Is friends with benefits the moral alternative?

[SwizzleStick]

…i am NOT saying fornication is ok. it is a mortal sin, yes. im just saying its better than masterbation.

That is absurd reasoning. Both are mortal sin, so one is not “better” than the other.

 

[louisak]

There is another issue here which seems to have gone unnoticed so far. I believe it is commonly accepted that if a person has a genuine addiction or deeply ingrained habit, involving some sinful behavior, that may reduce the person’s culpability although not necessarily eliminate it altogether. So if a person has a long-time habit of committing sin “X”, it would be foolish to try to substitute sin “Y” instead, assuming that both are of grave matter. One would be moving from a situation in which there may not be full culpability, into a situation in which there definitely would be full culpability.

Therefore, it is definitely NOT a good idea to start committing fornication in the hopes of breaking a habit of masturbation. You have no guarantee that it would achieve that result anyway. And besides, you would be bringing in the danger of getting exposed to a venereal disease, not to mention the problem involved in trying to avoid pregnancy.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Can you cite your source?

I’m pretty sure this is true, actually. Aquinas also considered contraception a worse sin than rape.

…Which is irrelevant. Deciding which mortal sin you’re going to commit to avoid another isn’t how life works. Let’s extend this to a greater scale. Is it okay for me to beat my wife repeatedly because the alternative would be beating my children?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

There is another issue here which seems to have gone unnoticed so far. I believe it is commonly accepted that if a person has a genuine addiction or deeply ingrained habit, involving some sinful behavior, that may reduce the person’s culpability although not necessarily eliminate it altogether. So if a person has a long-time habit of committing sin X, it would be foolish to try to substitute sin Y instead, assuming that both are of grave matter. One would be moving from a situation in which there may not be full culpability, into a situation in which there definitely would be full culpability.

Also true.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Or, put another way-“I should fornicate as opposed to masturbate, because then I may only be in the second circle of Hell as opposed to the fifth.”

 

[someperson555]

I smell balogny.

Chastity builds the character necessary for life long marriage. Learning that you can live through long periods of time with out sex, is integral to sexual self conrol. It develops in you the ability to put the welfare of others, your wife/husband and kids, ahead of your own selfish desires.

What you suggest above is just practicing weakness, and sin over & over again. It only makes one more weak. Then if that person finds someone they truely love, and marry them, they are doomed to failure. When they are tempted by someone younger, more beautiful, with money, flashy car…they will cave, their spouse finds out, and boom they end up divorced. They hurt most those they wanted to love and cherish! **Living a lustful life renders people **incapable of true ****love which is exclusive.

My husband & I chose to have a chaste courtship. 27 years later, I still save all of my sexual expression for him. I can’t imagine being intimate with anyone else. He is everything to me.

Hanging on to sin, is like clinging to bobwire that is chained to a monster truck going 60 mph. It will shred you!

this is true, and i wont argue against this. but as others, you missed my point. the road to morality is not always easy.
its like when pope benedict allowed prostitutes to use condoms. he expressed that its at least moving in the right direction.

 

[Burdensome1]

The Church tolerated prostitution then like it tolerates contraception now. Ideological history, you know.

 

[revert_jen]

I’m pretty sure this is true, actually. Aquinas also considered contraception a worse sin than rape.

…Which is irrelevant. Deciding which mortal sin you’re going to commit to avoid another isn’t how life works. Let’s extend this to a greater scale. Is it okay for me to beat my wife repeatedly because the alternative would be beating my children?

Thomas Aquinas was an extremely wise and intelligent man, and a great saint. He was not, however, the Pope speaking ex cathedra. He was capable of error.

The other thing to consider about fornication versus masturbation (which BTW doesn’t have an “e” in it) is that when you fornicate, you are also participating in someone else’s sin. You are lacking in charity because you are being an occasion of sin to another.

In some cases, of course, contraception is worse than rape. That is in the cases of abortifacient contraception, where what is happening is murder. That would not have been the case in Aquinas’ time AFAIK.

–Jen

 

[GEddie]

Stuff on Wikipedia is normally worth the paper it is printed on.

If you could find a better source than that, it would be useful.

Also, from the Church’s perspective, mortal sin is mortal sin. You don’t do one to avoid another. It’s like eating poisoned bread to avoid starvation-- the result is the same.

ICXC NIKA

 

[The_Bucket]

There is another issue here which seems to have gone unnoticed so far. I believe it is commonly accepted that if a person has a genuine addiction or deeply ingrained habit, involving some sinful behavior, that may reduce the person’s culpability although not necessarily eliminate it altogether. So if a person has a long-time habit of committing sin “X”, it would be foolish to try to substitute sin “Y” instead, assuming that both are of grave matter. One would be moving from a situation in which there may not be full culpability, into a situation in which there definitely would be full culpability.

