Is faith a choice?

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
How is that any scarier than someone like yourself who can decide “authoritatively for yourself” what is and isn’t evil or good?

Please give me examples of where I have done that.

You have said repeatedly to “decide for yourself” in all things. I must presume that you take your own advice. If this is true (that you do take your own advice) then in all questions of morality you are free to decide what is good and what is evil to do.

Should you have reason to decide that murder (such as say, by abortion) is a “non-evil” (a comparative good and not an absoulute intrinsic evil) then you have only yourself to “moderate” your choice of that as a non-always-evil.

I, on the other hand, have the entire weight of the Church to moderate my choices of what is good and what is evil.

Your potential capriciousness is what makes your “moral decision making process” much more scary than my documentation-and-institution bound process (my having to clear them with the Church).

You are the judgmental one who claims to know the private reflections and motivations of atheist and other sinners you have condemned to Hades.

Your use of “Hades” is informative. You’re one of the “mythologizers”, aren’t you?

But then, since you’re a Randian, that’s not a surprise. I used to be a Randian. I still have quite a bit of respect for some of the insights regarding “enlightened self-interest”. But Rand and her followers tossed the baby out with the bathwater, as all heretics are wont to do.

Atheists (and “liberals”/relativists), like yourself, are a very predictable lot. They call others judgemental because being “judgemental” is the greatest sin of the atheistic mind.

But what does “judgemental” mean to an atheist? It means taking a stand. It means having something to say that is worth saying from that something’s being actually true.

The great atheistic sin is to have something to say that is true, and actually having the effrontery to SAY it out loud!

Atheists are only interested in avoidance of truth, and avoidance of pain by the salve of “comforts”.

Eventually, the avoidance becomes impossible, and the salve becomes caustic.

:shamrock2:

 

[BarbaraTherese]

The only book of Ann Raynd’s I have ever read is “Anthem” and what gave me a smile at the end of the book was that the hero has decided to return to ‘the other reality’ he has escaped and convince as many as he can to come with him to ‘his newly discovered reality’ and what he has found. I thought to myself “and the whole ball starts rolling again” the ball that probably created ‘the other reality’ in the first place…i.e. I have all the answers, now all I have to do is convince all the others that I am right. Another interesting point from Anthem if I recall rightly is that the hero is prepared to fight or go to war over what he has found and so the world rolls on as always with survival of the fittest and ruling of the strongest and eventually absolute power really does corrupthttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_105.gif and this theme underlies the whole book and even in Raynd’s hero finally in “Anthem” as well though unintentionally by her.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

The only book of Ann Raynd’s I have ever read is “Anthem” and what gave me a smile at the end of the book was that the hero has decided to return to ‘the other reality’ he has escaped and convince as many as he can to come with him to ‘his newly discovered reality’ and what he has found. I thought to myself “and the whole ball starts rolling again” the ball that probably created ‘the other reality’ in the first place…i.e. I have all the answers, now all I have to do is convince all the others that I am right. Another interesting point from Anthem if I recall rightly is that the hero is prepared to fight or go to war over what he has found and so the world rolls on as always with survival of the fittest and ruling of the strongest and eventually absolute power really does corrupthttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_105.gif and this theme underlies the whole book and even in Raynd’s hero finally in “Anthem” as well though unintentionally by her.

Yeah, Rand’s (spelled Rand, Ayn Rand, that “y” in the first name throws everyone off! ) philosophy really is very Catholic, which in hindsight is what I found interesting about it, except that “God” is “mechanico-scientific reasoning” from which her “good” characters (as avatars of her philosophical premises) somehow magically derive “enlightened self-interest” (ethically moderated extreme [pure] capitalism).

They can “make their case” (to some extent) that it’s better to be “ethical” only because they already have economic/political power, and those characters who don’t have the power to make their case make it “morally” by being tragic characters who are inevitably shown to be correct by the self-destruction of the creations of the “evil anti-‘enlightened self-interested’”.

