Is God the same as Allah?

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PRmerger said:
Ah. I see, then.

So my example was not “ridiculous nonsense”, as my idea of there being 3 legitimate liturgies is, indeed, a Coptic belief.

That you were unaware of that is not my ignorance, but rather yours.
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Holy moly…I’m losing my patience with this inanity…

You said that it was Coptic belief that there are three “legitimate” liturgies. Then you posted from a Coptic website that we use three liturgies. Then I responded that yes, we do use three liturgies, but that doesn’t mean that only three liturgies are “legitimate”. That just means that we use three liturgies (and that hasn’t even always been the case, not even in the modern day). Plenty of other Orthodox churches use other liturgies (even churches within the Coptic Patriarchate in Europe, e.g., the British Orthodox Church) and they are entirely legitimate.

Furthermore, again, I have no idea what this is supposed to say about the identity of God, which is the actual topic of discussion in this thread. Please address that before bringing up more irrelevant non-points and your own misunderstanding of the Coptic Orthodox Church. Thank you.

(An aside: I agree with Apotheoun that you need to work on your reading comprehension. It is bad enough that you are bringing in all this irrelevant material to make more dubious arguments, but to do so with other churches’ documents, as though they say what you want them to say just because you read things in terms of “legitimacy” even when that idea or word is not present in the text, is really beyond what anyone in their right mind would call a…ahem…legitimate way of making a point or expressing disagreement.)
 
dzheremi said:
I don’t agree, because again the distinction that I have been taught to make as an actual Orthodox Christian is between Orthodoxy and everything else, not this sort of mechanical “believe in doctrine X or you’re not Christian” (in your terminology, “the real presence”).
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Just to make this crystal clear: I never, ever, proclaim that unless someone believes in the Real Presence he is not a Christian.
but again following the standard that I have been taught to embrace, I would say that the Presbyterians are Christians, but deeply heterodox.
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And to be consistent, you would have to say that Muslims are Monotheists, but deeply heterodox.

QED.
 
I don’t think anyone denied that Muslims are monotheist - that is, their belief is that there is one god. This doesn’t mean anything in relation to other religions which are monotheist or polytheist. Much of Hinduism is also monotheist, what of it?
 
dzheremi said:
Holy moly…I’m losing my patience with this inanity…

You said that it was Coptic belief that there are three “legitimate” liturgies. Then you posted from a Coptic website that we use three liturgies. Then I responded that yes, we do use three liturgies, but that doesn’t mean that only three liturgies are “legitimate”. That just means that we use three liturgies (and that hasn’t even always been the case, not even in the modern day). Plenty of other Orthodox churches use other liturgies (even churches within the Coptic Patriarchate in Europe, e.g., the British Orthodox Church) and they are entirely legitimate.
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sigh

Again, I will have to post something about YOUR OWN CHURCH.

This is a teaching from YOUR church.

There are three main Liturgies in the Coptic Church: The Liturgy according to Saint Basil, Bishop of Caesarea; The Liturgy according to Saint Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop of Constantinople; and The Liturgy according to Saint Cyril I, the 24th Pope of the Coptic Church. The bulk of Saint Cyril’s Liturgy is from the one that Saint Mark used (in Greek) in the first century. It was memorized by the Bishops and priests of the church till it was translated into the Coptic Language by Saint Cyril. Today, these three Liturgies, with some added sections (e.g. the intercessions), are still in use; the Liturgy of Saint Basil is the one most commonly used in the Coptic Orthodox Church. source: coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/

I was correct in asserting this.

That you called it “ridiculous nonsense” is peculiar, indeed.

But I am simply proclaiming that which your own church professes.
 
SyroMalankara said:
I don’t think anyone denied that Muslims are monotheist -
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I would like to see dzheremi and Apotheoun proclaim that Muslims are monotheist.

That would be, at least, a step in the right direction.
Much of Hinduism is also monotheist, what of it?
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Really? I had no idea.

Can you offer a source for this?
 
What’s the difference? The topic of this thread is not whether Muslims believe themselves to be monotheist, it’s what this self-identification means to Christians - specifically Apostolic Christians - and if this means we accept their self-identification in relation to the True Faith.
 
SyroMalankara said:
What’s the difference?
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It would make clear, what is currently obfuscatory to me.

Do dzheremi and Apotheoun profess that Islam is a monotheistic religion?

You seem to be suggesting they do.

I am not so sure.

