Is God the same as Allah?

[PRmerger]

Again, then do we worship the same God if they twist it? That’s my question. I do not worship their god; they think they worship God. Their God is themselves if you read babochka’s excellent link in post #2.

When they worship God in truth, they are worshipping the same God.

So when a JW says we worship God who revealed Himself through the Bible, we say We are worshipping the same God.

When a JW says we worship a god who is NOT trinitarian, we say, nope.

We shouldn’t count the WBC as a denomination. They are almost like Muslim extremists

By what authority do you tell us who we can count as a denomination and whom we can’t?

They certainly consider themselves worthy enough to be counted!

 

[PRmerger]

I must ask you: Presbyterians are quite explicit in their denial of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Are you of the opinion that no Catholic “in his right mind” would say that Presbyterians worship the same “Christ” as Catholics do?

Apotheoun: would you mind answering the above question?

I have been offline for a few days, so I apologize if I missed your response.

 

[PRmerger]

If they do not worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three Persons who are one in essence, indivisible, uncreated, and without beginning or end, then I would say that we do not worship the same God. There are many who call themselves Christians who do not do so. We are warned explicitly in the scriptures that there shall arise false Christs (Matthew 24:24) so as to deceive people, and that is indeed what has happened.

So it appears that you are saying that Presbyterians worship the same Christ as we do, even if they deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Is that a correct assessment of your position?

dzhermi: would you mind answering the above question? Thanks.

 

[dzheremi]

dzhermi: would you mind answering the above question? Thanks.

Actually, I do, because it doesn’t have anything to do with anything that I’m talking about in any of my posts. Intra-Christian disagreement about this or that aspect of the Christian faith is qualitatively different than disagreements between wholly separate religions. Don’t muddy the waters to no good effect.

 

[Apotheoun]

Apotheoun: would you mind answering the above question?

I have been offline for a few days, so I apologize if I missed your response.

The only act of worship acceptable to the Father is the oblation of the Son of God made man, which is rendered present through the divine liturgy, or what Western Catholics call the Mass.

Do Presbyterians offer the one oblation of Christ in the Eucharist? No.

Do Presbyterians offer divine worship to God the Father through the Son in the power of the Spirit? No.

Do Presbyterians have a defective faith in Christ? Yes, but so did the Arian heretics, and the Church excluded them from her ranks. The Arians did not worship Christ because they did not believe in Him in an Orthodox manner. I would say that Presbyterians are - like the Arians - heretics, albeit most are material heretics as opposed to formal heretics, but they are heretics nonetheless. I too was once a Protestant heretic, but I left that heresy behind more than twenty years ago, and I did so because I knew that I could not worship and serve God truly as a Protestant.

Now, all of this is really quite beside the point, unless you are trying to argue that Muhammadans are like Protestants. Is that what you are arguing? Are you seriously trying to posit the odd notion that a non-Christian religion (i.e., a form of pagan fatalism) like Islam is somehow related to the Church, and that a false prophet brought a variety of the true faith to the Arab world? To me such an argument is utter nonsense, but if that is what you believe I cannot stop you from affirming it. Such a position is contrary to scripture and tradition, but you have free will and can abuse that freedom in whatever way you wish.

Postscript: To be fair to you I suppose that your question was not meant to imply a connection between Protestantism, a recent Western heresy from an Eastern Christian perspective, and the false religion of Muhammad.

 

[Apotheoun]

Apotheoun: would you mind answering the above question?

I have been offline for a few days, so I apologize if I missed your response.

Now that I answered your question, perhaps you can answer mine, and your answer should be based on the Muslim texts I quoted in my earlier posts (#147 and #149):

Do you really believe that the “god” of Muhammad, a “god” who is the real cause of all sins (e.g., murder, adultery, theft, etc.), and the true God revealed by our Lord Jesus Christ are really one and the same?

 

[dzheremi]

Um…what? Are you asking me that question, Apotheoun, or did you mean to ask that to PRmerger but quoted me by mistake? Because the answer is clearly no, they are not the same God. I haven’t ever said anything to the contrary in this thread…

 

[Apotheoun]

Um…what? Are you asking me that question, Apotheoun, or did you mean to ask that to PRmerger but quoted me by mistake? Because the answer is clearly no, they are not the same God. I haven’t ever said anything to the contrary in this thread…

Yes, I corrected the post. You and PRmerger had posted several posts while I was writing my answer, and when I came back to ask my question I clicked the quote button on the post above mine without seeing the actual text. That’s part of the problem with losing your vision to a degenerative retinal disorder, I don’t always see things as clearly as I should.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh, okay. I figured it was probably a mistake, but didn’t know if maybe you had seen something in the quoted posted that I didn’t. Carry on.

 

[Apotheoun]

Um…what? Are you asking me that question, Apotheoun, or did you mean to ask that to PRmerger but quoted me by mistake? Because the answer is clearly no, they are not the same God. I haven’t ever said anything to the contrary in this thread…

dzheremi,

I think that we are pretty much 100 percent in agreement when it comes to the point at issue in this thread.

May God grant you many years,
Apotheoun

 

[PRmerger]

Actually, I do, because it doesn’t have anything to do with anything that I’m talking about in any of my posts. Intra-Christian disagreement about this or that aspect of the Christian faith is qualitatively different than disagreements between wholly separate religions. Don’t muddy the waters to no good effect.

