Is God the same as Allah?

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I do not worship the god of Muhammad, nor will I ever do so. I am a follower of Jesus Christ, the sole savior of mankind, and I refuse to make belief in Him optional or even lessen His importance in the smallest degree.

Believing in a jumble of abstract concepts is not faith, and it can have no salvific value.
 
PRmerger,

It is apparent that our views differ substantially, and that we are not likely to agree any time soon. I want to thank you for the conversation, and I wish you the best.

Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Apotheoun
 
I do not believe in “imperfect worship.”
I sorta hear what your saying. The people in your own parish cannot all worship perfectly. That would be unlikely.
I believe in Christ and His sole offering, the anamnesis of which is made present in the Church’s liturgy.
I hear what your saying but I can’t connect the above with this. If what your saying is what it sounds like to me, than only those in the Catholic Church are worshiping perfectly and it would seem all the time.

Look, I don’t think we see much different on this point in general, so its not a matter of questioning your position, or faith, I get that. But the above is a bit difficult Apotheoun.
 
PRmerger,

It is apparent that our views differ substantially, and that we are not likely to agree any time soon. I want to thank you for the conversation, and I wish you the best.
As you wish.

It is clear that my arguments have not been able to be refuted.

I take satisfaction in knowing that your departure from this conversation indicates that my points have been heard, loudly and clearly, by you.

I will continue to address the errors of your points for the lurkers.
Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Apotheoun
Amen!
 
I do not worship the god of Muhammad, nor will I ever do so.
Where the god of Muhammad is consonant with the God of Abraham, the God of the NT, the God of the Catholic Church is the degree to which you do, indeed, worship the God of Muhammad.

To the degree that the god of Muhammad departs from the God of Revelation, is the degree to which you do not worship this false concept.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ, the sole savior of mankind, and I refuse to make belief in Him optional or even lessen His importance in the smallest degree.
Indeed.

Worship of Christ is not optional.

I think that is where your very great error lies. You believe that in saying, with our Catholic Church, “together with us [Muslims] adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day” that this means, “Worship of Christ is optional”.

No one has ever posited that in this thread, or in our Church, that worship of Christ is optional.

A parallel is called for here:

Catholicism says, “Prayer to Mary and the saints is a good and righteous thing to do!”

You would then respond, “I am a follower of Jesus Christ, the sole savior of mankind, and I refuse to make belief in Him optional or even lessen His importance in the smallest degree.”

Catholics respond, “Amen! But no one has ever said when we pray to Mary that this means that worship of Jesus Christ is optional. Catholics are perfectly capable of doing both.”

Similarly, when the Magisterium of our Church says that, together with the Muslims, we worship the One True God. we are not saying, “Therefore, worship of Christ is optional”.

Both of the above conclusions in red are nonsequiturs.
Believing in a jumble of abstract concepts is not faith, and it can have no salvific value.
Now this is very Catholic! 👍
 
You have free will and can use it as you deem best. I also have free will and I will remain steadfast in holding to the teaching of sacred scripture and apostolic tradition.
And your free will has permitted you to depart from the teachings of the Church. To simply ignore a section of our catechism that doesn’t appeal to you.
Interesting points but once again a simple reduction of God to abstract concepts. Did Muhammad believe in Christ the sole savior of mankind? Did he accept the dogmas of the incarnation and the trinity? Nope, and so he did not worship - nor did he know - the true God.
He was indeed wrong about rejecting Christ and the incarnation and the trinity.

No one ought to be positing that Muhammad was right about everything.
Nope, Muhammad got that wrong, because Allah is so transcendent that he did not - actually he could not - become incarnate. Muhammad explicitly denied the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the incarnation.
You are very Catholic when you say this! 👍
Yep, Muhammad is wrong and he was no prophet. Perhaps he is a prophet to you, but he is not one to me. I believe he was delusional at best, and an intentional deceiver at worst.
You have gotten this correct, too.
I noticed that you did not reference at all the creed of Hanbali. It seems like you only want to talk in generalities that have no connection at all to actual Muslim doctrines. At least I have actually read Islamic texts and studied the writings of the founders of the different school of Islamic jurisprudence.
Good for you for reading them. There is much in them that is in supreme error.

There is also much in the Islamic texts which is quite consonant with the God of Revelation.
 
Presbyterians do not worship Christ at all, because they have done away with worship (i.e., with the apostolic liturgy).
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Let me anounce, loudly and clearly to all who read Apotheoun’s post above:

THIS IS NOT WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES!
 
