Is Gay Pride compatible with Catholicism?

[Exalt]

The “gay” community is an extremely messed up place.

I would say that the *community *is a messed up place. Our *nation *is a messed up place. And the *world *is a messed up place.

Good people are good people regardless of their sexual orientation, and bad people are bad people regardless of their sexual orientation.

I’ve met loving, understanding, compassionate gay people, and I’ve met bitter, careless, and hateful gay people - both for those who are “out and proud” and those who are chaste - the same goes for straight people.

 

[Exalt]

Dear Exalt, / May God be with you. /
“Gay Pride” according to webster’s definition would be akin to a rapist coming out and saying they were proud to be a rapist or a pedophile saying they were proud they liked to “do it” with children. / Gay Pride is incompatible with Catholicism because it is taking pride in a sinful lifestyle. / God bless you.

First, thank you for your response.

Second, I feel obligated to point out that there is more to being gay than just wanting to have sex. Certianly, that is a *part *of what it means to be gay for many gay people, but it is not the whole story. It seems to me like you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. Indeed, the Church condemns merely homosexual *sexual *behavior and is silent on all other expressions.

Third, I also feel obligated to point out that your analogy is extremely flawed. Rape and pedophilia include a lack of regard for the consent of the other party. It is the exploitation of another human being, usually causing horrible damage, both psychological and physical. Sexual expression between two men, two women, or a man and a woman, when consensual, is very different indeed.

 

[Exalt]

What’s to be proud about that? Things that are none of any body else’s business are cute when it’s a little kid losing a tooth or something, but once a person becomes an adult…not so much. / Although homosexuality isn’t a sin in itself, it is still gravely disordered and it should not be glorified.

If I could demonstrate that public admission of one’s sexual orientation leads to greater self-worth, self-understanding, and a decrease in self-hatred, would that be sufficient reason to come out? (Even if you’re chaste?)

There are many other sins besides the sexual sins that the gay community glorifies. The gay community encourages selfishness, vanity, narcissism, and revenge. These are as big of problems as any in society today.

First of all, this “gay community” you speak of, can you point it out for me? I’m having trouble finding it and verifying your claim that they encourage those terrible things.

Second of all: I would say that the *world *has a problem with all those things, and it probably doesn’t matter if you’re gay or not.

 

[Exalt]

Gay people can get married to a member of the opposite sex and have kids just like anyone else.

As others have pointed out, a homosexual person getting married to a member of the opposite sex would wreck havoc on the family (including the gay person himself/herself).

It is a terrible idea.

 

[BlaineTog]

Indeed, the Church condemns merely homosexual *sexual *behavior and is silent on all other expressions.

AFAIK, that’s because those other expressions aren’t intrinsically sinful.

Third, I also feel obligated to point out that your analogy is extremely flawed. Rape and pedophilia include a lack of regard for the consent of the other party. It is the exploitation of another human being, usually causing horrible damage, both psychological and physical. Sexual expression between two men, two women, or a man and a woman, when consensual, is very different indeed.

Begging the question. This is the very matter at hand. While consensual homosexual sex is obviously different from rape, the Catholic Church maintains that it is still harmful to the individuals. Sin can be against a community or against other individuals, but it can also be against yourself (and it is always against God).

I would say that the *community *is a messed up place. Our *nation *is a messed up place. And the *world *is a messed up place.

Obviously true. East and West must therefore mean that the gay community is especially messed up, or differently messed up.

 

[manualman]

First, thank you for your response.

Second, I feel obligated to point out that there is more to being gay than just wanting to have sex. Certianly, that is a *part *of what it means to be gay for many gay people, but it is not the whole story. It seems to me like you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. Indeed, the Church condemns merely homosexual *sexual *behavior and is silent on all other expressions.

I don’t know how to say this without sounding sarcastic, but what ARE these other characteristics of being ‘gay?’ Honest question.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I know exactly how you feel. I am in my twenties and I am watching all of my friends marry and begin families. Becuase of their family situations, they tend to hang out with other married couples more and don’t have time like they used to. Since I struggle with SSA, I will never quite fit into their world.

Many of us are single, both gay and straight, and this does seem to be a world built for couples and families. Most of the parish activities are family oriented too. I’m straight but have gay friends and those who are living the lifestyle are no happier than those who aren’t (just temporarily less lonely). Pray for good friends who accept you for who you are. Life is still good.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

You just do not understand friend. I have never felt more emotionally secure, mentally stable, and most importantly spiritually intune with God until I learned to give into the fact that I was homosexual. My relationship with God, myself, and my friends for once is something that feels real and true. Booze does not give an alcoholic that. And if you are going to compare the two think about this, what is the first thing that an alcoholic is suppose to do? Admit to being an alcoholic, then and only then can they start to reconcil there relationships with friends, family, and God.

