Is Freewill compatible with Determinism?

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Al_Moritz said:
Our intellective skills, our rationality, depend on freewill.
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Obviously, both intellective skills and free will are given to us immediately and together as inherent in the spiritual soul. So one does not proceed from the other.

While I am not sure all that is involved in “determinism”, it seems to me that animals with highly developed sentience would be in the category of determinism. It is observable that the actions of animals are limited in that they cannot go against their animal nature and natural skills of survival, etc. Thus, even though animals can choose actions, they do not possess free will. We, too, have highly developed sentience and survival skills, etc. We can choose our actions. The difference is that we can choose actions which are beyond our natural skills and also actions which go against our own natural good.

Therefore, the OP statement: “I don’t believe in absolute metaphysical or physical determinism.” is correct in humans. However, in humans, there is more to free will than the OP definition: "Freewill = the idea that one is not forced to make any particular choice if and when a series of possibilities is presented.
 
grannymh said:
While I am not sure all that is involved in “determinism”, it seems to me that animals with highly developed sentience would be in the category of determinism. It is observable that the actions of animals are limited in that they cannot go against their animal nature and natural skills of survival, etc. Thus, even though animals can choose actions, they do not possess free will.
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If they can truly produce actions according to there own “will”, as opposed to producing an action that is sole derived from a chain of causally deterministic mechanisms and processes, then they are not absolutely determined to ends by physical law alone and thus they have freewill. Its meaningless to speak of choice except as either an analogy to freewill, or as referring to freewill itself. Animals act to particular ends out of instinct based upon the teleological information in their brain and genetic make up. Humans also have some instincts and our bound to some degree by law, but they can will them selves to there own ends; this is to say that our actions are not sole derived from a chain of causally deterministic mechanisms and physical processes.

We perceive teleological (goal driven) information in animals and thus it is easy to think that that the information originates in some kind of animal intellect, when in reality that information originates in God. It does not originate in physical things.
 
Bobber90 said:
Whatever vision of the universe free will relies upon - dualistic or not - isn’t free will ultimately dependent upon decision-making reasoning, and this upon the physical realm? Indeed, isn’t reasoning effective because it is causally determined instead of being free to take flights of fancy? I do not see how any of this concentration on dualism makes free will free.
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Instincts are causally determined but they often lead us astray. If reasoning were causally determined it would be equally unreliable…
 
Jaaanosik said:
Because I would like to know how you can talk about a relation between free will and determinism if we don’t know what and where is the free will.
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Do you know where your mind is? Or freedom, truth and justice?
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
If they can truly produce actions according to there own “will”, as opposed to producing an action that is sole derived from a chain of causally deterministic mechanisms and processes, then they are not absolutely determined to ends by physical law alone and thus they have freewill. Its meaningless to speak of choice except as either an analogy to freewill, or as referring to freewill itself. Animals act to particular ends out of instinct based upon the teleological information in their brain and genetic make up. Humans also have some instincts and our bound to some degree by law, but they can will them selves to there own ends; this is to say that our actions are not sole derived from a chain of causally deterministic mechanisms and physical processes.

We perceive teleological (goal driven) information in animals and thus it is easy to think that that the information originates in some kind of animal intellect, when in reality that information originates in God. It does not originate in physical things.
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Is it by design that makes animals autonomous with limited intellect based on instincts or you are saying that God sets each goal every time (pulls the strings)?
 
Jaaanosik said:
Is it by design that makes animals autonomous with limited intellect based on instincts or you are saying that God sets each goal every time (pulls the strings)?
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I am saying that at least most animals act on teleological instinct rather than according to preconceived goals that they have freely reasoned to be the best according to a concept of survival or Good. Most if not all animals don’t have an idea of survival; they are simply compelled to act. In any case this is all besides the point.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
I am saying that at least most animals act on teleological instinct rather than according to** preconceived goals that they have freely reasoned** to be the best according to a concept of survival or Good. Most if not all animals don’t have an idea of survival; they are simply compelled to act. In any case this is all besides the point.
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It seems the free will is a capability to preconceive and set a goal via free reasoning.
The goal and your capabilities/skills to achieve it determine your choices and actions.
If you lack the capabilities then you freely reason if it is realistic and you want to work on acquiring skills and capabilities so you can achieve the goal.

There you have it - the relation between free will and determinism.
 
tonyrey said:
Instincts are causally determined but they often lead us astray. If reasoning were causally determined it would be equally unreliable…
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What is the difference between your instincts and your thoughts?
 
Bobber90 said:
Whatever vision of the universe free will relies upon - dualistic or not - isn’t free will ultimately dependent upon decision-making reasoning, and this upon the physical realm? Indeed, isn’t reasoning effective because it is causally determined instead of being free to take flights of fancy? I do not see how any of this concentration on dualism makes free will free.
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I think what you are saying makes sense. I cannot separate out a “free” mind, from the causal world.
Except for the gift of grace from Jesus;).
 
Lisa44 said:
I think what you are saying makes sense. I cannot separate out a “free” mind, from the causal world.
Except for the gift of grace from Jesus;).
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Exactly - as you could tell, I cannot either. I also don’t think there is any comprehensible explanation in saying that it just happens, by the grace of God. Over to those who can explain it!
 
Lisa44 said:
What is the difference between your instincts and your thoughts?
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Instincts would be subjective because they arise from within a person.

Thoughts, since this implies the mind being active, can be both objective and subjective. Objective thinking focuses on the object or truth which exists independaently from us. Subjective thinking searches our memory bank, our experiences, our sensations, and of course our gut instincts.
 
grannymh said:
Instincts would be subjective because they arise from within a person.

Thoughts, since this implies the mind being active, can be both objective and subjective. Objective thinking focuses on the object or truth which exists independaently from us. Subjective thinking searches our memory bank, our experiences, our sensations, and of course our gut instincts.
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Just remember that objective thinking as you defined it here stands on subjective thinking.
You can not bypass subjective thinking. Thinking about objective stuff goes through subjective thinking.
 
Bobber90 said:
Exactly - as you could tell, I cannot either. I also don’t think there is any comprehensible explanation in saying that it just happens, by the grace of God. Over to those who can explain it!
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By “it” do you mean a free will?
No, I do not say we get a “free will” from the grace of God. I say we don’t have a “free will”. (I was simply referring to my salvation as not being from myself and my “free” will but as being a gift (grace) from God.)
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
you didn’t explain yourself very well.

Why can’t you separate out the mind from physical causality
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Because I cannot separate mind and body. I don’t have a sinful nature, and a godly mind.
I am one human sinful creature which means my thoughts and my body are the same. That is why Jesus says if you even look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery.

Why? The person didn’t commit adultery with their body? How can they have committed adultery with the mind?

If the mind was “free”, or the will, from man’s sinful nature then man would not be a sinner because he could have a holy mind.

Is it possible to have a “holy” mind?
 
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