Therefore, it is definitely NOT a good idea to start committing fornication in the hopes of breaking a habit of masturbation. You have no guarantee that it would achieve that result anyway. And besides, you would be bringing in the danger of getting exposed to a venereal disease, not to mention the problem involved in trying to avoid pregnancy.

This. Plus, the idea that sex with another person, including a spouse, will cure an addiction to masturbation or pornography is ludicrous. Of course, many, many people have tried this. I’ve yet to hear from anyone who said it worked.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution#Middle_Ages

“During the Middle Ages, prostitution was commonly found in urban contexts. Although all forms of sexual activity outside of marriage were regarded as sinful by the Roman Catholic Church, prostitution was tolerated because it was held to prevent the greater evils of rape, sodomy, and masturbation (McCall, 1979). Augustine of Hippo held that: “If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts”. The general tolerance of prostitution was for the most part reluctant, and many canonists urged prostitutes to reform.”

Did you really just try to cite wikipedia as a source for an argument?

:whacky: :whacky: :clapping: :clapping: :banghead:

Wow, just wow.

 

[louisak]

I’m pretty sure this is true, actually. Aquinas also considered contraception a worse sin than rape.

In his time, some important aspects of the reproductive process were not understood. They didn’t know that female mammals have eggs; they thought that the sperm was essentially what we would now call a zygote or embryo, containing the full identity of a human individual, and that the female’s body merely provided a place for the fetus to grow. According to that understanding, they judged anything that involved the “spilling of the seed” to be a form of murder.

Of course today we know this is not true, a sperm is not a human person, as it needs to be combined with an egg before a person comes into existence.

 

[LoyalViews]

in the midle ages the catholic church tolerated prostitution because they thought it was a good alternative to stop people from committing greater sins such as masterbation, adultery, and sodomy.

so it is worth considering, would it be the morally responsible thing to do to have a certain someone you could have sex with until marriage? just to keep from committing more grevious sins?
p.s. i realise the real morally responsible thing to do would be to not have sex at al untill marriage, but many of us find this very difficult to do. so basically wouldnt it be better to have sex with a person (using NFP ofcourse), to stave off masterbation and pornography?

No, do not replace sin with sin. “Many of us find it difficult to do”. That’s simply untrue. Unless someone has an addiction, or for some FAR, FAR, FAR OUT reason (which I couldn’t see being an excuse even) it is not difficult to do. Fornication is fornication, it is a form of adultery and is a grave, grave sin. Do you love sex more than the God who created you, who was crucified for you? We all struggle with sin, some more than others. But there is no, absolutely no reason to have “special someone” to have sex with outside of marriage, even if there is a possibility of marrying said person. My friend, as Catholic who are unmarried, we are to be chaste and to focus on Heaven rather than using “excuse sins” in order to not commit another sin, because you’d still be sinning.

and as i said i AGREE with you. im just making theological conversation lol.
for example, a person who is having sexual relations with his girlfriend finds out that he is in mortal sin. he should try to stop, but all im saying is that maybe he shouldnt cut off contact with his girlfriend lest he fall into the sins of masterbation and pornography. at least with his girlfriend theres a chance that they will get married and then they will not be committing fornication anymore.

i am NOT saying fornication is ok. it is a mortal sin, yes. im just saying its better than masterbation.

If he is fornicating, yes he should stop. No, not cut off contact with his girlfriend. You can have a relationship and be chaste. If he is so worried he’d fall into the sin of masturbation and pornography, I think I’d take him to a priest and upon the priest’s advice, to a therapist.

Like I said, there IS the chance he’d be married to her one day, and that’s great, but that is why the term “marital relations” exists. Those acts belong nowhere outside the bonds of Marriage which is a living sacrament.

Stuff on Wikipedia is normally worth the paper it is printed on.

If you could find a better source than that, it would be useful.

Also, from the Church’s perspective, mortal sin is mortal sin. You don’t do one to avoid another. It’s like eating poisoned bread to avoid starvation-- the result is the same.

ICXC NIKA

This. Spot on. Exactly. Wikipedia is a public, free-for-all encyclopedia with lots of useful information, but more times than not, they are wrong. It is possible that at one time, the authorities of a certain Catholic country tolerated prostitution, but the country is run by men whereas the CHURCH would never condone or tolerate sin.

Excellent comparison. Replacing sin with another sin is just the same as eating poisoned bread to avoid starvation. Same result.

