Is God the same as Allah?

[dzheremi]

If that’s the case, then you can say the same thing about Jews. Which you can’t, because Jesus is Jewish.

What are you talking about? Of course you can. Our father St. Athanasius the Apostolic, author of the foundational defense of the incarnation of our Lord, says in the very same On The Incarnation that “all scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief.” Are you going to claim that he cannot say that because Jesus is a Jew?

You are free to believe whatever you’d like about the false god of the Christ-deniers, but it’s pretty clear that you absolutely can deny common worship or common identification with any non-Christian group, and in doing so you are in very good company indeed.

Nobody worships God without Christ. Nobody.

 

[whoisdiss]

The word Allah (الله ) is Arabic for God or in more literal terms, “The God.” Both Christianity and slam are Abrahamic faiths who share the same prophets, similar writings, and the same God. Arab Christians call God “Allah” all of the time. So Allah is the same God as the Christian and Jewish God.

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God bless.

 

[PRmerger]

Nobody worships God without Christ. Nobody.

So can you tell me who Moses was worshipping?

 

[dzheremi]

You notice how that statement from St. Athanasius the Apostolic is from On the Incarnation, PRMerger? There’s a reason for that. Christians have traditionally divided the world’s timeline between the time before Christ’s incarnation and after it (heck, even in secular societies we still do this – AD and BC were common up until a few years ago when that whole “CE” and “BCE” nonsense started coming into regular speech and writing from academia; I’ve never understood how that’s supposed to be a good secular alternative, as the number it follows is still relative to Christ’s coming). So there is no contradiction between saying that the Jews and Muslims do not worship God, and yet Moses did. This is supported by other events marked in Christian history since the beginning, for instance our affirmation that He “descended into Hades”, a reference to Christ’s freeing those who had died before His incarnation from the bonds of death. As the Byzantines chant most famously “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and offering life to those in the tombs”. These would be inclusive of the prophets and other righteous men and women who died prior to Christ, including Moses of course.

Modern Jews, Muslims, etc., living as they have for 2000/1400 years after the coming of Christ, cannot be treated in the same light. They maintain a principled rejection of Christ our God, which is something that is not acceptable by any Biblical or Patristic standard.

 

[PRmerger]

You notice how that statement from St. Athanasius the Apostolic is from On the Incarnation, PRMerger? There’s a reason for that. Christians have traditionally divided the world’s timeline between the time before Christ’s incarnation and after it (heck, even in secular societies we still do this – AD and BC were common up until a few years ago when that whole “CE” and “BCE” nonsense started coming into regular speech and writing from academia; I’ve never understood how that’s supposed to be a good secular alternative, as the number it follows is still relative to Christ’s coming). So there is no contradiction between saying that the Jews and Muslims do not worship God, and yet Moses did. This is supported by other events marked in Christian history since the beginning, for instance our affirmation that He “descended into Hades”, a reference to Christ’s freeing those who had died before His incarnation from the bonds of death. As the Byzantines chant most famously “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and offering life to those in the tombs”. These would be inclusive of the prophets and other righteous men and women who died prior to Christ, including Moses of course.

Modern Jews, Muslims, etc., living as they have for 2000/1400 years after the coming of Christ, cannot be treated in the same light. They maintain a principled rejection of Christ our God, which is something that is not acceptable by any Biblical or Patristic standard.

Ah. I see, then.

So did you want to clarify this statement you made originally? It would appear, then, that you didn’t actually mean “NOBDODY”.

Nobody worships God without Christ. Nobody.

 

[dzheremi]

No. I meant nobody. I would never back away from that. I am a Christian, and I do maintain this traditional division between the world as it was before Christ’s incarnation and after, which is what makes it possible to claim what I have claimed in the first place. Had the world after Christ’s coming continued on as it was before, then you would have a point in trying to destroy this distinction to the benefit of Christ-deniers. But Christianity is true, and these other things are not, so it is still the case that nobody worships God without Christ. Those who did so in OT times are evident through the prophets who foretold His coming (as in St. John the Baptist/Forerunner’s assertion that “He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me”), and those who followed Him after that time are those who maintain that connection to the pre-incarnation times. That’s the whole reason we did not follow the heretic Marcion, you know. Because indeed the God of our Fathers and the Father of Jesus Christ is One God, but that says nothing of the Jews, Muslims, or any number of others who may try to claim Him selectively.

There is a reason why our English word ‘heresy’ comes from the Greek word for “choice” or “choosing”, and it was not too long ago in the grand scheme of things that Christians openly referred to Islam as a type of Christian heresy (which is a viewpoint that is also of ancient provenance; see, for instance, John of Damascus’ excellent writings on Islam). The Jews and Muslims and whoever else try to worship God without Christ, and since that is not possible, they fail. So their god is not our God, but it is by their choice, their refusal, that this is the case. Not because there is actually more than one God.

 

[PRmerger]

No. I meant nobody. I would never back away from that. I am a Christian, and I do maintain this traditional division between the world as it was before Christ’s incarnation and after, which is what makes it possible to claim what I have claimed in the first place. Had the world after Christ’s coming continued on as it was before, then you would have a point in trying to destroy this distinction to the benefit of Christ-deniers. But Christianity is true, and these other things are not, so it is still the case that nobody worships God without Christ. Those who did so in OT times are evident through the prophets who foretold His coming (as in St. John the Baptist/Forerunner’s assertion that “He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me”), and those who followed Him after that time are those who maintain that connection to the pre-incarnation times. That’s the whole reason we did not follow the heretic Marcion, you know. Because indeed the God of our Fathers and the Father of Jesus Christ is One God, but that says nothing of the Jews, Muslims, or any number of others who may try to claim Him selectively.

There is a reason why our English word ‘heresy’ comes from the Greek word for “choice” or “choosing”, and it was not too long ago in the grand scheme of things that Christians openly referred to Islam as a type of Christian heresy (which is a viewpoint that is also of ancient provenance; see, for instance, John of Damascus’ excellent writings on Islam). The Jews and Muslims and whoever else try to worship God without Christ, and since that is not possible, they fail. So their god is not our God, but it is by their choice, their refusal, that this is the case. Not because there is actually more than one God.

Okey dokey, then.

So if you could answer the question: what god was Moses worshipping, then?

 

[fnr]

What are you talking about? Of course you can. Our father St. Athanasius the Apostolic, author of the foundational defense of the incarnation of our Lord, says in the very same On The Incarnation that “all scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief.” Are you going to claim that he cannot say that because Jesus is a Jew?

No, I’m not. “Jewish unbelief” is not a blanket statement that Jews don’t believe in God the Father. Also, it’s worthwhile to acknowledge that there was a fairly virulent strain of anti-Semitism in many early Church fathers. For example, in Justin Martyr’s “Dialogue with Trypho,” addressing his Jewish companion: “For verily your hand is high to commit evil, because ye slew the Christ, and do not repent of it; but so far from that, ye hate and murder us who have believed through Him in the God and Father of all, as often as ye can; and ye curse Him without ceasing, as well as those who side with Him; while all of us pray for you, and for all men, as our Christ and Lord taught us to do, when He enjoined us to pray even for our enemies, and to love them that hate us, and to bless them that curse us.”

While Jews may not accept Jesus, God does not break his covenants. Romans 11 is a lot about that. Here are some examples… “I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” (Romans 11:1), “All Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26).

Modern Rabbinical Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah, the New Testament as scripture, or other Christian doctrines like the Trinity. Jews do read from the Tanakh, the same Old Testament canon (in slightly different order) that Protestants today use. When a Jew reads Exodus or Jeremiah, it’s the same words we read. It’s the same God.

You are free to believe whatever you’d like about the false god of the Christ-deniers, but it’s pretty clear that you absolutely can deny common worship or common identification with any non-Christian group, and in doing so you are in very good company indeed.

It’s true they deny Jesus Christ, and that they therefore are not worshiping God in the way he wants. Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s promises to Israel. That Jews don’t recognize that doesn’t mean they don’t still recognize God.