The problem with PRmerger’s idea is that it would seem to make God into a sort of flickering light or shape-shifting, amorphous pseudo-being, which is of course not true of the Christian God (that is to say, the true God) at all. Our God was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary and became man, and all of those other things we are supposed to affirm in the Creed. He was substantial. He ate and drank, talked, wept, etc. He was at any rate not a collection of abstract attributes, and there was neither falsehood nor sin in Him. But instead we see the modern Catholic (?) view to be something else, wherein if some belief system that is not Christianity nonetheless says of their god that he/she/it is ____ (some adjective that Christians may also apply to the true God), then the two belief systems, no matter what else they may espouse are therefore worshiping the true God. This makes no sense and is an abuse of the idea of the spermatikos logos (the Word in seed form) to be found most prominently in the writings of Justin Martyr (d. 165), which says that there are aspects (clues, foreshadowings, etc.) of Christ and hence of the truth in every belief system. While we would most definitely affirm that about Islam, it is too far to say, therefore, that since Muslims or Jews or whoever say this or that about their god or gods that we must all be worshiping the same God. Either God is above the attributes we recognize as pertaining to Him with our limited languages and intellects, or He is not. Perhaps this is why Orthodoxy embraces apophatic theology rather than purely cataphatic expressions.

At any rate, the approach that says “Well, Muslims say God is X and we believe God is X, therefore we and Muslims worship the same God” should give anyone pause. Not only is it easy to make dumb analogies like saying that just because your car and my car both have tires doesn’t mean that we’re driving or owning the same car, but this sort of broken theology does a great deal of violence to the very person of Christ and hence the Holy Trinity, and to Islamic theology. Not only do Muslims explicitly deny the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, but what of those attributes that they affirm that we would not, if you’re going to make it all about attributes? If attributes can “make” all gods the same, can they “un-make” him too?

I am reminded of a discussion I got into on this topic here a long time ago. Someone else (I don’t remember who) was trying to explain to me the standard RC line that PRmerger has said about Muslims affirming this and that which we would also affirm as Christians regarding the true God. I asked then, and I would ask again now, that if we should use attributes held in common as a measure of who is worshiping what, then what is to stop me or anyone from inventing a “god” out of whole cloth, selecting those attributes which are most befitting any description of God (omnipotence, creative power, benevolence perhaps, etc.), and affixing this “god” to any thing I wish? Say I have a Coca-Cola can that I begin to worship for some reason, with prostrations, offerings of sacrifice, etc. I describe this can in terms common to both the OT and NT, as well as the Qur’an. What is stopping this can, this “god”, from being recognized by Catholics who think that it is all about abstract terms (keeping in mind that I have used terms that are specific to their understanding of God) as the true God? After all, there is only one God, so isn’t my can to be recognized as God by virtue of the fact that I am offering sincere worship from my heart to it/him? When I posed this situation to the poster in that old thread, he was incredulous. “That’s silly! It’s not possible for a can to be God! You are affirming true attributes but transferring them to something that is incapable of being God!” You don’t say…! :eek::rolleyes:

Now, that is an obvious and stupid example meant to prejudice your reaction in a certain way, but I bring it up again because there’s nothing of the above situation that does not apply directly to Islam, unless you want to argue (which you shouldn’t, as a Christian) that the revelations supposedly received by Muhammad were somehow true and from God, despite the fact that they fall outside of received scripture (you know, the “If anyone should bring another gospel” standard), and directly contradict our experience of Christ (not just a list of abstract attributes!) in 2,000 years of the Christian Church spread throughout the world. To affirm them anyway would essentially make Muhammad a true prophet, which no Christian in their right mind would agree with. If anything, Islam is all the more insidious because it removes the can (i.e., the part that makes its worship and theology patently ridiculous and transparently wrong) such that all you’re essentially left with when looking at it is this set of attributes, drawn from the false claims of Muhammad via his false revelation which is the Qur’an. Think about it: The god of the Qur’an/Islam has no son and does not beget, has no form and hence is not incarnate, has no ‘partners’ as Muslims misunderstand the Holy Trinity to be. This god is essentially a monad, existing completely outside of its creation and predestining absolutely what its slaves do. Looked at from this angle, the Allah of Islam has more in common with a child playing with army men than the pantocrator of Christianity. There’s no real reason to consider them to be even relatable to one another, let alone the same. But I suppose when everything is abstract concepts and adjectives, then anything can be anything. What an odd kind of Christianity or religion in general that is. 🤷
 
The problem with PRmerger’s idea is that it would seem to make God into a sort of flickering light or shape-shifting, amorphous pseudo-being, which is of course not true of the Christian God (that is to say, the true God) at all.
It no more makes God " into a sort of flickering light or shape-shifting, amorphous pseudo-being," than the Coptic Orthodox belief that there are 3 legitimate liturgies makes God “into a sort of flickering light or shape-shifting, amorphous pseudo-being”.

