Is God a kind, loving God or a mean, vengeful God?

[truetofaith]

I know… but if the entire basis of our faith is Jesus died on the cross as salvation for our sins, it seems to me that it’s pretty important as to what kind of Father would demand that of his Son.

My Catholic education taught me that God was a just and loving God. That being the case why would Jesus have to die on the Cross. That’s contradictory…and at the very heart of our Faith.

What part don’t you understand? That’s the ultimate act of love. Jesus gave His life for the remittance of mankind’s sin. God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son but stopped him. That was to show the sacrifice that would not be stopped with Jesus.

By the way God didn’t create us flawed…we were given free will…we choose to know, love & serve God! Also, God is not vengeful …He is perfectly Just. therefore punishment for sin.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I know… but if the entire basis of our faith is Jesus died on the cross as salvation for our sins, it seems to me that it’s pretty important as to what kind of Father would demand that of his Son.

My Catholic education taught me that God was a just and loving God. That being the case why would Jesus have to die on the Cross. That’s contradictory…and at the very heart of our Faith.

Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.”

Jesus came into the world for a specific purpose. He executed the plan that had been set in motion long before (probably before the creation of the world).

Jesus died willingly BECAUSE of God’s love and justice. It is at the Cross that His love and justice are both displayed.

 

[OneSheep]

I know… but if the entire basis of our faith is Jesus died on the cross as salvation for our sins, it seems to me that it’s pretty important as to what kind of Father would demand that of his Son.

But that’s just it, Floyd. What the Cardinal was essentially saying is the cross is not us paying God, it is God paying us. It’s the “twist” in the article I cited, and the Cardinal’s book. Salvation comes from following Christ, from being in communion, from loving and forgiving others, not from some paid debt.

My view: There is no debt. If we see that there is a debt, that is our God-given conscience speaking. God-beneath-the-conscience says something different.

The cross, according to the cardinal, is “expression of that foolish love of God’s which gives itself away to the point of humiliation”

My Catholic education taught me that God was a just and loving God. That being the case why would Jesus have to die on the Cross. That’s contradictory…and at the very heart of our Faith.

There is room in the Church for differences of opinion as to whether Jesus had to die on the cross. To me, the crucifixion was understandable, but not necessary. Jesus’ life on Earth, His ministry, His example: very necessary. God knew we would kill Him, that was certainly all known ahead of time.

Go with your gut on this, Floyd.

 

[NoMondays]

I believe God is infinite mercy and infinite forgiveness and love. So there is no way he could ever be mean or vengeful. Just my 2 cents.

 

[OneSheep]

In post #49, I gave you the links to Craig’s blogs which you requested. You’re welcome.

I also pointed out that Craig is simply saying the same thing that Golda Meir said many years ago - reposted here:

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children." – Golda Meir

Looks like William Lane Craig is not the only one who gets it.

Hi Randy,

I sure hope that Craig’s comments are not the same as Golda Meir. Meir’s comments are not unlike what street gangs say every day: “He made me kill him because he dissed me.”

No one forced Israelis to kill Arab children, Randy. It was the Israeli decision, their choice. No one forces anyone to do anything! Yes, the “Arabs” need to painfully accept some responsibility for triggering angry responses from Israel, murderous responses to murder can be expected. However, as difficult as it is, we are called to forgive, to turn the cheek. This was not in the mind of the Israelis who took vengeance. Golda said “we can forgive”, but forgive they did not.

Can you see what the Kingdom is about? It is about Arabs forgiving Israelis, and Israelis forgiving Arabs, not enslavement to anger, hatred, and resentment. It is about breaking the cycle, about seeing that we are not forced to respond to violence and hate with the same, like so many robots. It is about freeing ourselves from these trappings.

God bless.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy,

I sure hope that Craig’s comments are not the same as Golda Meir. Meir’s comments are not unlike what street gangs say every day: “He made me kill him because he dissed me.”

