want to believe in (haven’t been there myself but if presented with some the OT without knowledge of the OT I can understand tht position).
2. Some people are perfectly content as they are (I’ve been there).
3. Some people examine the evidence and decide there is most likely no God (I’ve also been there in the past).
4. Some people see that so many different beliefs claim to know a different God that they don’t see any reason (beyond cultural influence) to opt for one in particular (been there as well).

And so my own personal experience was being brought back to faith by the grace of God; I did not “choose” to believe - the only choice I could make was not to resist God’s grace.

And I’m not sure if there is a “right” answer to any of this; we all have been brought to faith in different ways. Some went searching for the treasure and others (like me) just seemed to stumble upon it. Some have to work hard to get the “head knowledge” before they can open up to the “heart knowledge” while others believe in God and Christ with little head knowledge.

Anyway - what’s your experience C&D? Did you feel you made a choice of what to believe rather than feeling that someone else (God) had already made the choice for you? Did you make the choice based on intellectual insight or “feeling”?

 

[Kuzushi]

To me, it’s insane to consider the miracle of “finding my keys” and “regrowth of human limbs” as equivalent miracles

Why? The claim that a supernatural being in the sky will help you in ANY way is fantastic no matter what the incident. There is a chain of natural human events that are yet to occur and ANY intervention in those events by a God, psychic powers, space aliens, etc MUST be miraculous.

Miracles are simply really amazing normal good gifts. Since we thank God for EVERY good thing, because all good things come from Him, why would we not also thank Him for the really BIG good things as well?

So you are saying that God is NEVER neutral on anything. You have NEVER achieved anything through your own initiative or abilities alone. Is that what you are saying? I do not think this holds with Catholic doctrine. You are just making it up as you go along again!

You haven’t “re-thunk” (!?) your faith. You have lost your faith. To have any faith is to accept God as God (qua God) as given us by the Church, and you will only accept God on your own terms.

You have the strange and dishonest habit of restating positions of those who differ from you in grossly inaccurate ways, and in assuming you know what the other side thinks, believes, or wants. I guess this makes you secure in your own belief system, but ultimately I feel sorry for you because you will never learn or grow from other points of view. Your knowledge will remain stagnant.

So, is the Church (Catholic) a cult?

There are those who say it s, but I am not one of them. The Catholic Church has the historical connections, and is certainly the best and most intellectual effort available to man in his quest to connect to and understand his maker.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I think for a variety of reasons:

1. Some people have an image of God that no-one would want to believe in (haven’t been there myself but if presented with some the OT without knowledge of the OT I can understand tht position).
2. Some people are perfectly content as they are (I’ve been there).
3. Some people examine the evidence and decide there is most likely no God (I’ve also been there in the past).
4. Some people see that so many different beliefs claim to know a different God that they don’t see any reason (beyond cultural influence) to opt for one in particular (been there as well).

Yeah, not surprisingly, I’ve done all those as well, except for #1. The reason I missed that one was because I was brought up in a completely non-religious, though VERY non-anti-religious, home.

And so my own personal experience was being brought back to faith by the grace of God; I did not “choose” to believe - the only choice I could make was not to resist God’s grace.

AMEN and a half to that!

When actually presented with what God actually is, which seemed like shear luck (not to confused with “Sher-lock”, thank you Gene Wilder) that it had happened, though it wasn’t of course, I could relatively easily have spent some energy resisting that grace and gotten really quite bitter, which is the inevitable result of resisting God’s grace, but luckily, or wisely, though I’m not known for “wiseliness” (!?), I didn’t, and now I’ve enslaved myself to Love Himself, which will be forever the only slavemaster I’ll ever allow myself to be enslaved to.

…which will probably go a long way toward keeping me out of trouble of the “bad” kind.

Some went searching for the treasure and others (like me) just seemed to stumble upon it.

I’m apparently quite spiritually clumsy.

Some have to work hard to get the “head knowledge” before they can open up to the “heart knowledge” while others believe in God and Christ with little head knowledge.

My personal developmental retardation is that I’m prone to being a hyper-intellectual, as should be obvious considering my overuse of the hyphen and comma and subordinate-clause.

Anyway - what’s your experience C&D? Did you feel you made a choice of what to believe rather than feeling that someone else (God) had already made the choice for you? Did you make the choice based on intellectual insight or “feeling”?

God didn’t make my choice for me. I was really quite “prepped” by being softened up by “life-stresses” to take the hint when it hit me. Why on earth would I run away from Fatherly/Creatorly Love of infinite proportions when I didn’t have to give up a consarned thing in the way of my intellectual life or freedom of thinking?

All I had to do was “relax” and see if my trust would be abused. It wasn’t. So, I’m in the process of relaxing more, and seeing if that will be abused, which I don’t think it will be, and while it gets more and more difficult to relax more and more, due to that whole “diminishing returns” thing, going “deeper” has become necessary to me regardless of the cost.

I think the cost will be very VERY considerable, by the time my time is up.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
To me, it’s insane to consider the miracle of “finding my keys” and “regrowth of human limbs” as equivalent miracles

Why? The claim that a supernatural being in the sky will help you in ANY way is fantastic no matter what the incident. There is a chain of natural human events that are yet to occur and ANY intervention in those events by a God, psychic powers, space aliens, etc MUST be miraculous.

Firstly, He’s not a supernatural being in the sky. He’s THE God located wherever He’s located as He wills to be located.

He isn’t Zeus model 2008-sM (with “Sport Miracles” option).

Once again, God does what He does for reasons He chooses. That He chooses not to do very much “limb regrowth” or “parting of seas” or “writing ‘Howdy World, the Voguns are NOT coming soon!’ on the moon in Arial Bold typefont” is just fine with me as I trust Him to do what is most wise and good for us at any particular time.

Your “give me BIG miracles or give me a Godless world” is a bizarre manifesto.

Are you simply “jerking me around” with your apparent demand that God do as you wish or you’ll withhold your belief in Him, or will you PLEASE explain what your actual point is?

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
Miracles are simply really amazing normal good gifts. Since we thank God for EVERY good thing, because all good things come from Him, why would we not also thank Him for the really BIG good things as well?

So you are saying that God is NEVER neutral on anything. You have NEVER achieved anything through your own initiative or abilities alone. Is that what you are saying?

Oh, now I get it. You don’t like God because you see God as “luring” people into doing “unproductive” things, like praying and having hope, instead of rolling up their sleeves and making good things happen!

To not do what one can do to accomplish good things is always a sin. Your concept of prayer is simply not correct. It is not a waste of time and effort.

We pray BY DOING, as well as praying by being contemplative, or meditative, or by adoration.

We (Catholics) are not puritans. Contemplative prayer doesn’t preclude the necessity for action in the world, and action in the world doesn’t preclude the necessity for contemplative prayer.

I do not think this holds with Catholic doctrine. You are just making it up as you go along again!

God is NEVER neutral in anything that happens in the world. I have never achieved anything that was not made possible and supported by God’s assistance.

Does that mean that my efforts are rejected by God as “trivial human activity”? No. He lovingly accepts our willing assistance in His plans like a Parent accepts the unneeded “help” of His child who wants to show his love for his Parent by “helping”.

I try to offer to Him all my sufferings, and my accomplishments and frustrations are examples of sufferings.

You seem to be some sort of opposite-of-Calvinist. Instead of thinking that all works are futile in the sight of God, all works are your boast (your utterly proud accomplishment) in the sight of the nonexistence of God.

Would that be accurate?

:shamrock2: