Is God the same as Allah?

[Apotheoun]

I have posted the Hagioretic Tome on my Facebook timeline. If you have a Facebook account you can click on the link below in order to read that document:

Hagioretic Tome

If you don’t have Facebook send me a private message and I will send you the text of the document linked above.

 

[Apotheoun]

I don’t have a problem with any of the above.

That is why we say that anyone who worships God, whether he is a Christian or not, worships the Triune God to the degree that what he worships is consonant with the Truth.

The only true worship of God is the oblation of Christ. I do not believe in “non-Christian” worship.

 

[PRmerger]

The only true worship of God is the oblation of Christ. I do not believe in “non-Christian” worship.

Well, if the Jewish prophets could have been worshipping God without implicit knowledge of Christ, then so, too, can Muslims, Bahais, Jews, etc etc

 

[thinkandmull]

The only true worship of God is the oblation of Christ. I do not believe in “non-Christian” worship.

If they pray with a sincere heart, it is done in Christ. Jesus told St. Faustina that everyone is enclosed in the Sacred Heart

 

[Apotheoun]

Well, if the Jewish prophets could have been worshipping God without implicit knowledge of Christ, then so, too, can Muslims, Bahais, Jews, etc etc

Your posts evince confusion about the economy of salvation, or to put it another way, you seem to hold a viewpoint that is economically pre-incarnate. Now, since the incarnation of the eternal Logos what was implicitly believed and experienced is now explicitly declared, and so it is no longer sufficient to simply believe in an implicit manner (or even just refrain from denying what has been made explicit); instead, one must positively affirm what Christ revealed during His earthly ministry. If this were not so, it follows that there would actually be no reason at all to preach the Gospel, and the Great Commission of Christ would become pointless. Non-Christian religions prior to the incarnation can be seen as a proto-evangelium of sorts, but that can not be said any longer. Of course Islam would not qualify at all, because it is a false religion that originated only 600 years after the incarnation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

Your posts evince confusion about the economy of salvation, or to put it another way, you seem to hold a viewpoint that is economically pre-incarnate. Now, since the incarnation of the eternal Logos what was implicitly believed and experienced is now explicitly declared, and so it is no longer sufficient to simply believe in an implicit manner (or even just refrain from denying what has been made explicit); instead, one must positively affirm what Christ revealed during His earthly ministry. If this were not so, it follows that there would actually be no reason at all to preach the Gospel, and the Great Commission of Christ would become pointless. Non-Christian religions prior to the incarnation can be seen as a proto-evangelium of sorts, but that can not be said any longer. Of course Islam would not qualify at all, because it is a false religion that originated only 600 years after the incarnation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You can’t have it both ways, Apotheoun.

You can’t say someone is implicitly worshipping the Triune God, while also declaring, “Unless someone explicitly worships the Incarnate Christ he is worshipping a false god!”

 

[Apotheoun]

You can’t have it both ways, Apotheoun.

You can’t say someone is implicitly worshipping the Triune God, while also declaring, “Unless someone explicitly worships the Incarnate Christ he is worshipping a false god!”

I most certainly can have it both ways, because the economy of salvation is different after the incarnation. Your position involves, whether you know it or not, a denial of the incarnation, and I cannot go along with that.

As far as the false god of Islam is concerned, Muhammad spoke to this “god” and it said quite explicitly that it would never beget a son. What Christian in his right mind would say that he worships the same “god” as Muhammad?

 

[Apotheoun]

As a Melkite Catholic I hold that the only true worship (right glory) is the offering of Christ through His incarnation, death upon the cross, and resurrection. There is no other act of worship acceptable to the Father in heaven. The Son worships the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit, and this is the constant teaching of the Holy Fathers. Anything else is a form of innovation.

 

[Apotheoun]

With absolute conviction of divine faith I say:

“Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the anti-Christ, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.”

Those who follow the teaching of Muhammad deny the Son of God, and in doing so they deny also the Father. It is not possible to worship God the Father while simultaneously rejecting His only begotten Son, and that is precisely what Muhammad did in the Qur’an.

 

[thinkandmull]

I agree. The patriarchs and prophets of old worshipped the Triune God (see the Hagioretic Tome).