The problem with Rand is that she somehow “magically” finds the meaning of good and evil through a “revelation” which we never see. It usually pre-exists in the “good” characters, and is forcefully battled by the “evil” characters within themselves, creating a kind of “self-destruct mechanism” which inevitably goes off.

But, from whence this “revelation” comes is NEVER discussed! It is merely assumed, and not “findable” by the non-elite. It is the enlightened self-interested elite who are to “guide” the masses toward the “god” of enlightened self-interest.

I was quite the Randian for a while, there. But the utter lack of an answer to where “ethics” come from proved to be it’s fatal flaw, and pointed me, rather directly, to something “similar” in tone (very REAL but also very “good oriented”) but having that “one missing item”.

The missing item being “true authority” to state the truth as true, instead of stating the truth as “most probable”. And that required God, and God’s “mechanism” to convey historic/eternal truth.

:shamrock2:

 

[BarbaraTherese]

…mmm…Just had a quick look on the internet and some seem to spell it Rand, others Raynd. I am pretty sure the book I read spelt it Raynd, otherwise I would have spelt it the normal way of Rand. Not to worry!

Anyway…to the rest of your Post…ammmm…errrr…yeah! what you said! Which here in Aussie Land is another way of saying “Boy, I sure dont understand what all that meant”. I am afraid you go way above me. Start talking in isms, osphies, ialities and most often I start to get lost …and this is my poverty not yours. I am simply not at that level intellectually nor think at those levels…nor could if I wanted to do so, which to be absolutely honest I dont as it all seems like too hard work for such as I to undertake. I do have passing moments only, rare seconds! when I think that perhaps I should apply myself and some obvious benefits that I can sight…but then the hard work phobia clicks into place and since I am not thus gifted, not my call and not my vocation…to quote Bob Dylan on another matter.

Even such as I, however, could find holes in “Anthem” and after reading in “Anthem” something about her philosophy and reasoning behind the work, decided that Ann Rand was not one of my favourite authors at all, which disturbed my teacher who was an avid fan and evanglist for her theories and conclusions.

God bless and many Joys and Peace at this special season to you and yours…Barb

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[Kuzushi]

Kuzushi…but it seems to me that you do presume that you know it all?

I don’t see how you get that. Please provide an example. The burden of proof lies with Christians since they are the one saying that “miracles” occur.

Can you be totally and absolutely sure you have not missed something?..and perhaps something that others can see? After all, I could be looking at the tree…and someone else says “Can you see the cat and the tree”. And I tell them that they are imagining things. Then I shift my perspective slightly towards theirs and see the cat standing behind the tree

Nope, I am not sure if I am missing something. That is why I am at this forum. However, when you and I go to the tree, walk around it, and search high and low without seeing the cat I will start to think you are either mistaken, or you just want to see a cat so bad that you have imagined it.

Every person is entitled to experience reality from their own ground of being…can this alter or change reality, know it cannot - only the way a person receives and understands it, which after all is an aspect of reality

Reality is reality and perceptions do not change it. I am just after the truth, but no one has presented it so far.

About miracles, you claim (Kuzushki) that because limbs do not grow back on that miracles do not happen and in order for you to believe that miracles do happen, you need to know that limbs have grown back on…can you not see that you are asking God to behave after your demands?

No, most of you are missing the distinction I have made. I think most Christians are simply too easily convinced of miracles. I have already said that ANY intervention of the creator of the universe in the life of a human MUST, by definition, be a miracle. Therefore, if God will help people find their keys, give them a job, help them ace a test, or remove some mysterious pain in their neck one would logically expect that the occasional limb should grow back too. This has never been show to be the case so isn’t it possible that all these other “miracles” are just things that would have happened anyway? So maybe God is simply not in the miracle producing business anymore. Why? I don’t know. Maybe something has changed in the cosmos.

And again and firstly, because you have no knowledge of (exterior?) limbs growing back on can you be asolutely sure that they categorically never have? There are certainly proven incidences of diseased internal organs being completely healed without any medical explanation.

