Is God responsible for evil for not offering Beatific Vision as a gift?

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God could have done this and God could have done that and things would be much better for us - from finite reasoning on the Infinite and His Reasons.
One way of washing hands of oneself and one’s choices and passing the buck, denying personal responsibility I guess. 😃
Catholic Catechism:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm
Providence and the scandal of evil.

309 If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question: the goodness of creation, the drama of sin and the patient love of God who comes to meet man by his covenants, the redemptive Incarnation of his Son, his gift of the Spirit, his gathering of the Church, the power of the sacraments and his call to a blessed life to which free creatures are invited to consent in advance, but from which, by a terrible mystery, they can also turn away in advance. There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil.

310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world “in a state of journeying” towards its ultimate perfection. In God’s plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.175

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.176 He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
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and i dont play with passive aggressive trolling either. nice try though. good luck to ya.
 
superblue said:
I am not saying that God and the Church created evil, or sin, or Satan, I am though agreeing that Humanity has been put in a no win situation according to the Church.

peace out.
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No win means “of or denoting a situation in which success or a favorable outcome is impossible.”
That is not a Catholic teaching, rather the Catholic teaching is that we have been redeemed by Christ, we can win – receive a crown of glory.
 
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Vico said:
But the Beatific Vision cannot be shared without first being established in virtue through an act of free will.
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Why Beatific Vision cannot be shared without first being established in virtue through an act of free will?
 
Aloysium said:
The way I see it:

Think of the Beatific Vision as something you do. You give everything, your mind, your consciousness, everything that you are over to God who brings it into being. You are united with Him in that moment and with everything else that has been brought into existence. In other words, it is that in which we are participating, and as long as we try to grab it for ourselves, it will remain elusive, because we remain centred on ourselves. Containing us is truth, beauty and joy, very different from a pleasurable imagining that we can contain.
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That clearly doesn’t address the problem I raised.
 
STT said:
That I know and it is not related to our discussion.
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Of course it is. You said God “knew” and you conditioned it with a “yet”. So it is reasonable to postulate that you intend to link his knowledge of his creatures committing evil to some sort of responsibility?
STT said:
That is not related to our discussion either.
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Of course it is. The path to heaven/hell is not dependent on whether one is offered Beatific Vision or not. But rather it is dependent on your choice . Brushing off comments not to your liking does not seems to provide much value for you here though.
STT said:
We are talking about the fact that God committed an evil by creating the universe.
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Plain nonsense without any logic nor proof. A fact? What fact other than stating it? At least state your premise on how you justify your statement. You should know by now grand sweeping statements here don’t mean a lot.
 
there is no acceptable answer that makes any real season to people with , the only acceptable answer are theological ones if you are willing to adhear to and accept theological answers. Versus what ever Graces God has given you.
 
and i am going to keep making grammatical errors just to aggrivate the grammar police on here.
 
Lucretius said:
What evidence do you have that this is true?
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He knows everything, including foreknowledge.
Lucretius said:
St. Athanasius teaches that God offered them Original Justice, which is roughly what you are talking about, yet man rejected it out of disobedience.

I recommend reading St. Athanasius’ work on this subject, On the Incarnation of the Word, for a better understanding of our theology of Original Sin.

Christi pax.
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Is that (bold part) written in Bible or the result of speculation?
 
STT said:
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Vico:
But the Beatific Vision cannot be shared without first being established in virtue through an act of free will.
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Why Beatific Vision cannot be shared without first being established in virtue through an act of free will?
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For Theosis one must be established in charity but to express charity one must have free will. Free will allows for charity or malice, so one must prove their charity to be established in virtue. Without being established in virtue one cannot have the Beatific Vision.
 
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ericc said:
Of course it is. You said God “knew” and you conditioned it with a “yet”. So it is reasonable to postulate that you intend to link his knowledge of his creatures committing evil to some sort of responsibility?
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Yes, I am linking God’s knowledge of evil occurrence with His responsibility but I didn’t link His knowledge with the fact that we are not free.
ericc said:
Of course it is. The path to heaven/hell is not dependent on whether one is offered Beatific Vision or not. But rather it is dependent on your choice . Brushing off comments not to your liking does not seems to provide much value for you here though.
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Here we are talking about the fact that God is responsible for act of creation hence responsible for all acts of evil within. Yes, we can choose but we cannot apparently resist sin completely. Why? Because we are not given Beatific Vision. Who is responsible for this? God.
ericc said:
Plain nonsense without any logic nor proof. A fact? What fact other than stating it? At least state your premise on how you justify your statement. You should know by now grand sweeping statements here don’t mean a lot.
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Why God doesn’t share Beatific Vision?
 
superblue said:
come on we all know God doesn’t literally create evil, it is more He allows evil to happen because well, just because that is how God does things. He doesn’t want a utopia on earth, cause if He did it would already be here, instead, it is a constant battle of pain an suffering that is designed to make us subserviant and reliant upon God. Which isn’t necessarliy bad, considering the pay out is eternity in Heaven, but that doesn’t mean what God allows to happen is fair either. So all we can do is pray for the best and be prepared for the worst.
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Why God didn’t want an utopia on Earth?
 
Vico said:
For Theosis one must be established in charity but to express charity one must have free will. Free will allows for charity or malice, so one must prove their charity to be established in virtue. Without being established in virtue one cannot have the Beatific Vision.
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It is clear that you just repeat yourself (bold part). God can simply reveal himself to us resolve all evils.
 
STT said:
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Vico:
For Theosis one must be established in charity but to express charity one must have free will. Free will allows for charity or malice, so one must prove their charity to be established in virtue. Without being established in virtue one cannot have the Beatific Vision.
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It is clear that you just repeat yourself (bold part). God can simply reveal himself to us resolve all evils.
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The bold part is restating. Just read it like this:
  • For Theosis one must be established in charity but to express charity one must have free will. Free will allows for charity or malice, so one must prove their charity to be established in virtue.
You are saying first that there is evil to be resolved. But we know that for moral evil there must be free will. To then destroy the evil without any individual act of free will means to remove free will.

What is the basis of the statement that: God can simply reveal himself to us [to] resolve all evils?
 
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STT said:
Yes, I am linking God’s knowledge of evil occurrence with His responsibility but I didn’t link His knowledge with the fact that we are not free.
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There is no link between his knowledge vs responsibility for evil. You already agreed foreknowledge does not equate to cause so why bring it up? One can’t be responsible for something not caused by you. You didn’t mention freewill in your rebuttal so I’ll ignore this late addition and treat it as a dodge.
STT said:
Here we are talking about the fact that God is responsible for act of creation hence responsible for all acts of evil within. Yes, we can choose but we cannot apparently resist sin completely. Why? Because we are not given Beatific Vision. Who is responsible for this? God.
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You are resorting to fallacious argument. The Beatific Vision is not the cause of evil. There is no requirement that one must be able to resist sin 100%. The Beatific Vision is the reward. If there is no such reward or the reward is of a different type, your argument falls completely. Whether God offers this reward or not has no bearing on whether one chooses evil or not.
STT said:
Why God doesn’t share Beatific Vision?
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It is not an entitlement. It is a reward for choosing the correct path. It is plain that you can not see the distinction or that you are choosing to ignore its implications.
 
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