Is Faith necessary to know that God exists?

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The Documents of Vatican II state “One Can Know God By the Natural Light of Human Reason”.

If this is true - is FAITH necessary to know that God exists?

I acknowledge the statement of Vatican II is TRUE. Therefore FAITH is NOT necessary to know that God exists.

What then does require Faith?
 
Seeing as how one cannot prove or disprove the existance of god then yes you need to have faith to “know” god exists in the first place.
 
j1akey said:
Seeing as how one cannot prove or disprove the existance of god then yes you need to have faith to “know” god exists in the first place.
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I refer you back to the statement made by the Documents of Vatican II - that man is able to know that God exists by the light of natural reason. This is not my opinion, but rather a statement made by the Catholic Church. Do you refute the Catholic Church’s claim?
 
that man is able to know that God exists by the light of natural reason. This is not my opinion, but rather a statement made by the Catholic Church.
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It may not be your opinion but it’s someones opinion for sure. Just becuase some guys wrote up some papers back in the 60’s saying it, that doesn’t make it universally true for everyone. The people who wrote them obviously believed in god so they’re going to write up some texts to support their beliefs based on nothing but their own faith. Religion by its very nature is based on faith.

Natural Reason is also subtext for Natural Theology and had it’s roots with Thomas Aquinas. It basically means using human phylosophy and reasoning to know god and the study of god based on the observation of nature.

So yes I do refute the Catholic Churches claim. The church is not all knowing and is not infalable. It’s run by man and man wrote those texts. The church writes things to support its views and people who already believe will take it as fact. Those who don’t are going to need more than “because the church wrote it, it much be true”.
 
I think the word “know” needs refinement. Native human reason cannot deny the possibility of God’s existence. The image that appeals to me is that of a person at the foot of a mountain from the top of which smoke is emanating. The person could conclude among the possibilities that an intellect is present on the mountain top and has made a fire.

Reason is a peak, in that sense, in and of itself. “Climbing” to the peak of reason, one may ascertain more detail as to the activity on the mountain top. At a certain point, however, one must conclude that if an intellect occupies a mountain whereas reason occupies a peak, it is not possible to look down upon the mountain from a mere peak to know the details of the activity upon it.

Therefore I would venture that a belief in the existence of God is rational (is, in fact, a possibility universally accepted by man in his native state) but that the knowledge of God is revealed and a matter of faith.
 
I remember walking on Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley, CA, and seeing a street preacher accosting people with a microphone in hand. His single question was: “Are you practicing a religion *about *Jesus Christ, or are you here and now the Son/Daughter of the Living God?” I think that that is a wonderflul example of distinguishing the difference between knowing God on one hand either by faith or natural reason, and on the other hand knowing God directly as an experience. And to me, that is where the Church is weak in its teaching. It promotes faith, reason, and traditon as avenues for what ultimatly can only be a direct experience. Direct experience trumps faith, reason, tradition, teaching. and scripture combined.
 
If the knowledge of God is best derived by direct experience, then the seeker of knowledge cannot command his discipline since he cannot create the opportunity for the experience. It presumes God’s willingness to reveal himself individually. Individual revelation absent a community to prove it implies a selectivity on God’s part contrary to love. The knowledge of God would then be wholly subjective, the truth of that knowledge conditional and the value of that knowledge completely individual.

For sure, in the end, the relationship is between God and the individual. As the OP implies, however, there must be a means to arrive at that end.
 
There is, and religion is a shadow of it. Yes, knowledge of God is entirely subjective, what we are able to discuss as the points on here being the “about” part, being in the realm of subject/object awareness, which yet is part of the Whole, but incomplete on its own.
 
Detales said:
There is, and religion is a shadow of it. Yes, knowledge of God is entirely subjective, what we are able to discuss as the points on here being the “about” part, being in the realm of subject/object awareness, which yet is part of the Whole, but incomplete on its own.
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Let us then count you as an existentialist, with all the particular difficulties with existentialism applying.
 
jkiernan56 said:
The Documents of Vatican II state “One Can Know God By the Natural Light of Human Reason”.

If this is true - is FAITH necessary to know that God exists?

I acknowledge the statement of Vatican II is TRUE. Therefore FAITH is NOT necessary to know that God exists.

What then does require Faith?
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Everyone who knows God, knows God through direct experience. It has always been this way.
 
As true as that actually is, Geo, there is a vast difference between the fact and the belief that one knows. The posting above regarding the street preacher is really quite an important distincton to make, as the vast majority of religionists are in the “about” catagory thinking they are in the “know” catagory. It might be of interest in this regard to read and think about *The Neuroscience of Illusion *by Teller of Penn and Teller, and gain some understanding of how we tell ourselves stories we live and die by and their general irrelevance to actuality. Waking up is good to do. Other good things to consider are the 100+ logical falacies built into common speach, the dualistic nature of English grammer with its incorrect tenses of the verb “to be,” assorted works on teleology and epistemology, and of course the much neglected introspective work surrounding the methods and means by which we aquire and retain religious beliefs in the face of contrary eveidence. A course in General Semanitcs could help. And an understanding of relative contextual analysis might be helpful as well. What we don’t see because we don’t want to could fill a universe! Imagine that!
 