God Bless :byzsoc:

 

[waanju]

fornication is less sinful than masterbation. thats not me saying that. i got it from thomas aquinas , and i believe those views of his are still valid. and after all, if you study it in greater depth youll find that he wa sright. fornication is more close to the order that God originally intended, whereas masterbation is farther away from the natural sex act. theerfore i think if you were to put the sins of lust in a heirarchy, it would go something like this (from least sinful to most sinful)
fornication (using NFP)
contraception
masterbation
rape
adultery
sodomy

im not sure if everyone of those vices are in their correct category, but i think that thomas aquinas held masterbation to be more sinful. he called it a “special vice”

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that fornication basically IS adultery, because you’re cheating on your future spouse. SO how come they’re so far apart in this heirarchy?
Regardless, one CANNOT commit a mortal sin in order to avoid committing another mortal sin. The end does not justify the means. Period. Having a “friend with benefits”, even if it’s because you think it’s the only way to avoid masturbation, is WRONG. End of story.
As for the supposition that this is based on (fornication will put an end to masturbation) that is ill-advised in the first place. One cannot hope to resist the temptation of lust by giving in to lust. That’s ridiculous and will only cause lust to grow stronger. The only way to strengthen defenses against lust is to cultivate it’s opposite virtue, chastity. I’m not saying this is easy. I’m not saying that you won’t mess up and commit some mortal sins along the way. Cultivating chastity can be hard, but in the end, it is the ONLY way to stop commiting sins of lust. Anything else is giving advil without addressing the source of the pain.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Thomas Aquinas was an extremely wise and intelligent man, and a great saint. He was not, however, the Pope speaking ex cathedra. He was capable of error.

Of course. Nothing he said was actually against Church teaching though, so I’m inclined to agree with you. Still, if he really is such a wise man we should try and take what he says seriously at least.

The other thing to consider about fornication versus masturbation (which BTW doesn’t have an “e” in it)…

Typo

… is that when you fornicate, you are also participating in someone else’s sin. You are lacking in charity because you are being an occasion of sin to another.

Very true.

In some cases, of course, contraception is worse than rape. That is in the cases of abortifacient contraception, where what is happening is murder. That would not have been the case in Aquinas’ time AFAIK.

–Jen

In practical terms, it’s not really too big of a deal, actually-both are mortal sins. Which sin is “more mortal” shouldn’t make a difference when committing the sin-although I agree with you that for various reasons rape is the far worse sin, mostly because of the evil that you’re inflicting on somebody else.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

The Church tolerated prostitution then like it tolerates contraception now. Ideological history, you know.

 

[AdamP88]

in the midle ages the catholic church tolerated prostitution because they thought it was a good alternative to stop people from committing greater sins such as masterbation, adultery, and sodomy.

so it is worth considering, would it be the morally responsible thing to do to have a certain someone you could have sex with until marriage? just to keep from committing more grevious sins?
p.s. i realise the real morally responsible thing to do would be to not have sex at al untill marriage, but many of us find this very difficult to do. so basically wouldnt it be better to have sex with a person (using NFP ofcourse), to stave off masterbation and pornography?

Sorry I’m late for the party but this is a ridiculous suggestion. The church never advocated replacing grievous sins with even more grievous sins!

What you’re suggesting is basically a moral free-for-all because “some people find it too hard to be chaste.”

Guess what…it IS hard. Anyone who follows Christ has a hard slog ahead and there are no short-cuts…

 

[Timothy_Garber]

this is true, and i wont argue against this. but as others, you missed my point. the road to morality is not always easy.
its like when pope benedict allowed prostitutes to use condoms. he expressed that its at least moving in the right direction.

Where are you getting all this information?!

How the heck is using contraception “moving in the right direction”?

 

[KostyaJMJ]

gladly,

“With regard to the other species of lust they imply a transgression merely of that which is determined by right reason, on the presupposition, however, of natural principles. Now it is more against reason to make use of the venereal act not only with prejudice to the future offspring, but also so as to injure another person besides. Wherefore simple fornication, which is committed without injustice to another person, is the least grave among the species of lust.”

newadvent.org/summa/3154.htm#article12

I think you are misreading this. Fornication is a the least grave among the species of lust isolated from other aspects of human action. This doesn’t mean that it is a less serious sin. In addition to lust there are also different species of sin. Masturbation is a more serious transgression against chastity than fornication. However, fornication is a much bigger offense against justice than masturbation as you might be depriving any potential children of a stable home.

pathsoflove.com/blog/2009/06/aquinas-on-sexual-sins-dangers-of-speaking-formally/

 

[GEddie]

Where are you getting all this information?!

How the heck is using contraception “moving in the right direction”?

IIRC, it was said that if prostitutes having VD used condoms to keep clients from becoming infected, that was an act of concern for others that could be a step toward repentance.

ICXC NIKA