Is God responsible for evil for not offering Beatific Vision as a gift?

[Lea101]

This seems like a very flawed analogy.

What in God’s house is of any threat to us?

It also seems to imply that those not in heaven have been kicked out, as opposed to having refused the invitation to enter in.

God’s house isn’t a threat, it’s more of the fact that maybe God isn’t as loving as we say he is= a cold or distant God/a God that likes some more than others/insert whatever perception one has.

Being on his side is still better than the alternative (being damned)

I don’t think being damned is as simple as refusing it. We refuse it through our actions, sure, but it’s not like every soul in hell made the conscious decision of going to hell.

So if we want to compare with a real father, I guess it would kind of be like you don’t like his rules and you don’t find him to be reasonable, and because of that, he kicks you out. So while you made the decision of not obeying him, it’s not like you want to be homeless.

Although for me personally, I don’t really see it like that (just repeating the sentiment they seem to have) I see it as God threw a really heavy cross on us and if we are unable to carry it, we go to hell.

 

[pianistclare]

God’s house isn’t a threat, it’s more of the fact that maybe God isn’t as loving as we say he is= a cold or distant God/a God that likes some more than others/insert whatever perception one has.

Being on his side is still better than the alternative (being damned)

I don’t think being damned is as simple as refusing it. We refuse it through our actions, sure, but it’s not like every soul in hell made the conscious decision of going to hell.

So if we want to compare with a real father, I guess it would kind of be like you don’t like his rules and you don’t find him to be reasonable, and because of that, he kicks you out. So while you made the decision of not obeying him, it’s not like you want to be homeless.

Although for me personally, I don’t really see it like that (just repeating the sentiment they seem to have) I see it as God threw a really heavy cross on us and if we are unable to carry it, we go to hell.

Depressed people often say such. They have a “God won’t make my life easy, so he must hate me attitude.”
People in hell are not hapless victims. They did evil things. They did not ask for mercy. They refused to help carry the cross of Christ. Thos are ALL choices.

One does not have to understand everything that ever happens to us. That’s a fallacy.
One has to react with grace, love, forgiveness, and tenderness, just as Christ did.

peace

 

[Wesrock]

I don’t think being damned is as simple as refusing it. We refuse it through our actions, sure, but it’s not like every soul in hell made the conscious decision of going to hell.

It does, though, in the sense that each and every soul makes a personal choice about what it’s attached to. Those more attached to vanities and evil than true goodness and refuse to renounce them go to Hell.

God wanted His creatures to be free to choose or reject Him, and God is more than some arbitrary being in the sky: He is in Himself absolute goodness and truth, such that goodness and truth in our world are analogous to who God is in Himself.

We also cannot deny that humans and all rational beings are responsible for their choices. We cannot brush off that culpability. That the unjust demand justice and that those who associate themselves with the good may merit reward are not unjust propositions, nor does any man or angel have an inherent right to God’s glory.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

We wouldn’t go to Hell if we were never created.

Sounds good:The Fewness of the Saved - The Majority of Mankind are Damned

 

[seagal]

God knew His creatures would eventually commit evil yet He created them. He also didn’t offer Beatific Vision to His creature, the only way to prevent evil. So He left His creature waiting for evil to happen.

I would say this is essentially accurate. By creating us with free will, God did know that we have the capacity to choose against his will, which is evil. We will not know the beatific vision until we are with God in Heaven, so we have to try to get by without it. But you’re right, evil in this world is inevitable.

However, the way you phrased your last sentence makes God sound like an evil scientist bringing into being his little creatures in the worst circumstances possible, wringing his hands with glee when he sees all the trouble they’ll get into. Maybe I’m reading more into it than you intended, but it seems to me that all your threads show God in the worst possible light, and indicate to me that you have absolutely no understanding of how we Christians see God. What you’re [deliberately?] missing is God’s love. His purpose in creating us was to have us with him in paradise. He revealed himself to prophets throughout time, teaching us how to live the way we should. He gave us his law, He even sent his own son to die for us. Even now he helps us when we ask him to. In short, he has done and is doing everything he possibly can to help us.

Instead of asking all these purposeless questions, I sincerely encourage you, in fact I challenge you, to read the bible and see what you’re really missing. You call yourself Seeking The Truth. I don’t think you really are.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Blaming God because you can’t ask forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconcilliation?