No one forced Israelis to kill Arab children, Randy. It was the Israeli decision, their choice. No one forces anyone to do anything! Yes, the “Arabs” need to painfully accept some responsibility for triggering angry responses from Israel, murderous responses to murder can be expected. However, as difficult as it is, we are called to forgive, to turn the cheek. This was not in the mind of the Israelis who took vengeance. Golda said “we can forgive”, but forgive they did not.

Can you see what the Kingdom is about? It is about Arabs forgiving Israelis, and Israelis forgiving Arabs, not enslavement to anger, hatred, and resentment. It is about breaking the cycle, about seeing that we are not forced to respond to violence and hate with the same, like so many robots. It is about freeing ourselves from these trappings.

God bless.

When the Palestinians send their sons (and they don’t have to be young) to kill Israel’s sons (who may also be grown men), Israel must kill those sons of Palestine in self defense.

Meir regretted that Israel is forced to do this.

The Church allows that sometimes we must take a life in defense of our own or of those we love.

 

[Floyd_Lawson]

Because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay.

But a kind, loving God and Father wouldn’t demand that price…not the God that I grew up believing in.

That makes no sense. We can’t have it both ways.

 

[PRmerger]

But a kind, loving God and Father wouldn’t demand that price…not the God that I grew up believing in.

That makes no sense. We can’t have it both ways.

Debts must be paid, Floyd.

Else this is no justice.

Think about sin and how offensive it is. One cannot simply wipe it away, when it is done in offense of the Numinous.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

But a kind, loving God and Father wouldn’t demand that price…not the God that I grew up believing in.

That makes no sense. We can’t have it both ways.

Are you saying you can’t believe your Catholic faith is truthful?

Why are you a Catholic?

 

[truetofaith]

I don’t think it’s a matter of opinion…I never heard Catholic or Protestant teachers ever say The crucifixion of Jesus was unnecessary! :bigyikes:

 

[OneSheep]

When the Palestinians send their sons (and they don’t have to be young) to kill Israel’s sons (who may also be grown men), Israel must kill those sons of Palestine in self defense.

Meir regretted that Israel is forced to do this.

The Church allows that sometimes we must take a life in defense of our own or of those we love.

Hi Randy,

Yes, self-defense is necessary and called for. Retribution, however, is not called for, and that is most of the killing that Israel did. Forgiveness is called for.

Israel is not forced to bomb Gaza, nor is it forced to blockade the people, or confiscate land or destroy homes. Palestinians are not forced to respond to Israel violently when Israel does these things. It is our nature that drives these matters.

Jesus calls us to be free from our nature. Even self-defense is not forced, Randy, it is a choice, and we can also make choices that lead to peace and reconciliation rather than animosity. Israel does not make those choices, and neither does Palestine, when the parties choose not to forgive and work out their differences.

Yes, Golda Meir can forgive the Arabs for what they had done, including “forcing” Israel to kill their children, as illogical as that “forcing” is. The Palestinians lashed out in anger, which is exactly what Israel did. When Israel responds with anger and retribution ('self defense"), the Palestinians kill some Israelis in self-defense. In these cases, can Golda forgive the Israelis for “forcing” Palestinians to kill Israeli children? Do you see the ridiculousness of it all?

The Kingdom is different than this, do you see?

Peace

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t think it’s a matter of opinion…I never heard Catholic or Protestant teachers ever say The crucifixion of Jesus was unnecessary! :bigyikes:

Well, check it out:

catholica.com.au/ianstake/016_it_print.php

Enjoy!

 

[truetofaith]

Well, check it out:

catholica.com.au/ianstake/016_it_print.php

Enjoy!

I don’t have time to read that whole article…for now, all I can say is…

Matt. 26 : 39 My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. yet not as I will, but as You will!

To me, that ends the discussion!

 

[Floyd_Lawson]

Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.”

Jesus came into the world for a specific purpose. He executed the plan that had been set in motion long before (probably before the creation of the world).

Jesus died willingly BECAUSE of God’s love and justice. It is at the Cross that His love and justice are both displayed.

If God is a God of love and justice then how can he demand that his Son be killed for our sins? If God is all-powerful, just forgive us. How can a loving God demand that price?