There are any number of folks on this forum who are quick to state that they hate the act but love the person. They then proceed to call their very being disordered and insist that their lives are ones of misery. I’ve seen people here say that homosexuals are incapable of love, but real love cannot exist except in a heterosexual manner. They are simply masking their true bigotry because the Church insists they do, and God forbid, they want to be seen as “real” Catholics.

Thanks for sharing your story. Most Catholics support you and realize that gay people are people like all others, good bad and indifferent. This sly form of bigotry is similar to that used against blacks and women and is now being used against “illegals” and Arabs. There seems to be an overriding need on the part of humans to downgrade others to feel good themselves. It is sad and regrettable.

 

[manualman]

There seems to be an overriding need on the part of humans to downgrade others to feel good themselves. It is sad and regrettable.

Hehehe. You don’t even see the irony, do you?

Feels good to call us bigots, doesn’t it?
Why not just discuss the issues?

 

[m134e5]

If I could demonstrate that public admission of one’s sexual orientation leads to greater self-worth, self-understanding, and a decrease in self-hatred, would that be sufficient reason to come out? (Even if you’re chaste?)

Some things, while being open about them may be therapeutic for the person dealing with them, are still private matters. They should be kept private, because their throwing it in the faces of those around them probably isn’t therapeutic for others. I’m not saying that people shouldn’t recognize their self-worth, or that they should lock everything inside themselves even if they can’t handle it alone. If someone needs to talk about it to someone, that’s what confession is for. If confession isn’t enough, they can go to a counselor (a Christian one who won’t encourage them to live the lifestyle). Depending on the individual situation, it may also be appropriate to discuss the matter with close friends (but such friends need to be spiritually and emotionally mature enough to handle it).

First of all, this “gay community” you speak of, can you point it out for me? I’m having trouble finding it and verifying your claim that they encourage those terrible things.

I can’t point it out. It’s something you either see or you don’t. I’ve watched married men leave their wives because counselors and openly/actively gay people tell them they should- that their own happiness is more important than their vow to God and to their spouse. I have seen once-good friendships destroyed over the smallest things because the culture the gay person gets wrapped up in has no concept of forgiveness. (Even some of the most gay-tolerant people I know have said ‘nobody can get revenge like gay guys can’). Why the bitterness? Don’t tell me it’s because of injustice- lots of groups have suffered injustice. Why the unwillingness to forgive? (That’s another characteristic I’ve seen- and it’s not a local phenomenon either- I’ve talked to *many *people and the ones who have no concept of forgiveness nearly always have had something to hide- or not hide, whatever the case may be). The gay culture considers the seven deadly sins to be virtues. (this post would be *way *too long if I went into this in more detail).

Second of all: I would say that the *world *has a problem with all those things, and it probably doesn’t matter if you’re gay or not./quote]

The world seems to glorify what the gay community glorifies. For some reason, it seems more pronounced in the Gay community. Perhaps this is because the gay community has a way with being particularly dramatic (either that, or you get the circles that are so obcessed with their [false] perception of true masculinity that they’re just plain mean- whatever direction they go, the gay community seem to take it to the extreme).

 

[Exalt]

There are any number of folks on this forum who are quick to state that they hate the act but love the person. They then proceed to call their very being disordered and insist that their lives are ones of misery.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement.

 

[m134e5]

There are any number of folks on this forum who are quick to state that they hate the act but love the person. They then proceed to call their very being disordered and insist that their lives are ones of misery. I’ve seen people here say that homosexuals are incapable of love, but real love cannot exist except in a heterosexual manner. They are simply masking their true bigotry because the Church insists they do, and God forbid, they want to be seen as “real” Catholics.

Thanks for sharing your story. Most Catholics support you and realize that gay people are people like all others, good bad and indifferent. This sly form of bigotry is similar to that used against blacks and women and is now being used against “illegals” and Arabs. There seems to be an overriding need on the part of humans to downgrade others to feel good themselves. It is sad and regrettable.

Homosexual acts are mortal sins. It’s not our place to change that. The moral implications aside, it simply is not natural for men to have sex with men or women to have sex with women. I’m not comfortable going into the physiological consequences on a forum of this nature, but we have to face facts- guys aren’t designed to have sex with guys (or girls with girls). I am tolerant of gay people. Most people who know me know my feelings on this issue, because they know I take my faith seriously- exactly as it is given to me by the Magisterium.