 

[po18guy]

God knew His creatures would eventually commit evil yet He created them. He also didn’t offer Beatific Vision to His creature, the only way to prevent evil. So He left His creature waiting for evil to happen.

Methinks you think too much. Do not make God into a fallible human, which is what you seem to have done.

Note that you are using purely human reasoning, and not enlightened reasoning.

 

[davidv]

God’s house isn’t a threat, it’s more of the fact that maybe God isn’t as loving as we say he is= a cold or distant God/a God that likes some more than others/insert whatever perception one has.

Jesus’ suffering death and resurrection are strong evidence against such an idea.

Being on his side is still better than the alternative (being damned)

I don’t think being damned is as simple as refusing it. We refuse it through our actions, sure, but it’s not like every soul in hell made the conscious decision of going to hell.

All Church teaching indicates it is that simple.

So if we want to compare with a real father, I guess it would kind of be like you don’t like his rules and you don’t find him to be reasonable, and because of that, he kicks you out. So while you made the decision of not obeying him, it’s not like you want to be homeless.

Although for me personally, I don’t really see it like that (just repeating the sentiment they seem to have) I see it as God threw a really heavy cross on us and if we are unable to carry it, we go to hell.

Your and my cross are not nearly as heavy as the one Jesus carried.

 

[IWantGod]

God knew His creatures would eventually commit evil yet He created them. He also didn’t offer Beatific Vision to His creature, the only way to prevent evil. So He left His creature waiting for evil to happen.

Yeah it would be great if God just gave us absolute heaven and sanctity from day 1.

What about the value of free-will? Is it even possible for God to give us what we don’t really want in our hearts or have not chosen for ourselves? Love by definition does not force you to choose it. You have to choose love.

I think most people approach life as a user experience. They want to do what they want and while doing that experience the least suffering possible. People want love and goodness only insofar as they define it. They are pragmatic about the idea of goodness but they don’t really respect it, at least not enough to be servants of it. They want to be God. They don’t really care about God’s love or God’s good or God’s righteousness or God himself.

God wants us to be saints, he wants us to express ourselves in his image. God wants us to be servants of Love. But do you really want that? Or do you want your own kingdom with your own rules.

Some people would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven.

 

[Vico]

God knew His creatures would eventually commit evil yet He created them. He also didn’t offer Beatific Vision to His creature, the only way to prevent evil. So He left His creature waiting for evil to happen.

Without free will there is no ability to be express charity, so it was necessary to have free will. There is no way to prevent evil while allowing free will.

Also, something greater occurs. Catechism 412
… God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’" 308
308 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III,1,3, ad 3; cf. Rom 5:20.

The Beatific Vision (of the soul) could not have been given since it is the immediate knowledge of God which the angelic spirits and the souls of the just enjoy in Heaven, not the mediate knowledge of God that the human mind knows, and it must be chosen by final perseverance which is the proof of charity through which one is crowned. That one will receive a glorified resurrected body and the soul will receive the Beatific Vision. St. Paul: 2 Timothy 2
3 Labour as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No man, being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular businesses; that he may please him to whom he hath engaged himself. 5 For he also that striveth for the mastery, is not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

 

[e_c]

God knew His creatures would eventually commit evil yet He created them. He also didn’t offer Beatific Vision to His creature, the only way to prevent evil. So He left His creature waiting for evil to happen.

God creates the cause of sin, but He does not create the deformity of the sin itself. Therefore, He does not cause the wickedness of the sinner, the sinner himself does and earns his punishment. God may help anyone whom He so wishes - the BV is not owed to anyone.

What you are condemning is actually Calvinism. God does not create people in order to send them to Hell. He does create people knowing He will send them to Hell after their free choice to reject His help, but this is different. Once again, these people earned their punishment. Those who go to Heaven earn their reward by God’s help.

You remind me of the poster Bahman (may his avatar rest in piece)… You post a million threads that are vague, rhetorical, and easily clarified by a bit of sincere private study of the principles of Catholic theology but are liable to get all mucked up by a thousand little bits of (name removed by moderator)ut from here and there. Bahman is gone now, and not on his own initiative… I hope you can learn from this cautionary tale!