As far as Muslims are concerned, they worship the false god who spoke to Muhammad. At best this false god is a complete fiction, while at worst it is a demon. I tend to hold to the latter idea.

So all Muslims are demon worshippers? That’s stupid. God is real, their beliefs are real, and that is all that is real. If their beliefs are sincere, then they believe in God

 

[thinkandmull]

This “economy” **** doesn’t change the fact of people’s hearts, now as in the old Testament. Their minds may be confused, but you can’t judge peoples hearts, where the Holy Spirit moves

 

[PRmerger]

I most certainly can have it both ways, because the economy of salvation is different after the incarnation.

This is a non-sequitur, Apotheoun.

No one is denying that the economy of salvation is different after the incarnation.

But either one can worship God, through an implicit worship of Christ, or one can’t.

If your position is that one cannot worship God except through an explicit worship of Christ, then you have denied teaching of your Church. And you have become a pope unto yourself.

]As far as the false god of Islam is concerned, Muhammad spoke to this “god” and it said quite explicitly that it would never beget a son. What Christian in his right mind would say that he worships the same “god” as Muhammad?

Well, Muhammad was wrong about that. Just as he was wrong about a lot of things.

But that doesn’t mean that everything he taught was wrong.

I must ask you: Presbyterians are quite explicit in their denial of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Are you of the opinion that no Catholic “in his right mind” would say that Presbyterians worship the same “Christ” as Catholics do?

 

[dzheremi]

This “economy” **** doesn’t change the fact of people’s hearts, now as in the old Testament. Their minds may be confused, but you can’t judge peoples hearts, where the Holy Spirit moves

This “economy ****” is nothing other than the salvation of the entire creation. How can you write of it so dismissively?

Lord have mercy.

 

[thinkandmull]

He was sounding as if hearts have changed since the old Testament, with everyone being culpable for their non-Christianity, which is wrong. If they have a good heart, their prayers go to the real God, besides whatever name or idea of Him they have…

 

[GaryTaylor]

So all Muslims are demon worshippers? That’s stupid. God is real, their beliefs are real, and that is all that is real. If their beliefs are sincere, then they believe in God

Its not stupid, its plausible, think about this for a moment. For sure God is Christ who indeed is real, and you can really think and believe your worshiping God and reject Christ. But whom would you be worshiping and how would you know? Being that there is one God, it doesn’t stand to reason you worship the one God.

Lets look at this another way. Lucifer who indeed believes God exists and indeed refused to follow or worship Him, built his own kingdom here and after here, and certainly needed human followers to fill both areas as God completes the communion of Saints thus His Kingdom.

There’s no reason to believe the same supernatural formula isn’t used. He doesn’t have to tempt one soul at a time, in continuous succession. He could have tempted Mohammed and Mohammed could very well have introduced sublime worship to the devil. There could indeed be and entire religion following Lucifer. Just as with Hitler or Nero. Everyone is subject to the 7-deadly sins from the on-set. All have one or two, when you entertain one all seven are then active.

Why would anyone deem an obvious corrupt individual with some form of non-existing virtue, truth is for every virtue there is an opposing sin. So what virtue is displayed which we deem is of God? Faith, Hope and Charity thus Love? Faith we see, Hope is for world conversion by the sword, and charity and love is for whom and where? Its seen with the way the least of them is corrupted and often results in blood sacrifice. Just as we see in the Holy Land today.

It would be about the same as some denomination killing and raping in Gods name, then us here saying, oh they believe in the God of Abraham because there’s one God. While they deny the one God which exits and verbally. You may be ignorant in worship but being ignorant with the spiritual law doesn’t equate to salvation and as your ignorance becomes action your involvement with the seven deadly sins increase’s and becomes closer to reality.

Who would want to kill all the Christians and Jews? You would say oh thats only the radical followers. But the radical followers, follow the same guidelines of worship 5X daily and from the same book. So the seven deadly sins corrupt completely within this realm.

How do you know who is Christian? Certainly not because they claim they believe in God. That may be a response that requires further conversation, but its not an affirmation of truth, its a statement which may or may not be a true.

Mohammed is a false prophet, the Quran isn’t the word of God and at no time was it considered to be so. So how do you follow a false prophet read a false book and follow the true God and born in a state of sin, introduced to the arena of the seven deadly sins.