It is a nonsequitur.
 
It no more makes God " into a sort of flickering light or shape-shifting, amorphous pseudo-being," than the Coptic Orthodox belief that there are 3 legitimate liturgies makes God “into a sort of flickering light or shape-shifting, amorphous pseudo-being”.

It is a nonsequitur.
What is this ridiculous nonsense? Where did you get this idea of a “Coptic belief that there are 3 legitimate liturgies”, and why does this idea say anything about the identity of God, in your estimation? Non-sequitur, indeed…
 
I have to agree with my Melkite and Coptic brothers on this one. We can appreciate the sincerity of the individual Muslims who worship according to their conscience, without suggesting that their system (or any other system) is worth anything.

Also, I find it interesting that it is always the areas which have the least contact with Islam (or Hinduism, or Judaism, or Bahai, etc), or such a superficial contact such systems; that tend to promote these “common core” ideas. Those who are “in the trenches” know better from experience, study, their struggles and their blood.
 
Not only do Muslims explicitly deny the Trinity and the divinity of Christ, but what of those attributes that they affirm that we would not, if you’re going to make it all about attributes?
And yet, curiously, you are unwilling to apply this same logic to Presbyterians.

You (rightly so!) will not profess, “Presbyterians worship a different Christ”, even though they explicitly deny the teaching on the Real Presence of Christ.

Why the inconsistency?
 
What is this ridiculous nonsense? Where did you get this idea of a “Coptic belief that there are 3 legitimate liturgies”, and why does this idea say anything about the identity of God, in your estimation? Non-sequitur, indeed…
Is this not a correct explication of your church?

There are three main Liturgies in the Coptic Church: The Liturgy according to Saint Basil, Bishop of Caesarea; The Liturgy according to Saint Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop of Constantinople; and The Liturgy according to Saint Cyril I, the 24th Pope of the Coptic Church. The bulk of Saint Cyril’s Liturgy is from the one that Saint Mark used (in Greek) in the first century. It was memorized by the Bishops and priests of the church till it was translated into the Coptic Language by Saint Cyril. Today, these three Liturgies, with some added sections (e.g. the intercessions), are still in use; the Liturgy of Saint Basil is the one most commonly used in the Coptic Orthodox Church. source: coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/
 
Think about it: The god of the Qur’an/Islam has no son and does not beget, has no form and hence is not incarnate, has no ‘partners’ as Muslims misunderstand the Holy Trinity to be. This god is essentially a monad, existing completely outside of its creation and predestining absolutely what its slaves do. Looked at from this angle, the Allah of Islam has more in common with a child playing with army men than the pantocrator of Christianity. There’s no real reason to consider them to be even relatable to one another, let alone the same. But I suppose when everything is abstract concepts and adjectives, then anything can be anything. What an odd kind of Christianity or religion in general that is. 🤷
The Jesus of the Presbyterians is not present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in our world today.

Are you willing, then, to apply the very same logic you are using above, to say, “I proclaim that Presbyterians worship a different Christ”?
 
And yet, curiously, you are unwilling to apply this same logic to Presbyterians.

You (rightly so!) will not profess, “Presbyterians worship a different Christ”, even though they explicitly deny the teaching on the Real Presence of Christ.

Why the inconsistency?
Why are you trying to shoehorn Presbyterians into anything? I’ve already explained why I find this to be improper. Again, the standard of what makes someone Orthodox is different than the standard of what makes someone (generically) Christian, as there are non-Orthodox Christians out there (see: this board). What does this have to do with Muslims, who are no kind of Christians?

It’s not inconsistency just because I won’t engage your irrelevant line of questioning.
 
Why are you trying to shoehorn Presbyterians into anything? I’ve already explained why I find this to be improper. Again, the standard of what makes someone Orthodox is different than the standard of what makes someone (generically) Christian, as there are non-Orthodox Christians out there (see: this board). What does this have to do with Muslims, who are no kind of Christians?