 

[Thom18]

We wouldn’t go to Hell if we were never created.

We couldn’t go to heaven, either.

 

[doomguy93]

Well, for one thing, it’s pretty clear that Jesus was who Adam and Eve saw (we believe that Jesus is the human form of God, the “Son” and Genesis says that God was “walking” in the Garden of Eden, breathing into Adam, performing the first operation on him to create Eve, talking to them etc. so make the necessary connections), so that sounds like the Beatific Vision to me. Second, God had the world in perfect order, was present in the flesh, and everything was a literal utopia until Adam and Eve sinned due to the influence of Satan who apparently communicated with them in some form (unless it’s all an allegory but only God knows). God allowed and continues to allow Satan to exist (let’s assume the fallen angel angle and discount all modern psychiatric theories that say Satan is “in the mind” blah blah blah, let’s assume Satan has all the human characteristics Jesus ascribed to him) because of His mercy; he is waiting for Satan to realize his disgusting ways and turn back to God and worship him again. But God has also predicted this will not happen and God will have to kill Satan and all other evil humans.

God didn’t create evil or death, God tried to steer humans away from it and created perfect and good things. But Adam and Eve doubted that God knew what He was talking about and that was their (and our) downfall.

 

[Vico]

Well, for one thing, it’s pretty clear that Jesus was who Adam and Eve saw (we believe that Jesus is the human form of God, the “Son” and Genesis says that God was “walking” in the Garden of Eden, breathing into Adam, performing the first operation on him to create Eve, talking to them etc. so make the necessary connections), so that sounds like the Beatific Vision to me. Second, God had the world in perfect order, was present in the flesh, and everything was a literal utopia until Adam and Eve sinned due to the influence of Satan who apparently communicated with them in some form (unless it’s all an allegory but only God knows). God allowed and continues to allow Satan to exist (let’s assume the fallen angel angle and discount all modern psychiatric theories that say Satan is “in the mind” blah blah blah, let’s assume Satan has all the human characteristics Jesus ascribed to him) because of His mercy; he is waiting for Satan to realize his disgusting ways and turn back to God and worship him again. But God has also predicted this will not happen and God will have to kill Satan and all other evil humans.

God didn’t create evil or death, God tried to steer humans away from it and created perfect and good things. But Adam and Eve doubted that God knew what He was talking about and that was their (and our) downfall.

Those with the Beatific Vision cannot sin. Note that Ludwig Ott wrote in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, on the Beatific Vision, including Adam and Eve (p. 162):

While the immediate knowledge of God, which is absolutely supernatural, is vouchsafed to other men only in the next world (in statu termini), Christ’s soul possessed it in this world (in statu viae), and indeed, from the very moment of its union with the Divine Person of the Word, that is, from the Conception.

about Jesus Christ (p. 169):

From the Hypostatic Union there arises a physical impossibility of sinning and from the Beatific Vision a moral impossibility that is, it involves such a close connection with God in knowledge and love that a turning away from God is actually excluded.

and the Blessed Virgin Mary (p. 198):
That she did not possess the Beatific Vision is proved by Luke 1, 45: “Blessed art thou who has believed.”

and the angels (p. 118):

They were first in a state of pilgrimage (in statu viae), in which they, through their free co-operation, with grace were required to merit (in statu termini) the Beatific Vision of God.

 

[Lea101]

Depressed people often say such. They have a “God won’t make my life easy, so he must hate me attitude.”
People in hell are not hapless victims. They did evil things. They did not ask for mercy. They refused to help carry the cross of Christ. Thos are ALL choices.

One does not have to understand everything that ever happens to us. That’s a fallacy.
One has to react with grace, love, forgiveness, and tenderness, just as Christ did.

peace

Of course, but some choices are harder to make than others. It’s easier for one to be holy, harder for someone else

 

[Lea101]

It does, though, in the sense that each and every soul makes a personal choice about what it’s attached to. Those more attached to vanities and evil than true goodness and refuse to renounce them go to Hell.

God wanted His creatures to be free to choose or reject Him, and God is more than some arbitrary being in the sky: He is in Himself absolute goodness and truth, such that goodness and truth in our world are analogous to who God is in Himself.