 

[dzheremi]

PRmerger, fnr:

I’m not interested in getting into a protracted discussion/debate with either of you (or anyone) on these matters. Reading through my previous posts should make my position clear: No non-Christian religion worships God, because it is not possible to worship God without Christ. He who has not the Son has not the Father either. The god of the Christ-deniers is not the true God. Christ has no accord with Bilal. I know this is not the modern Roman Catholic stance, but since I’m not Roman Catholic that doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be surprising in the slightest. I have nothing more to add on this topic.

 

[Thorns]

So can you tell me who Moses was worshipping?

Moses permitted divorce and participated in executions that were mandated by God. Sounds like he worshipped a different God than the one Christians know and worship today.



Unless you’re saying modern Christians are justified in stoning those who break the law and that divorce (and remarriage) is still pernitted…

In which case, more:

 

[celestialhost]

I’ve never been comfortable with the idea that Muslims worship the same God as Christians, but the Catholic Church clearly states this in official documents. I therefore surrender my objections to what the magisterium has taught.

I am a bit surprised by all the Catholics on this thread denying that Allah is the same God. How do you get around the official statements on this question?

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger, fnr:

I’m not interested in getting into a protracted discussion/debate with either of you (or anyone) on these matters. Reading through my previous posts should make my position clear: No non-Christian religion worships God, because it is not possible to worship God without Christ. He who has not the Son has not the Father either. The god of the Christ-deniers is not the true God. Christ has no accord with Bilal. I know this is not the modern Roman Catholic stance, but since I’m not Roman Catholic that doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be surprising in the slightest. I have nothing more to add on this topic.

That’s too bad.

It appears that you have backed yourself into a corner with saying that NOBODY worships God without Christ, but then being unable to answer who it was that Moses worshipped.

 

[PRmerger]

Moses permitted divorce and participated in executions that were mandated by God. Sounds like he worshipped a different God than the one Christians know and worship today.

So who was he worshipping?

 

[Thorns]

I’ve never been comfortable with the idea that Muslims worship the same God as Christians, but the Catholic Church clearly states this in official documents. I therefore surrender my objections to what the magisterium has taught.

I am a bit surprised by all the Catholics on this thread denying that Allah is the same God. How do you get around the official statements on this question?

Historically it might be the same God, since Mohammed was a Christian and then left to create his new religion. I would say that his recreation of God is wrong and therefore not the same God in realitily.

I feel that the official statement in the Catechism is just being politically correct.

 

[Thorns]

So who was he worshipping?

I have no clue, still trying to figure that one out.

I dont completely agree with the statement that nobody loves God without Christ. One can love all the things God stands for without knowing Him by name.or appearance, and therefore love God. It seems like all the things God stood for in thw OT are drastically different.

 

[celestialhost]

Historically it might be the same God, since Mohammed was a Christian and then left to create his new religion. I would say that his recreation of God is wrong and therefore not the same God in realitily.

I feel that the official statement in the Catechism is just being politically correct.

It does seem rather politically correct, but it is based on statements made in Lumen Gentium and therefore intended to be received and believed by the faithful.

 

[dzheremi]

That’s too bad.

It appears that you have backed yourself into a corner with saying that NOBODY worships God without Christ, but then being unable to answer who it was that Moses worshipped.

I thought I already answered that in posts #65 and #67. The prophets and patriarchs of the OT worshiped God. The Jews, Muslims, and others who have rejected Christ do not.

 

[PRmerger]

I have no clue, still trying to figure that one out.

He was worshipping the same God we worship, Thorns.

There is only One God.

And He revealed Himself first to the Jews.

The God that the Jews worshipped was none other than the God of Abraham, who is the same God that we worship.

That they thought that this God permitted executions and divorce was a defect in their understanding.

It is not an indication of their worship of some other god, like Baal, or Zeus or Athena.

 

[PRmerger]

The prophets and patriarchs of the OT worshiped God.

Without Christ?

 

[Thorns]

He was worshipping the same God we worship, Thorns.

There is only One God.

And He revealed Himself first to the Jews.

The God that the Jews worshipped was none other than the God of Abraham, who is the same God that we worship.

That they thought that this God permitted executions and divorce was a defect in their understanding.

It is not an indication of their worship of some other god, like Baal, or Zeus or Athena.

Those wrathful and legalistic commands all start out with “And the LORD said to Moses _________”

I used to think it was a defect too, but that isnt the answer after all.