No I am not sure if any limbs have ever grown back, but no one on this forum has ever given any evidence to this. Lets be honest, if this does occur it would make headlines. If all these miracles are indeed flying around limb re-growth should be fairly common. As to other proven incidents I am usually disappointed at the vagueness and age of these “miracles.” When you read about healings in the Bible the authors do not give much detail, but can you imagine the scene?

The blind man given site would be happily running around seeing trees, flowers, his children, etc for the first time. The lame would be dancing down the street. If miracles REALLY occur where is all the hoopla? No there is only nature and natural events. Sometimes cancer goes into remission and sometimes pain goes away as fast as it came. There are no miraculous interventions from an omnipotent creator. The sooner you learn that the faster you will be on the road to true enlightenment.

You also discount as irrelevant prayers that may not have produced cures asked, but have produced a sense of lasting Peace that is totally all inclusive and inexplicable in that there is no obvious reason for the sense of all pervading Peace other than prayer.

Sorry, I get that by just walking in the woods. Many others claim to get it from meditating. God, per se, has nothing to do with it.

Why dont exterior limbs grow back if God can do all things and miracles occur …dunno frankly

Well, a logical critically thinking person should then suspect that maybe these other “miracles” were simply the result of positive thinking. Why do so many Christians doubt the power of the human to persevere and change his situation through natural methods? A limb growing back would violate the laws of physics and we humans certainly can not do that. This just makes me believe all the more that “miracles” from God are just fiction.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I am simply not at that level intellectually nor think at those levels…nor could if I wanted to do so, which to be absolutely honest I dont as it all seems like too hard work for such as I to undertake.

You are no idiot. Your thinking processes are just fine, believe me. You are also right in seeing being “hyper-intellectual” as more of a pain in ones’ own (and other’s) “donkey” than it is a boon.

I’m certainly no brain-trust, especially in “practical matters”, and have a constant battle with my own pretentious and prideful “intellectuo-technical-speak”, which is constantly having me tripping over myself to show the world that REAL stupidity requires “seeming (faux) intellectualism” such as I demonstrate with nearly profound alacrity. <chortle, chortle, chortle!>

If I actually HAD any sort of real higher education I’d be a REAL freakin’ hazard to humanity! Smart people can make a goodly mess of things, but to REALLY muck things up requires a Ph.D.!

(( 'Though, a Masters in just the right hands… ))

…but then the hard work phobia clicks into place and since I am not thus gifted, not my call and not my vocation…to quote Bob Dylan on another matter.

Nearly the whole of my “spiritual development” is concerned with my addiction to Sloth, it seems. Perhaps less time blithering in Catholic fori and more time in “the real world” would be a good idea? ( The answer to that is: Yes. )

Even such as I, however, could find holes in “Anthem” and after reading in “Anthem” something about her philosophy and reasoning behind the work, decided that Ann Rand was not one of my favourite authors at all, which disturbed my teacher who was an avid fan and evanglist for her theories and conclusions.

God bless and many Joys and Peace at this special season to you and yours…Barb

I’ve never actually gotten through a single Rand work, awake. I did try to listen to Atlas Shrugged (audiobook some 50+ hours long!), and fell asleep far too often. I’ve also “skimmed” various of the other “philosophical” treatises (the weirdness on www.aynrand.org for example), but they are unbearably boring, on the whole.

So, how could I say I was a Randian aficionado? Easily. The basics of “Objectivism” are ridiculously easy to “parrot”. A “theory” as practically preposterous as Objectivism, which is so thoroughly unlikely to happen in real life because of it’s “utopianism”, is easy to “preach” if you just remember it’s few basic tenets and admit that those tenets are unworkable if implemented by “mere humans”.

It’s a perfect stance for an elitist blowhard, such as I was (am?)!

So, becoming first bored, then annoyed, at my being a blowhard elitist, I found that my only hope presented itself when I discovered I was Catholic.

…, and so, here I am.