We also cannot deny that humans and all rational beings are responsible for their choices. We cannot brush off that culpability. That the unjust demand justice and that those who associate themselves with the good may merit reward are not unjust propositions, nor does any man or angel have an inherent right to God’s glory.

I’m not saying that I deserve to be in heaven. I’m just saying that it’s not a simple ‘(expletive) God’! We are burdened with temptations each day. Some have more than the others. It’s so exhausting just thinking about it. we have established that God isn’t fair, though, in previous threads. I just think that God doesn’t care about our earthly suffering, or at least for some people. That’s more of an emotional argument than logical, clearly.

 

[Vico]

I’m not saying that I deserve to be in heaven. I’m just saying that it’s not a simple ‘(expletive) God’! We are burdened with temptations each day. Some have more than the others. It’s so exhausting just thinking about it. we have established that God isn’t fair, though, in previous threads. I just think that God doesn’t care about our earthly suffering, or at least for some people. That’s more of an emotional argument than logical, clearly.

God is fair because God is perfect. People are envious because God is generous.

Matthew 20:1-16 **The Workers in the Vineyard.[a] **

1 “The kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out at dawn to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 After agreeing with them for the usual daily wage, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 Going out about nine o’clock, he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and he said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard, and I will give you what is just.’ 5 So they went off. [And] he went out again around noon, and around three o’clock, and did likewise. 6 Going out about five o’clock, he found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ 7 They answered, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You too go into my vineyard.’ 8 [c]When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Summon the laborers and give them their pay, beginning with the last and ending with the first.’ 9 When those who had started about five o’clock came, each received the usual daily wage. 10 So when the first came, they thought that they would receive more, but each of them also got the usual wage. 11 And on receiving it they grumbled against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last ones worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who bore the day’s burden and the heat.’ 13 He said to one of them in reply, ‘My friend, I am not cheating you.[d] Did you not agree with me for the usual daily wage? 14 [e]Take what is yours and go. What if I wish to give this last one the same as you? 15 [Or] am I not free to do as I wish with my own money? Are you envious because I am generous?’ 16 [f]Thus, the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

 

[BrunoMaria]

Strange, that in CAF suchlike accusation of God appears. To the first Created Angels Beatific Vision was natural. Still, legions of them sinned and where judged.

To say: „We wouldn’t go to Hell if we were never created“ is plain daft, for then there where no legions with the overwhelming joy all who are with God in heaven do enjoy. Neither does it make much sense, to say: „If we find ourselves still alive after our last breath, but not in God’s presence, we are in hell“. For before we land there, we must be judged by Jesus Christ. God is not responsible for whomever landing there, it’s the individual who asked for it, by disregarding, refusing, blaspheming, insulting God.

Angriness with God I read just today in a obituary „why did God did this to us - take away our father!“
God NEVER brings any suffering to us! If wife and children accuse God now, then this father’s religious teaching of his family was frivolous and not as distinct as should be. Distinct here as solemn help in life in any situation - through God through prayer.
I do know what I’m talking about, for it was exactly this, great parental Christian education which never „accused“ God - an unthinkable idea - much more so I asked God to take our 26-year old son to Himself when Björn was murdered (found with a smashed back of his head 20 years ago). We both did so, right when the doc told us - „no chance - he is dying“. We never thought „why we - why did God allow this“. Not a second we did! We even honestly forgave the unknown delinquent. Else hate would eat us.
It is the essential determination of humans, to have a free will to decide for good or bad - love God or disregard God. All other creatures can’t. We can act and speak. All other earthly creatures can neither. Science never found out why, as so many creatures got a very complicated brain and live for millions of years. They only react instead of act, and signal instead of speak. We got The Word God gave us as St. John described in John 1,1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and The Word was God.

Of all types of education, familiarity with Christian belief as Christ gave it to us, is by far the most important one, for that only stays with us when all worldly wisdom is forgotten, in our immortality in eternity. Besides of this, it’s the one and only REAL help in life.

Let’s very much doubt, if first people before first sin, saw and walked with God in beatific view - though they heard His voice. Much more so let’s see the complex the way like Moses spoke with God (The Holy Trinity) in the burning bush (Ex 3,4).