I say as Islam said, Allah is the greatest deceiver. But I don’t worship the deceiver or the fact of its truth. In fact, the Quran states that Allah actually raises wicked individuals to deceive and scheme. And further commands people to do evil so that he can then have a reason to destroy them!

Allah may be the greatest deceiver as explained, and he may have deceived an entire religion by converting the most needed to convert the rest or at least as many who can’t find the exist to the maze. Same as with Mohammed.

Just saying. But yes aside from all that there is one God.

We know sin by those who sin, we don’t have to read minds just watch the good works.

 

[blaskoman]

Without having read the posts on this topic, my answer to the question is No (pre VatII) and Yes (post VatII). Your choice.

 

[celestialhost]

Without having read the posts on this topic, my answer to the question is No (pre VatII) and Yes (post VatII). Your choice.

Have any authoritative pre-Vatican II church documents stated that Muslims worship a different god?

I’ still waiting for those Catholics here who take the ‘different god’ view to explain what they do with the Catechism and Lumen Gentium.

I’m a novice to Catholicism and want to be educated.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Have any authoritative pre-Vatican II church documents stated that Muslims worship a different god?

I’ still waiting for those Catholics here who take the ‘different god’ view to explain what they do with the Catechism and Lumen Gentium.

I’m a novice to Catholicism and want to be educated.

Authoritative? Thats the trump card. I think everyone is aware of 841 in Christianity. Still the topic comes up now and again. Its not so much the comprehension of 841 itself, its the understanding behind and with history which causes conflict as discussed earlier. Its fair that people seek to understand.

“The root of evil is error and the root of error is ignorance. If we want to root out evil, we must teach the truth. It is not enough to believe. With God’s grace, which means reflection and prayer, you must understand what you believe.” St. Robert Bellarmine

 

[Even_So]

I have gotten more that i hoped for here. Great answers, debates, and maybe still a whole lotta confusion for some. I have a few comments to posts, and prolly some questions of my own. But i have learned quite a bit by copying your own denominations and seeing what the are.

Well let’s put it this way: allah is a god, and the Blessed Trinity is the God.

Nice

QUOTE=josie L;12198779]The God of the Old Testament is not wrathful, He is slow to anger, i.e., the evils that were perpetrated in those days were so grotesque I’m surprised humanity survived. Moreover, it was not so much that God commanded killings as He was seeking to protect His people from being killed. I must add that God is not just a God of mercy but of justice, i.e., He has the power (knowledge) to judge the living and the dead.

God bless!

I digress, see response below. I feel people do not fear God as they should.Too many take Him for granted.

The God of the Old Testament was wrathful and commanded killings. The God that we are taught about today is merciful and commands to love our enemies. Sounds like a different God to me.

Have some of your contemporaries explain the Day of the Lord to you

QUOTE=howirenic;12197656]There is only one God, so if a Muslim claims to worship Him, he would be mistaken only in his understanding of God, not in Who he worships.

At first i liked your answer, but the more i thought of it; if we are mistaken in identifying who God is then who are we worshiping.

QUOTE=Casilda;12198045]Kind of like a devout Jew would say he worships the God of Abraham, yet denies that Christ is His son. They worship, yet with misunderstanding.

I voted no because a former Muslim who is now a Christian told me their conversion story.

That would be great to hear.

Allah may be what Muslims think is the same as the One True God, but they are egregiously mistaken. Muslim theology says that God/Allah can nullify His own words; hypothetically, He could tell us all to worship idols or become Catholic! So why even be Muslim?

It should also be noted that the Quran says Alexander the Great was a Muslim, even though he died almost a thousand years before Muhammad.

Poses another question: Did Muhammed pervert the name of Allah?

Since the question is “Is God the same as Allah” the answer becomes less straightforward.

There is God. He is Himself and unchanging. So when a Muslim prays to God (“Allah”), it is God to whom they pray. BUT, their understand of God is very skewed, therefore, God in their understanding is different from God in reality. So, “Allah” is not the SAME as God, theologically. But in reality God is God.

It would a different situation if say, a Hindu was praying to Vishnu. That is an entirely different “god”. In that instance we cannot say that the prayers of the Hindu to Vishnu are heard by God, because they are directed at Vishnu. But the Muslim directs his prayers at God, false though his perception of God may be.