:shamrock2:

 

[Kuzushi]

I certainly have no authority whatsoever to speak about actual truths other than as a “vehicle” for the Church.

LOL, no you certainly don’t, but that has not stopped you from just making it all up as you go along.

We, Catholics, who invented the scientific method, are also quite aware that scientific theories are “what works”

Really? Then why did the Church give Copernicus and Galileo such a hard time?

Once again, your desperate need to make God, and His people, evil is dragging you gleefully (at the moment) down that staircase into a posthumous suffering that you’ll find most unpleasant.

Uh…oh, I am not sure but I think you just condemned me to hell again. I don’t think you are supposed to do that Pope….er…Cats and Dogs.

 

[Kuzushi]

I was quite the Randian for a while, there. But the utter lack of an answer to where “ethics” come from proved to be it’s fatal flaw,

Why? Can’t you simply BE ethical? Why do you need someone to hold your hand?

I do agree with you that Rand can be quite boring and hard to get through. I like the objectivist and libertarian stance on economic issues because I believe in the Kudlow creed that free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity. (Larry Kudlow is a converted Catholic by the way.)

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
I certainly have no authority whatsoever to speak about actual truths other than as a “vehicle” for the Church.

LOL, no you certainly don’t, but that has not stopped you from just making it all up as you go along.

I make up the order of the various words that I use (with the occasional “coinage” of words that SHOULD exist but have apparently not needed to be until my “discovery” of their need! ), but the actual content that I illustrate is hardly what I would have come up with with my feeble little mind!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
We, Catholics, who invented the scientific method, are also quite aware that scientific theories are “what works”

Really? Then why did the Church give Copernicus and Galileo such a hard time?

Copernicus

Galileo

…I realize your religion MUST have the “(so-called) war between science and religion” be an ongoing and destructive conflict, but that’s an atheistic problem, and not a Catholic one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
Once again, your desperate need to make God, and His people, evil is dragging you gleefully (at the moment) down that staircase into a posthumous suffering that you’ll find most unpleasant.

Uh…oh, I am not sure but I think you just condemned me to hell again. I don’t think you are supposed to do that Pope….er…Cats and Dogs.

Just as I don’t “send people to the Macy’s Bargain Basement” by watching them take the “Down Escalator”, I’m not “sending” you anywhere.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
I was quite the Randian for a while, there. But the utter lack of an answer to where “ethics” come from proved to be it’s fatal flaw,

Why? Can’t you simply BE ethical? Why do you need someone to hold your hand?

Only God can simple “be”.

All others need help “being”, especially those who don’t know what they should “be” in the first place.

I need someone to hold my hand because it’s my job to hold the hand that is offered me by the One whose job is to hold my hand to guide me!

You may choose to do “it” the hard way. That’s fine, I suppose. I’m more interested in doing the right thing than finding the (hopefully) right thing.

I do agree with you that Rand can be quite boring and hard to get through. I like the objectivist and libertarian stance on economic issues because I believe in the Kudlow creed that free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity. (Larry Kudlow is a converted Catholic by the way.)

I also believe that free market capitalism, as “operated” by devout Catholics, is the best path to (stable) prosperity.

Capitalism “operated” by any other brand of people transforms itself, cyclically, into socialist-slavery and hypercapitalistic-slavery.

Libertarianism results invariably in (protestant denomination-like) factionalism, and the loss of “prosperity” by internecine (civil) war.

“Objectivism” requires “perfect masters”, which simply don’t happen in the appropriate quantity.

:shamrock2:

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Why? Can’t you simply BE ethical? Why do you need someone to hold your hand?

Ethics may not be a simple subject, which is why we have schools of philosophy - whose entire point is dedicated to ethics. It may not be humble to trust in one’s own ethics, after all Hitler wanted to “save Germany” and Stalin, who initially started training in seminary and dropped out, followed Communism - based on “social justice and securing rights for the poor” and slaveowners quoted the Bible “slaves obey your masters.” At various time in history entire nations have supported slavery, genocide, oppression of women, homosexual marriage, and abortion. The Catholic Church is the only institution that I know of yet that might have had the correct ethical response to each social problem at the correct time.