Some ask, why God doesn’t let us be in heaven, not offering Beatific Vision in the first place, for it would make sin and evil impossible.
God is the justness Himself, and such idea would be absolutely unfair to the Angels, who got same free will as we do. Unfair even to the devils, for they where penalized for upraising against God. Hence, we couldn’t just have presented what others (Angels/Devils) carved out by making a decision for or against God.
Yes, I here dare to match and put Angels and Devils on one level. Many biblical verses lead to this conclusion. Take just one out of the many - John 6,71: Didn’t I choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?

to be continued in next post as the full post was “too long”

 

[BrunoMaria]

Now, I even read here: My Dad is a cold father. Still, I rather be on his good side than to him kick me out of the house… Likewise, I’d rather be with a cold God than to be tortured forever??
This very remark is beyond any Christian sense, for God created us out of the Love He Himself is.
A inexistent „Cold God“ would be torture itself anyhow. Hell.
And let’s remember, that God never sends anyone into torture, for the absence of God if one has seen Him -Jesus Christ in judgement, is torture itself even then, when Hell would be the greatest place on earth. Just imagine the greatest place you ever knew, but there are homesick, depressed, bummed out ugly demons onlyEvan the condemned look as so their sin looks - ugly. All suffering of not being in beatific view of God. No prayer possible, no physical torture - souls anyhow got no body to be tortured, but this godlessness forever, eternal! This would be the greatest torture thinkable. A fiery lake indeed; even without fire as we know it. Though we do know how much homesickness burns. It kills more than any fire, it is an eternal dying away!

God never burdens upon us more than we can carry. Christ Himself said in Mt 11,30: „My yoke is easy“ and it really is, for if we live in God, joy prevails by far, for we can speak to God any time!

Greatest answer here I found:
"One does not have to understand everything that ever happens to us. That’s a fallacy. One has to react with grace, love, forgiveness, and tenderness, just as Christ did.“
But here I read also: God left His creature waiting for evil to happen.

A definite **NO **on this! God never „waited“ for the Angels around Lucifer to rebel against Him. All Angels could haben stayed true to God. There was no reason at all to rebel and wanting to be like God, who was before all time. Ever more so, since all Angels where in beatific view of God.
Lucifer, who became Satan because he successfully persuaded his legions to uproar against God, told out of jealousy first created people same as he told the Angels: „You can be like God“ Genesis 3,5. He couldn’t stand, that first humans with free will lived in a paradise, whilst he is in netherworld or hell. And yes, he reached to make them disobedient and trespass the one and only command - „Don’t eat of this fruit in the middle of the Eden".
Yes, God does allow Satan to sift us like wheat, so nothing unclean ever enters heaven.

Yes, „it would be great if God just gave us absolute heaven and sanctity from day 1.“
BUT GOD DID! The world God created is absolute heaven and sanctity, but it’s sin, that turned the earth into a place of fear, worry, distrust and therefor insecurity. All and double as many people as live today, could live high on, but it’s sin, greediness, war, missing love that excludes this. It’s we humans who exclude this.

Now, it’s beyond me, that in CAF is also posted:
"God creates the cause of sin“ and another „God has also predicted that He will kill Satan and all other evil humans.“
Both is not biblical, not in the Gospel.

As to evil which destroys the world and kills so many:
To make the choice for holy or evil, is very easy to meet. Evil eats the soul. Holiness is constructive and helps every person who then is at any moment able to speak to God. God does care for our suffering on earth. Christ said in Mt 11,28: Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

 

[ericc]

God knew His creatures would eventually commit evil yet He created them. He also didn’t offer Beatific Vision to His creature, the only way to prevent evil. So He left His creature waiting for evil to happen.

Foreknowledge does not equate to cause. The path to heaven or hell is of you own choosing. We are not owed Beatific Vision. Don’t wait for payment. If you want it bad enough, the path is there. No evil will happen if you don’t choose it. No one will force you to do evil. Mortal sins are done knowingly. If you don’t know, that knowledge can be found out. It is not hidden information. Intentional avoidance of knowledge doesn’t help you in claiming innocence either. The choice is yours. No one here can judge you because Christ himself will be the Judge. He has all the info since he knows your mind, heart and intention. We don’t. Try all your arguments with him when you see him. Have fun and good luck!