I’m sure there are people on this forum who are as you describe. That is a shame, but bigotry is everywhere.

I am tolerant of homosexuals whether they be active or not- as long as they don’t expect me to endorse their lifestyle, and as long as they don’t act in ways that constantly remind me of their sexual orientation. I am encouraging and will do all I can to help people struggling with this temptation live chaste lives. I try always to affirm the dignity that is in every human person, while at the same time, helping them understand that each one of us is broken and is in need of God’s mercy and grace through the sacraments, prayer, and spiritual direction. I will not condone sin- it does no favor for anyone to tell someone that something is “ok” or “good” when it is a sin. Of course, it’s even worse to try and intimidate people into repenting (it probably would be insincere, if one happened as a result of that anyway).

 

[Exalt]

(One’s homosexuality) should be kept private, because their throwing it in the faces of those around them probably isn’t therapeutic for others.

What exactly would “throwing it in the faces of those around them” mean in this context?

I can’t point it out. It’s something you either see or you don’t. I’ve watched married men leave their wives because counselors and openly/actively gay people tell them they should- that their own happiness is more important than their vow to God and to their spouse. I have seen once-good friendships destroyed over the smallest things because the culture the gay person gets wrapped up in has no concept of forgiveness. (Even some of the most gay-tolerant people I know have said ‘nobody can get revenge like gay guys can’). Why the bitterness? Don’t tell me it’s because of injustice- lots of groups have suffered injustice. Why the unwillingness to forgive? (That’s another characteristic I’ve seen- and it’s not a local phenomenon either- I’ve talked to *many *people and the ones who have no concept of forgiveness nearly always have had something to hide- or not hide, whatever the case may be). The gay culture considers the seven deadly sins to be virtues. (this post would be *way *too long if I went into this in more detail).

I’ve seen my conservative Catholic friends and family do and say nearly the exact same things, and yet I don’t condemn them or pretend like the whole Catholic community (and that’s a *real *community, unlike this conjured “gay community” people believe in) is represented by this small group of people.

Good people will be good people and bad people will be bad people. Small sample sizes may fuel prejudice, but it doesn’t mean it’s representative of the whole.

The world seems to glorify what the gay community glorifies. For some reason, it seems more pronounced in the Gay community.

Have you ever considered that it might be from a prejudiced point of view that you believe what you believe? That it might come from the same sort of thing that allowed people to justify negative opinions towards black people or Jews or Muslims or any other marginalized minority?

If not, I invite you to consider it seriously.

 

[Exalt]

Homosexual acts are mortal sins. It’s not our place to change that.

Just because you believed the square to be a circle and rectified your beliefs doesn’t mean the circle was *transformed *into a square.

The moral implications aside, it simply is not natural for men to have sex with men or women to have sex with women.

Ah, the “natural” issue. I knew it would pop up sometime. Here is my big point to make about this:

“Natural” is a word that means many different things to many different people. I will address three ways of thinking about this issue:

Definition #1: “Arising easily or spontaneously.” For many gay people, homosexual feelings do indeed come naturally to them, as natural as heterosexual feelings come for heterosexuals. This is a poor judge of the morality of a thing.

Definition #2: “Biologically natural or appropriate.” Homosexuality has a very positive function in many animal societies that can be demonstrated rather easily. Dolphins come to mind. It’s quite possible that homosexuality among human beings has a similiar biological “purpose”. Furthermore, I agree that certain sexual acts are not directly for the purpose of bearing children, and in many ways that could be considered not serving the basic drive of our genes to replicate themselves. However, that is no measure for the morality of a thing. Indeed, as conscious, intelligent animals we understand that there are many aspects of our biological nature that must be curbed, channeled elsewhere, or repressed, lest that very nature destroy us. The tendency of human beings to desire more and more “things” comes to mind here.

Definition #3: “According to God’s plan.” I can’t speak to that issue. I merely offer the following questions: How certian are you that you are privvy to the knowledge of God’s plan? Is it possible that you is wrong on that issue? If your mind (in accordance with your conscience) came to the conclusion that your opinion about God’s plan was wrong, would you change your opinions? Beyond that, I can speak no more.

 

[jean8]

“Gay Pride”, according to the Webster’s New Millennium™ Dictionary of English, is “a sense of dignity and satisfaction involved in the public admission of one’s homosexuality.”

The Catholic church merely condemns homosexual activity (and, also, any sexual activity outside the context of marriage), and says, to my knowledge, nothing of the morality of either “coming out” or having pride in one’s sexual orientation.