See the example of slavery, strong and consistent laws since the 17th century (the same century the Bible was made Canon) catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0006.html
See the example of genocide, according to the Jewish Virtual Library, the ONLY church that condemned forced sterilization of the mentally ill during the Holocaust because of the pro-life doctrine: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/disabled.html
See the example of moral laws on physical intimacy such as on marriage, excluding homosexuality, some research suggests they were the reason why Western Civilization reached scientific progress catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html

Now we face controversies on abortion, death penalty, and gay marriage. Each side argues their side through ethics.
Abortion: protect innocent human life vs. do not enslave women to their bodies
Death Penalty: punish criminal offenders vs. protect human life
Gay Marriage: allow everyone to have the freedom to decide which gender they want to marry vs. uphold the God-given institution of marriage that the very foundations of Judeo-Christian civilization are built upon, without which the civilization may destroy itself as Western Europe may be doing right now

How might one decide with 100% certainty which is the higher ethical principle? It is not right for women to be enslaved but life is more important in this case according to a theologically developed pro-life doctrine. Might ethics be ultimately more complicated than physics if the Ph.D. is a Doctor of Philosophy, and they name the degree that all Ph.D’s receive after Philosophy instead of Physics.

Thank you for your time and consideration in reading this message and responding so diligently to so many posts!

May the Holy Spirit through Mary grace us with the gifts that we most deperately need, particularly an abudance of open-mindedness, long-suffering, patience, love, mercy, truthfulness, happiness, trust, faith, and consideration of others!! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be adored, glorified, loved, respected, revered, honored, known, and trusted in by all creation, in all of time, by all souls!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be loved, known, believed, respected, and honored by all souls, in all time, by all creation!! AMEN!! AMEN!! AMEN!!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Hail

 

[AveSantaMaria]

No I am not sure if any limbs have ever grown back, but no one on this forum has ever given any evidence to this. Lets be honest, if this does occur it would make headlines. If all these miracles are indeed flying around limb re-growth should be fairly common. As to other proven incidents I am usually disappointed at the vagueness and age of these “miracles.” When you read about healings in the Bible the authors do not give much detail, but can you imagine the scene?

The blind man given site would be happily running around seeing trees, flowers, his children, etc for the first time. The lame would be dancing down the street.

Perhaps God wants to work through people the majority of the time instead of without them, after all he created us and he created science, why shouldn’t he want us to use science to help others.

Maybe the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano published in a medical journal Quad Sclavo Digan? Maybe that miracle cannot be explained away except as a bonfide supernatural event. How else can a communion wafer magically change into a piece of flesh with a blood-type commonly found in Palestine and this piece of flesh survive for centuries without disintegrating? Maybe the tilda miracle of the Blessed Virgin in Guadalupe, Mexico converted 9 million peasants because it was just so amazing. alienjigsaw.com/guadalup.html This miracle has been reputed to have been examined by NASA scientists and Noble Prize winning scholar Richard Kuhn.

Maybe another theory on why God works less obvious miracles now is that maybe God ultimately works miracles to direct us to have faith him. So Christ has to work the most so we will have the most faith in him! And the disciples so that people will believe and the Church will spread despite Christ’s crucifixion, but now maybe he is working the most obvious miracles to point us to the most important aspects of the faith that has already been spread, the Eucharist and the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Crucifixion. Maybe that’s why St. Faustina’s miracles are so clear-cut compared to those of other saints, thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3204 and thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3212 so God can highlight the Divine Mercy and if he worked every miracle with such obviousness, we might get confused about what is most important in our faith and start venerating the miracle-worker instead of venerating Jesus and Mary. Maybe the saint who is to come who will work the most miracles is the one with the greatest faith, who most obviously and directly points people back to Jesus and Mary and the Cross. But I may not know what I am talking about.