Detales said:
As true as that actually is, Geo, there is a vast difference between the fact and the belief that one knows. The posting above regarding the street preacher is really quite an important distincton to make, as the vast majority of religionists are in the “about” catagory thinking they are in the “know” catagory. It might be of interest in this regard to read and think about *The Neuroscience of Illusion *by Teller of Penn and Teller, and gain some understanding of how we tell ourselves stories we live and die by and their general irrelevance to actuality. Waking up is good to do. Other good things to consider are the 100+ logical falacies built into common speach, the dualistic nature of English grammer with its incorrect tenses of the verb “to be,” assorted works on teleology and epistemology, and of course the much neglected introspective work surrounding the methods and means by which we aquire and retain religious beliefs in the face of contrary eveidence. A course in General Semanitcs could help. And an understanding of relative contextual analysis might be helpful as well. What we don’t see because we don’t want to could fill a universe! Imagine that!
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Are you trying to say that you have no direct experiences of God? Its alright you can say it, I will understand…
 
geometer said:
Everyone who knows God, knows God through direct experience. It has always been this way.
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In my understanding and experience, there is a huge difference between knowing THAT God exists to WHO God is.

That God is can be determined by the light of natural reason.
WHO God is requires Faith by the light of God’s revelation about Himself.
We would never know WHO God is unless God revealed this to us. This knowledge and understanding can only be gained by FAITH.
 
That works for a while, 56, but a very productive question far too easily dismised by christianists is “What is God.” We blithly say that God is ALL, and don’t percieve an iota of the ramifications that that has on faith. The very importance of the question is clouded by faith.
 
jkiernan56 said:
The Documents of Vatican II state “One Can Know God By the Natural Light of Human Reason”.

If this is true - is FAITH necessary to know that God exists?

I acknowledge the statement of Vatican II is TRUE. Therefore FAITH is NOT necessary to know that God exists.

What then does require Faith?
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It is necessary.
People need faith in God, just as much as people seek to have and strengthen their faith in their human relations on Earth or the abstract concepts of concrete knowledge (Math, physics) and scientific/philosophical theories (ongoing empirical studies, projections etc…to the big natural things, to the little things, we display faith every which way) during man’s experience in life.

It’s not as much to know God does, or “might” exist for someone.
Faith needs to be involved because it’s part of one’s will, and respect for him.

Faith = Trust (Also it should be noted that Faith understood in Catholicism is not assumed to be “blind” as some might. hence the Reason.)

When Jesus talks about those who’ve pleased him, from the Jews, to gentiles to his own disciples in his encounters, all of their displays of faith, or lack thereof,

It’s not so much to have God standing right there in front of them alluding to his existence, or for you right now to see something in your personal experience to say “hey, there probably is a creator” people have to willingly trust and take him seriously.

Faith in God is acknowledging that, if we can trust in, or have faith in our best friends, or mothers, fathers, or good humble leaders …or have faith in a proven absolute in a particular field in our experiences,
then we should be able to have faith in the being that came before, and was always before, all these other things we have faith in came into formation…there is no reason for us to not lend that Faith in God himself if we know him…

How much more trustworthy is God than, our most trustworthy friends and family, who strive to not let you down and have proven it to you at times?

So yes, it’s not enough to know or concede that God exists or see him through reason and logic, if you believe. Or merely say 'I believe because this or that philosopher observed, or this event happened way back when before the Church, or the church presents this… or my believing friends say this. ’
Nor say, “well, I defer to the Church about God, and what they say of him…I’m good…and relax”

You have to trust in him fully as well, in what is being proposed to you…

Then you will take seriously, or at least ponder, and begin to reflect more his word, his message, his will.

Faith & Reason are emphasized in the Catholic teaching about the truth…not Faith OR Reason.
Recognizing the importance of both, insure works to follow…
jkiernan56 said:
In my understanding and experience, there is a huge difference between knowing THAT God exists to WHO God is.

That God is can be determined by the light of natural reason.
WHO God is requires Faith by the light of God’s revelation about Himself.
We would never know WHO God is unless God revealed this to us. This knowledge and understanding can only be gained by FAITH.
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So why did you start the thread topic again? 🙂

But yeah, I’ll agree with that…
The knowledge and understand we’ve gained of God, by those who came before us who had Faith in him.
But it takes reasonable people to acknowledge those people and make up in their minds to trust in both those people who had faith, as well as their own acknowledgment and faith in the Lord himself and what we’ve come to know and reason about the world we see before us ourselves & in relation to God (and life…etc. etc.)
 
Veridical16 said:
It is necessary.

Faith & Reason are emphasized in the Catholic teaching about the truth…not Faith OR Reason. Recognizing the importance of both, insure works to follow…

So why did you start the thread topic again? 🙂
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I started this thread to make people think.

You are right that there are many facets to understanding Faith.

The 'Obedience of Faith" is much different than acknowledging something is TRUE.
Everyone needs the kind of Faith you speak about.

It does not take Faith for me to know that God exists.
It does not take faith for me to know that the Constitution of the United States exists.
But I no longer have faith in our elected officials who supposively are the “will of the people” within the rule of law according to the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
 
jkiernan56 said:
The Documents of Vatican II state “One Can Know God By the Natural Light of Human Reason”.

If this is true - is FAITH necessary to know that God exists?

I acknowledge the statement of Vatican II is TRUE. Therefore FAITH is NOT necessary to know that God exists.

What then does require Faith?
Click to expand...
Perhaps Faith is required to be a Christian. Maybe the “Natural Light of Human Reason” will only get you as far as Paganism.
 
Veridical16 said:
Faith & Reason are emphasized in the Catholic teaching about the truth…not Faith OR Reason.

Recognizing the importance of both, insure works to follow…
Click to expand...
Faith requires Reason. It is not a blind leap into the darkness based on what someone else has told us.

Vatican II says that man can know that God exists by the “light of natural reason”. In other words, it does not take Faith to know that God exists.

Reason will bring us to the door. Faith allows us to enter through the door and see what is in the room 🙂
 
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