Therefore, I wonder about the position of people on this board on the subject of “gay pride”, as the Webster’s Dictionary defines it. Any thoughts?

exalt,
I would imagine this sin is up for discussion because of it’s radical views.
The Bible tells us homosexuality is an abomination to the Lord.
Rom.1:18-32 covers God’s wrath against mankind.
It is called perversion, depravity and so on. I invite all to read what the Lord teaches about the sin of homosexuality.
The Lord destroyed Sodom for this sin. O.T.

God bless,
jean8

 

[jean8]

I don’t know how to say this without sounding sarcastic, but what ARE these other characteristics of being ‘gay?’ Honest question.

Is Gay pride compatible with God? No, God calls this lifestyle sinful.
The Catholic church teaches, we all must repent of all sins, including gay lifestyle.!
God is no respecter of persons.

jean8

 

[drafdog]

Sexual orientation is not significantly different from any other genetic variation. Acknowledgment and acceptance (pride) of left-handedness, blindness, blue-eyedness, artistic talent, homosexuality, etc is the beginning of turning your particular difference from others into a person strength. “Gay pride” is not in any way different from being proud that you have red hair.

Matthew

 

[Exalt]

Sexual orientation is not significantly different from any other genetic variation. Acknowledgment and acceptance (pride) of left-handedness, blindness, blue-eyedness, artistic talent, homosexuality, etc is the beginning of turning your particular difference from others into a person strength. “Gay pride” is not in any way different from being proud that you have red hair.

Matthew

<3

 

[Fitswimmer]

Homosexual acts are mortal sins. It’s not our place to change that. The moral implications aside, it simply is not natural for men to have sex with men or women to have sex with women. I’m not comfortable going into the physiological consequences on a forum of this nature, but we have to face facts- guys aren’t designed to have sex with guys (or girls with girls). I am tolerant of gay people. Most people who know me know my feelings on this issue, because they know I take my faith seriously- exactly as it is given to me by the Magisterium.

I’m sure there are people on this forum who are as you describe. That is a shame, but bigotry is everywhere.

**I am tolerant of homosexuals whether they be active or not- as long as they don’t expect me to endorse their lifestyle, and as long as they don’t act in ways that constantly remind me of their sexual orientation. ** I am encouraging and will do all I can to help people struggling with this temptation live chaste lives. I try always to affirm the dignity that is in every human person, while at the same time, helping them understand that each one of us is broken and is in need of God’s mercy and grace through the sacraments, prayer, and spiritual direction. I will not condone sin- it does no favor for anyone to tell someone that something is “ok” or “good” when it is a sin. Of course, it’s even worse to try and intimidate people into repenting (it probably would be insincere, if one happened as a result of that anyway).

What does that mean? Does the fact that I have no husband and no children at my advanced age (40+) remind you of my orientation? Does the fact that I do not “dress like a girl” remind you of my orientation? How about the fact that I like a hockey game more than “Dancing with the Stars”?

Part of my orientation includes likes and dislikes that don’t exactly mirror those of others of my sex. Some of those likes and dislikes are obvious to others-more so than whether or not I am sexually active with members of my own gender. Believe me, I’ve tried to “act like a girl” all my life, and it only succeeded in making me depressed nearly to the point of suicide. I’d rather not commit that sin and run the risk of “reminding” someone that I’m gay.

 

[manualman]

What does that mean? Does the fact that I have no husband and no children at my advanced age (40+) remind you of my orientation? Does the fact that I do not “dress like a girl” remind you of my orientation? How about the fact that I like a hockey game more than “Dancing with the Stars”?

Thanks. That answers the question I posed to Exalt that he didn’t answer. I was hesitant to make assumptions because any ‘characteristics’ of gays I could think of not related to sex all felt like stereotypes.

But I did want to follow up on the thought. I think it is dramatically unhelpful for people to associate women who don’t get into makeup or like hockey instead of the Tango automatically with lesbian sex.

I speak from no small experience because in high school I very much enjoyed being in a showchoir (sing AND dance) and theater in spite of having no gay inclination at all ( ). Never mind the facts, labeling starts to occur anyways. I think it is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to associate certain interests, talents and abilities with homosexuality and it is a problem that is going to get worse as people try to take the word ‘gay’ and expand its definition beyond sexual behavior and inclination.

IMO, you’d do better to FIGHT stereotypes that divide people into cliques and lead to gossip and speculation rather than reinforce them.

Personally, I think a woman who shuns makeup and prefers hockey to figure skating rocks. Keep the faith!