Anyways, on detail and imagination of the scene, maybe this reputed miracle has a lot of detail, Miguel Juan Pellicer, the amputated leg, and extreme devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary - clairval.com/lettres/en/2006/12/08/2061206.htm

May the Holy Spirit through the Immaculate Heart of Mary grant us the graces that we most desperately need, particularly love, mercy, trust, open-mindness, fairness, open hearts, and kindness and consideration for others!! May the LOVE and MERCY of the Sacred Heart of Jesus be known, loved, believed, adored, glorified, trusted, venerated, and spread throughout all creation, in all souls, for all time!! May the WONDERS of the Immaculate Heart of Mary be known, believed, venerated, repected, and loved in all places, in all souls, in all time!! AMEN!! AMEN!! AMEN!!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[Kuzushi]

Atheists (and “liberals”/relativists), like yourself, are a very predictable lot. They call others judgemental because being “judgemental” is the greatest sin of the atheistic mind.

Did you just cal me a liberal? If you knew me you would see how funny and inaccurate that is. Throughout our postings you have said things like atheist want everyone to be a robot, etc. Go back and check this is what you said. When you grossly misstate the arguments, beliefs, motives, and actions of those who believe different from you it becomes apparent that your mind is closed and you loose credibility and respect. Those who hold opposing points of view who have less patience than I will read your comments and just right you off as ignorant.

You have also made several innuendos that hinted I am bound for hell. That is certainly out of line and even the Pope would not make these statements. You seem to have started your own version of Catholosism that I do not recognize. Perhaps you need to return to Suday school.

Your use of “Hades” is informative. You’re one of the “mythologizers”, aren’t you?

Ok I will bite; what is a mythologizer? I know we discussed this in an earlier post and I proved to you that in ancient Greek the term “Hades” is indeed interchangeable with “hell.” The bottom line is that you are being anal about a term you can not POSSIBLLY know anything about for certain. Your “intellectual pride” makes you smug that you know some esoteric factoid that you have merely parroted back here. The Church, you, and anyone else is merely putting fourth theories about the mechanics of the afterlife. Once again; you don’t even know that you don’t know.

 

[Kuzushi]

Perhaps God wants to work through people the majority of the time instead of without them, after all he created us and he created science, why shouldn’t he want us to use science to help others

I question if God had anything to do with science. It was man’s quest for knowledge and truth that SLOWLY evolved science and engineering. In the meantime millions of people suffered and died in terrible ways. Don’they matter? The church often did not help because it worked against scientist and accused them of “heretical ideas.”

Maybe the tilda miracle of the Blessed Virgin in Guadalupe, Mexico converted 9 million peasants because it was just so amazing. alienjigsaw.com/guadalup.html

AVS, why are all these “miracles you site always back in some rural farm country in the 19th century or before? Be honest with yourself. If a REAL MIRACLE were to happen it would be on the front page of the newspapers and the people involved would be on all the talk shows. It would not be relegated to some obscure website that no one ever sees. When ever an unbiased researcher looks at these things it seems other plausible explanations are found.

I can see you are very committed to your faith, you are spiritual, and you spend a lot of time researching esoteric facts. I think you need to ask yourself why most of the things you find are obviously very biased, dogmatic, and hidden away. I am not trying to tell you how to live your life, but in my opinion you need to be a little more critical in your thinking. You are obviously very bright, but I think an unexamined life will dull ones senses. Form YOUR OWN opinions. Don’t look to ANY group or ANY one to dictate how you should think or live your life.

 

[Kuzushi]

I realize your religion MUST have the “(so-called) war between science and religion” be an ongoing and destructive conflict, but that’s an atheistic problem, and not a Catholic one.

My original statement is that the Catholic Church gave Copernicus and Galileo a hard time. After reading your references I have not changed my mind. Am I supposed to approve of the Church’s actions because Galileo’s prison was “comfortable”? What is your point? The sources you gave were nothing but a series of admittance that the church did something bad and was wrong but then they would backpedal and say it is not like it seems. Give me a break. These sources were also a Catholic reference that is obviously biased.