If I created a situation that I wasn’t happy with, the last thing I would do is ask one of my children to be put to death to fix it. That doesn’t sound much like the plan of a kind God.

If He created us, and we are flawed, why make Jesus die for our sins?

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t have time to read that whole article…for now, all I can say is…

Matt. 26 : 39 My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. yet not as I will, but as You will!

To me, that ends the discussion!

Yes, it was God’s (Jesus’) will that He not use his powers to stop what the Romans and Jewish authorities planned to do.

In addition, IMO it was God’s (Jesus’) will to die unpopular, that he die “poor” in status, which before He had been previously “rich”. Jesus did so much to set the example of being free from human compulsions. He chose poverty, chastity, etc., which was evident in His life. However, it could have been construed to followers that Jesus was a slave to desire for status. His refusal to defend himself at trial, His allowing of people to hate and accuse Him without any response on His part, was a quick trip to loss of status. He was an example to the end.

Please, take the time to read the article. If you like, let me know what you think of it!

God Bless

P.S. Am I a slave to getting-in-the-last-word? I hope not…

 

[truetofaith]

If God is a God of love and justice then how can he demand that his Son be killed for our sins? If God is all-powerful, just forgive us. How can a loving God demand that price?

If I created a situation that I wasn’t happy with, the last thing I would do is ask one of my children to be put to death to fix it. That doesn’t sound much like the plan of a kind God.

If He created us, and we are flawed, why make Jesus die for our sins?

Floyd …you’re forgetting that Father, Son & Holy Spirit are all ONE ! God in 3 Persons. You are putting human thoughts into this

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy,

Yes, self-defense is necessary and called for. Retribution, however, is not called for, and that is most of the killing that Israel did. Forgiveness is called for.

Israel is not forced to bomb Gaza, nor is it forced to blockade the people, or confiscate land or destroy homes. Palestinians are not forced to respond to Israel violently when Israel does these things. It is our nature that drives these matters.

Jesus calls us to be free from our nature. Even self-defense is not forced, Randy, it is a choice, and we can also make choices that lead to peace and reconciliation rather than animosity. Israel does not make those choices, and neither does Palestine, when the parties choose not to forgive and work out their differences.

Yes, Golda Meir can forgive the Arabs for what they had done, including “forcing” Israel to kill their children, as illogical as that “forcing” is. The Palestinians lashed out in anger, which is exactly what Israel did. When Israel responds with anger and retribution ('self defense"), the Palestinians kill some Israelis in self-defense. In these cases, can Golda forgive the Israelis for “forcing” Palestinians to kill Israeli children? Do you see the ridiculousness of it all?

The Kingdom is different than this, do you see?

Peace

If Israel laid down all of its weapons and announced that it would no longer defend itself under any circumstances, what do you think would happen the next day?



If all of the Arabs and Palestinians made that announcement instead, what do you think would happen the next day?

:hug3:

The Middle East conflict exists for one reason and one reason only: Satan hates God’s chosen People and uses the Muslims to kill them.

 

[tonyrey]

I know… but if the entire basis of our faith is Jesus died on the cross as salvation for our sins, it seems to me that it’s pretty important as to what kind of Father would demand that of his Son.

My Catholic education taught me that God was a just and loving God. That being the case why would Jesus have to die on the Cross. That’s contradictory…and at the very heart of our Faith.

Jesus made it abundantly clear to the Pharisees that He chose to die ** of His own free will**:

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- just as the Father knows me and I know the Father–and I lay down my life for the sheep. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.

John 10:14-16

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are united by love in all Their activity whether it is in heaven or on earth:

"I and the Father are one…

John 10:30

Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that** the Father is in me, and I in the Father.**”

John 14:11

267 Inseparable in what they are, the divine persons are also inseparable in what they do. But within the single divine operation each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, especially in the divine missions of the Son’s Incarnation and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[tonyrey]

Floyd …you’re forgetting that Father, Son & Holy Spirit are all ONE ! God in 3 Persons. You are putting human thoughts into this

Precisely!

 

[tonyrey]

How can choosing to suffer and die for us possibly be mean and vengeful?