It’s not inconsistency just because I won’t engage your irrelevant line of questioning.
If you are unwilling to say that when Christian Denomination A denies [insert Orthodox teaching B here], they are worshipping a different Christ…

then…

you ought to be unwilling to say that when Monotheistic Religion C denies [insert Orthodox teaching D here], they are worshipping a different God.

Consistency is the name of the game here, dzheremi.
 
Is this not a correct explication of your church?

There are three main Liturgies in the Coptic Church: The Liturgy according to Saint Basil, Bishop of Caesarea; The Liturgy according to Saint Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop of Constantinople; and The Liturgy according to Saint Cyril I, the 24th Pope of the Coptic Church. The bulk of Saint Cyril’s Liturgy is from the one that Saint Mark used (in Greek) in the first century. It was memorized by the Bishops and priests of the church till it was translated into the Coptic Language by Saint Cyril. Today, these three Liturgies, with some added sections (e.g. the intercessions), are still in use; the Liturgy of Saint Basil is the one most commonly used in the Coptic Orthodox Church. source: coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/
Again, what does this have to do with your idea that there are “three legitimate liturgies”, and what would that idea have to do with the identity of God? That explanation is correct regarding the liturgical life of our church today, but you’ll notice how the idea of “legitimacy” doesn’t come up there. In truth, there used to be more than there are now (even in recent time; see: Al-Qiddas al-Habashi), and the Ethiopians received many of their 14 anaphoras from Egypt (I don’t remember how many, but there is a book on it by Fr. Marcus Daoud if you’re actually interested), indicating that this was even more so the case in previous centuries.

Nope…this is totally irrelevant…I’m pretty dang sure that the Liturgy of St. James, for instance, which is used by both the Syriac Orthodox and the British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate, is just as “legitimate” as the liturgies of Sts. Basil, Cyril, and Gregory. But have fun throwing everything against the wall. Maybe something will eventually stick. 🤷
 
Again, what does this have to do with your idea that there are “three legitimate liturgies”, and what would that idea have to do with the identity of God? That explanation is correct regarding the liturgical life of our church today, but you’ll notice how the idea of “legitimacy” doesn’t come up there.
Ah. I see, then.

So my example was not “ridiculous nonsense”, as my idea of there being 3 legitimate liturgies is, indeed, a Coptic belief.

That you were unaware of that is not my ignorance, but rather yours.
What is this ridiculous nonsense? Where did you get this idea of a “Coptic belief that there are 3 legitimate liturgies”,
 
If you are unwilling to say that when Christian Denomination A denies [insert Orthodox teaching B here], they are worshipping a different Christ…

then…

you ought to be unwilling to say that when Monotheistic Religion C denies [insert Orthodox teaching D here], they are worshipping a different God.

Consistency is the name of the game here, dzheremi.
I don’t treat Christians and non-Christians the same. Neither did the Fathers. That is consistency. (The only kind of consistency that matters.)

But it is possible to say that they would be worshiping a different God, sure. Heck, Apotheoun has said it, unless I’m misunderstanding him. I don’t agree, because again the distinction that I have been taught to make as an actual Orthodox Christian is between Orthodoxy and everything else, not this sort of mechanical “believe in doctrine X or you’re not Christian” (in your terminology, “the real presence”). To be sure, the Presbyterians are heretics for denying that the Eucharistic sacrifice is truly the body and blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but by the same token the Roman Catholics are heretics for all the things that you guys believe in that place you outside of Orthodoxy. That’s what heresy is: Some chosen doctrine that places a church or person outside of the Orthodox faith. As to whether or not that makes someone a non-Christian, it appears that there is plenty of room for different opinions on that (just ask H.E. Metroplitan Bishoy one day and my own Fr. Marcus the next and you’ll see; and that’s only within one particular Church in our communion), but again following the standard that I have been taught to embrace, I would say that the Presbyterians are Christians, but deeply heterodox. Again, what this has to do with Muslims, who are no kind of Christians according to anyone’s metric, escapes me. You think you’re making a logical argument, but it’s really silly to see you trying to pull together all of these disparate religions and beliefs all in an effort to make me wrong on the internet when you already believe that I am. Go ahead and continue to believe so, but quit harping on a question I’ve already answered now three times.
 
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