I saw a series on this on the History Channel that listed a series of sources. If you are interested and courageous enough you should seek out unbiased sources that show what really happened in the dark history of the Church. While you are doing that check out what Pope Innocent did to encourage the execution of “witches.” Terrible stuff indeed!

Just as I don’t “send people to the Macy’s Bargain Basement” by watching them take the “Down Escalator”, I’m not “sending” you anywhere

You are making a judgment about where I may spend eternity and the church does not allow any one person to make this decision. Your “opinion” is also base on inaccurate and incomplete information.

 

[Michael_David]

All this is interesting in the fact that ONE thing is being looked for.

How will this be found… and determined?

I look at the highest Court in the land, the Supreme Court… and see Conservative Judges, Liberal Judges and those in-between. How can information be given to this court, all the Judges review it, and come up with DIFFERENT ends??? The majority wins! BUT, and this is the BIG one, only one judge should be needed to decide any case IF they were fully informed and had NO BIASes.

How can a judge, by very definition of UN-BIAS, be labeled with BIAS terms?

Yes, Kuzushi, you tell others to form their own opinions… seems the varied Supreme Court Judges have done just that with their own bias (bend). If reason and logic (add legal-law to this) should always come out with the same results, why doesn’t it? And then in this thread, FAITH is injected, and this means different things to different people… and perhaps, nothing to some. How does one explain faith to one (that forms their own opinions) that has never ‘experienced’ it?

Perhaps that is what you are after… experience!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs View Post
Atheists (and “liberals”/relativists), like yourself, are a very predictable lot. They call others judgemental because being “judgemental” is the greatest sin of the atheistic mind.

Did you just cal me a liberal? If you knew me you would see how funny and inaccurate that is.

Those who support the “liberative” principle(s) of “do as your conscience dictates is best (regardless of the formation of that conscience)” is a LIBERAL.

That is what I mean by liberal. You have actually said that you lean economically toward “libertarianism” (which is classical liberalism) as well as toward “objectivistic” Randianism, which is also classical mercantile liberalism (so-called “enlightenment” economics: Plutocracy).

Throughout our postings you have said things like atheist want everyone to be a robot, etc. Go back and check this is what you said. When you grossly misstate the arguments, beliefs, motives, and actions of those who believe different from you it becomes apparent that your mind is closed and you loose credibility and respect. Those who hold opposing points of view who have less patience than I will read your comments and just right you off as ignorant.

That’s why this is a “free market” of ideas. So that the “audience” can make up it’s own mind as to what it finds interesting, and what not.

You, like all liberals, would have opinions which you deem as “inferior” (from the “closed minded” and “ignorant” such as myself) simply censored (prefereably self-censored so as not to dirty your hands by responding to them).

I love hearing from liberals/atheists. They make the case for their “opposition” so well by unmasking their own foolishness. The more they are heard, the more they “lose” their case.

I simply (and most probably simplistically ) state what I believe is the truth, and watch liberals/atheists/dissenters break like the tide against the rocks of the Church.

Now, I’m really not that thrilled with that particular analogy, as the tide does inevitably win the “battle”, but that of course is where the analogy fails, as the rock of the Church will never be broken.

You have also made several innuendos that hinted I am bound for hell. That is certainly out of line and even the Pope would not make these statements.

I have no idea if you are bound for hell. I do recognize the signs of one headed that way, though, by the evidence presented. You’ve presented apparent evidence that you are someone who knows OF God and yet rejects God, willfully. That is the nearly definitional description of one headed for hell.

But the game ain’t over til the game’s over, is it?

What I see in myself, with information that you don’t have access to as I haven’t made it known to you, is one who is also headed for hell if his ways aren’t changed. Does that make me “judgemental” or simply realistic of what I do know?

I don’t send people to hell. God doesn’t send people to hell. People send themselves, and only themselves, to hell, and when it seems that someone may be sending themselves there it’s simple charity to try to warn them of their possible error(s). Don’tcha think?