Hence the confusion.

Without the right context, how can you answer this? It’s purely subjective.

My take is that “Allah” is now the pop-culturally accepted god of Islam. And that god is not what we know of Chritianity’s God. As such, no, Allah is not same as God.

Some have brought up the language aspect, that Allah literally translates to God. I speak French and we call God “Dieu”. However, if the French had their own brand of theology where Dieu was identified with something other than Christianity’s God, then, when speaking English, I would not refer to Him as Dieu.

In fact, with the bastardization of so many christian theologies, I’m reluctant to call the god of such-and-such a denomonation the same God we worship. You don’t believe in the Eucharist, preach that God accepts homosexuality, is not a Trinity and that abortion is okay? Sorry, in this case, god is not God.

This questions, “Is God the same as Allah” is too subjective and seems to boil down to a collequal debate or a linguistics/grammatical discussion. But don’t fool yourselves, the god of Islam is nothing if not a pale shadow of God. And saying they are one in the same is dangerous when in the wrong context and if the audience doesn’t have a pretty good theological footing.

Excellent points

 

[Even_So]

QUOTE=esieffe;12205815]I voted yes, but really, I am not sure. I would say no based on my eyes, but some things I have read about Islam suggest it MIGHT be so. So really there should have been a third choice like IDK or maybe.

Good point, should’ve had not sure for a 3rd option. My bad.

QUOTE=(name removed by moderator);12206474]Dare is rather a strong way of putting it - I pointed out that if you did so you would find the responses interesting. I trust you see my point now.

PM sent apologizing for using word dare.

'zactly.

A parallel: Mormons, JWs worship the same God as we do. Their theology is still wrong, though. Esp. when it comes to their Christology.

Again, then do we worship the same God if they twist it? That’s my question. I do not worship their god; they think they worship God. Their God is themselves if you read babochka’s excellent link in post #2.

No, of course God is not a liar. As if.

But just as some Christian denominations proclaim some things that are not true (for example, that God hates homosexuals, per the Westboro Baptist Church), that does not mean that Christ is a liar.

The WBC is simply wrong about Jesus on that particular issue.
Just like the Muslims are wrong about God on that particular issue (believers being slaves).

We shouldn’t count the WBC as a denomination. They are almost like Muslim extremists

QUOTE=fmchan52;12212413]I would have to say I don’t know. In knowing, that I don’t know, I may know more than
many who profess to know, but don’t know half of what they think they know. Know
what I mean?

Nobody worships God without Christ. Nobody.

Amen, Amen, and Amen!

Ah. I see, then.

So did you want to clarify this statement you made originally? It would appear, then, that you didn’t actually mean “NOBDODY”.

See John 1. The Jews reject God if they reject Christ as dzheremi stated. 1 John 2:23.
Did Jesus go into Hell to save those who lived by faith? ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/christs-descent-into-hell/

QUOTE=thinkandmull;12213342]It sounds like all these arguments are over semantics. Yes they believe in one God like we do, and if in good conscience, pray to the same God we do

We can use our conscience to believe anything, which may be blasphemous.

This “economy” **** doesn’t change the fact of people’s hearts, now as in the old Testament. Their minds may be confused, but you can’t judge peoples hearts, where the Holy Spirit moves

My opinion would be you do not know the Holy Spirit with a comment like that. Hmmm, wonder what **** could mean?

He was sounding as if hearts have changed since the old Testament, with everyone being culpable for their non-Christianity, which is wrong. If they have a good heart, their prayers go to the real God, besides whatever name or idea of Him they have…

Is that how it works? Flirting with disaster here…

Questions of my own

Why did the Hebrews, or Jews if different, use the plural tem Elohim? Did the Rabbi’s use it? I believe the Oriental Orthodox also may have originally called God Allah. After all did God not confound the languages at the tower of Babel? And how did the Magi know to worship the Baby Messiah, Jesus Christ? Maybe part of the plan was to simplify salvation so we wouldn’t have these controversial discussions. We all should believe salvation is thru Jesus. As for the past? We won’t know til the role is called up yonder. Awesome, awesome, discussions!