Well, I suppose, then, that I will have to be satisfied that you have understood my point quite well.

Your unwillingness to answer a very simple question limns the fact that you see you have been inconsistent.

You, obviously, do NOT believe that Presbyterians worship a different Christ, even if they deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Yet you also, inconsistently, say that Muslims worship a different God because of the fact that they deny the dogma of the Trinity.

Inconsistent.

 

[PRmerger]

The only act of worship acceptable to the Father is the oblation of the Son of God made man, which is rendered present through the divine liturgy, or what Western Catholics call the Mass.

Do Presbyterians offer the one oblation of Christ in the Eucharist? No.

Do Presbyterians offer divine worship to God the Father through the Son in the power of the Spirit? No.

Do Presbyterians have a defective faith in Christ? Yes,

You didn’t answer my question, though, Apotheoun.

Do Presbyterians worship a different Christ?

Yes? Or no?

 

[Apotheoun]

You didn’t answer my question, though, Apotheoun.

Do Presbyterians worship a different Christ?

Yes? Or no?

I did answer your question. Presbyterians do not worship Christ, because they do not offer the only acceptable sacrifice, i.e., Christ’s offering upon the cross, since they have broken from the Apostolic Tradition. I do not subscribe to theological or religious indifferentism.

 

[thinkandmull]

You’ll have to elaborate on the moral equivalence. How do you know who’s heart is in the right place do you worship with muslims or indians? Are you saying compared to muslims my heart is in the wrong place?

Where “exactly” and are you making a rash judgement on my worship and faith and heart? Looks like a double standard?

Who bought the word heretic. satanic and the idea of being non the less Christian into the conversation? So they are Christian is what the suggestion is? If not how much less than not could you explain the moral equivalence and between Indians and Christians and muslims and Christians and Protestant and Christians, and Christians and Jews. I can’t quantify the degrees.

Is Mohammed accepted as a Prophet? Is the Quran the word of God? Are muslims anti Christian? What evidence do you have and world wide statements by the arab muslim world they accept Christ? Are they all ignorant and how would you know?

My apology, I really do not know what your stating, many of the comments you assigned to me, are in truth your own words transferred to me as I read here. Needless to say I’m confused.

How extremely wrong? Wrong enough to use these words and heretical and satanic? I really am lost at the moral equivalence. Understand how specific thoughts and words were injected? They are heretical monotheist could you explain what that is and is heaven and salvation assured on this plan?

You are the one who said that Muslims worship the devil, and I said that was a rash judgment, without judging anything about you. St. Paul said in Acts that pagans who worshipped statues could and did in that context of Athens believe AND worship the real God.

 

[Apotheoun]

PRmerger,

If I believed that Presbyterians worshipped Christ, and that they had the true faith, I would convert to Presbyterianism.

Apotheoun

 

[thinkandmull]

You are still confusing head ideas with heart actions. They worship Jesus if they truly love

 

[PRmerger]

I did answer your question. Presbyterians do not worship Christ,

:bigyikes:

Wow. Just wow.

At least you are consistent. I will give you that.

 

[dzheremi]

Well, I suppose, then, that I will have to be satisfied that you have understood my point quite well.

Your unwillingness to answer a very simple question limns the fact that you see you have been inconsistent.

You, obviously, do NOT believe that Presbyterians worship a different Christ, even if they deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Yet you also, inconsistently, say that Muslims worship a different God because of the fact that they deny the dogma of the Trinity.

Inconsistent.

Or maybe I just know where I am posting and would not like to be forced to hoist Catholics by your own petard by virtue of our different attitude toward the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church (e.g., no “Eucharistic adoration” in a monstrance, no dogma of trans-or-any-other-kind-of-substantiation, etc). If you think that differing interpretations of the same command from the One who both Catholics and Presbyterians recognize as the only-begotten Son of God amounts to a different Christ, that’s on you. By that standard, I could (but again, I won’t) argue that Catholics and Orthodox worship a different God, as we disagree on many things concerning our mutually-affirmed religion.

Or maybe (again) I will think it better to repeat what I’ve just told another person from this thread via PM: According to my own priests here at St. Bishoy COC, the standard by which a person or a church is Orthodox is different than the standard by which they may be considered (generically) Christian. In this way, it is not wrong to recognize that there are other Christian churches (i.e., other churches where people try to worship the same Christ as we already do – perfectly, without addition or subtraction – in the Orthodox Church), but it would be wrong if we were to treat them the same as Orthodoxy when they are not Orthodox. We are not indifferent to the things that separate us from you, or from Presbyterians, or from Byzantines, etc.

It appears that the RCC has taken this principle (recognizing the reality that other people try to worship God in other places that are not where we are) and extended it to completely separate, professed non-Christian religions. That is too far, and I cannot in good conscience be okay with it at any level.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger,

If I believed that Presbyterians worshipped Christ, and that they had the true faith, I would convert to Presbyterianism.

Apotheoun

I wasn’t proposing that they had the true faith, only whether you believed if they worshipped the same Christ you did.

Obviously, you think they are worshipping a false deity, so, 'nuff said on that.

I am simply astonished to hear an otherwise rational member of this forum say this, and will say this is the first time I have ever heard a single Orthodox person say that Presbyterians are not worshipping Christ…but, there you go.

 

[thinkandmull]

The Church nor the bible nor Tradition say that you have to have the right ideas in your head in order to pray from the heart to God