You seem to have started your own version of Catholosism that I do not recognize. Perhaps you need to return to Suday school.

Well, disregarding the spelling boo-boos in your previous couple of sentences, I would suggest you educate yourself in what the Church actually DOES say, and compare what “your” recognition of Catholicism is versus actual Catholicism.

Best to you!

:shamrock2:

 

[Kuzushi]

I need someone to hold my hand because it’s my job to hold the hand that is offered me by the One whose job is to hold my hand to guide me!

Anyone with half a brain knows right from wrong. Even the criminally insane will usually try to hide their actions from police. There are many moral atheists, Moslems, Buddhist, etc. Look around you and out of your small circle of friends in the church. There is a whole world out there!

Capitalism “operated” by any other brand of people transforms itself, cyclically, into socialist-slavery and hypercapitalistic-slavery.

The United States is a perfect example of capitalism operated by many “brands of people.” There certainly is no “slavery” here, and our system is still the envy of the world. Just because you say something is true does not make it so. If you believe these extreme views then prove them with actual examples. Otherwise it is just empty theory.

Those who support the “liberative” principle(s) of “do as your conscience dictates is best (regardless of the formation of that conscience)” is a LIBERAL.

You either have not been paying attention or you just like to make things up. I think it is the latter since you have an apparent tendency to assume a lot about things you do not know. But then it is also apparent you just don’t know a lot as well.

I have never espoused the “if it feels good do it” philosophy you are crediting to me. Please prove where I have said it, or admit you are lying.

I love hearing from liberals/atheists. They make the case for their “opposition” so well by unmasking their own foolishness. The more they are heard, the more they “lose” their case.

This is just more hyperbole on your part. You are writing it because you can not offer any solid logic for your case. Instead of sticking to the facts you make pathetic ad hominem attacks on me that don’t mean a thing. What do you want me to say: “I know you are but what am I? Give me a break!

That is what I mean by liberal. You have actually said that you lean economically toward “libertarianism” (which is classical liberalism) as well as toward “objectivistic” Randianism, which is also classical mercantile liberalism (so-called “enlightenment” economics: Plutocracy).

Am I supposed to be impressed? You are just playing a semantic game. Back in the 1700’s the revolutionary forefathers of the United States would also be called “liberal” because they wanted to break from the tyranny of Britan. So yes, back then I would be right with them so I would have been labeled a liberal. That label certainly does not fit my politics or economic beliefs now.

As for libertarian thought I can not imagine any economic philosophy that would be in the liberal camp. Lower taxes? Less regulation? You simply do not know what you are talking about.

I would suggest you educate yourself in what the Church actually DOES say, and compare what “your” recognition of Catholicism is versus actual Catholicism

I also suggest you do the same, but use some real unbiased sources. For example, your ignorance of how the church treated Galileo for his “blasphemy” while all the while believing that the church invented “scientific method” is laughable. How would you feel if a communist atheist state suspended your freedoms and put you in “comfortable” apartment while they decided what to do with you because of your Christian beliefs?

 

[CatsAndDogs]

…

Have a great day, Kuz.

There PROBABLY won’t be any further hitting of the “View Post” links on your “ignored” posts happening by me.

I’m not interested in juvenile discussions.

I am more than happy that you may think that you’ve “won” your conversation with me, though. Atheists flushed with “victory” <chuckle!> are quite amusing.

:shamrock2:

 

[Kuzushi]

I’m not interested in juvenile discussions.

Nor am I. The fact is that throughout our discourse you have said atheist are this, atheist are that….it has all been presumption on your part. You have not given any facts. The dirty secret that you have missed is that I have never said I am an atheist. THAT IS YOUR ASSUMPTION. If conclusion jumping were an Olympic sport you would have a gold my man!

I still enjoyed our discussion because even though we disagree you have a warrior attitude. I respect that more than the “just be nice” people. Good luck to you.