I would like to see if they are able to say, “Muslims are monotheists.”
The topic of this thread is not whether Muslims believe themselves to be monotheist,
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Right.

I want to know if dzheremi can profess that Muslims are monotheists.
 
PRmerger said:
It would make clear, what is currently obfuscatory to me.

Do dzheremi and Apotheoun profess that Islam is a monotheistic religion?

You seem to be suggesting they do.

I am not so sure.

I would like to see if they are able to say, “Muslims are monotheists.”

Right.

I want to know if dzheremi can profess that Muslims are monotheists.
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You should start a new thread in “Non-Catholic Religions” with a title reflecting this, if Dzheremi or Apotheoun feel like responding, they can do so there.

As to my opinion - it depends on the Muslim. Even Muslims can’t agree internally whether their co-religionists outside their school or accepted variants are monotheist. For example, many “hardline Sunnis” accuse Shia and Sufis of being polytheists. Both accuse Duruze and Syrian-Alawi of polytheism; many non-Ismaelis call them polytheists.
 
SyroMalankara said:
You should start a new thread in “Non-Catholic Religions” with a title reflecting this, if Dzheremi or Apotheoun feel like responding, they can do so there.
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So are you retracting this post you made below?
SyroMalankara said:
I don’t think anyone denied that Muslims are monotheist - that is, their belief is that there is one god.
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I am contesting your assertion that you made on this thread.

If you want me to start a new thread, then I suggest you retract your assertion that no one has “denied that Muslims are monotheists.”

As you have asserted this, in this thread, I do think it is proper to address it. 🤷
 
PRmerger said:
sigh

Again, I will have to post something about YOUR OWN CHURCH.

This is a teaching from YOUR church.

There are three main Liturgies in the Coptic Church: The Liturgy according to Saint Basil, Bishop of Caesarea; The Liturgy according to Saint Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop of Constantinople; and The Liturgy according to Saint Cyril I, the 24th Pope of the Coptic Church. The bulk of Saint Cyril’s Liturgy is from the one that Saint Mark used (in Greek) in the first century. It was memorized by the Bishops and priests of the church till it was translated into the Coptic Language by Saint Cyril. Today, these three Liturgies, with some added sections (e.g. the intercessions), are still in use; the Liturgy of Saint Basil is the one most commonly used in the Coptic Orthodox Church. source: coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/

I was correct in asserting this.

That you called it “ridiculous nonsense” is peculiar, indeed.

But I am simply proclaiming that which your own church professes.
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God help me, it’s just unbelievable that someone can be this dense. Peace be with you, PRmerger. I just don’t have the energy to put up with this kind of ignorance. It is apparent that you are having extreme difficulties reading and understanding my replies, and i really don’t know any other way to put it. Yes, we use those three liturgies in the Coptic Orthodox Church, but no, that does not mean that only those three liturgies are “legitimate”, and since you have yet to explain what if anything this fact has to do with the identity of God (the topic of this thread), I can only guess that you either don’t have a point, or whatever point you think you’re making is apparently that you have read a paragraph from a Coptic website and have latched on to the fact that we use three liturgies (in which case, I guess you can read, so perhaps your selective understanding of my replies is intentional). It is telling in the context of this thread that you cannot even understand basic distinctions between what you think a text or poster is saying and what it/he/she is actually saying. No matter, though. We are done interacting. Goodbye.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Just google it, pretty common knowledge. “Much” refers to schools of theology not popularity:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_views_on_monotheism
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This is what your source says (bold mine):
However, certain elements of henotheism, monotheism, panentheism, pantheism, monism, and sometimes atheism or non-theism (see advaita) are found in a minority of Hindu denominations.
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I don’t understand your caveat that “much” refers to schools of theology. It would appear that it is not “much” or “many” but your source says “a minority”.

And then your source offers no explanation whatsoever.
 
Apotheoun said:
Not at all; instead, I am simply saying what Roman Catholics used to say 50 years ago.
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One ought not confuse what “Roman Catholics used to say 50 years ago” with what Roman Catholicism taught.

They are not necessarily the same.

Point that must be understood by all: no Catholic is permitted to tear out any sections of the Catechism that does not appeal to his tastes.

There is no going around the fact that the CC teaches that Muslims are worshipping the same God we do, although with a greatly impoverished theology.

It is what she teaches today. It is what she taught 50 years ago.

Just as the CC teaches that Presbyterians worship the same Christ as we do, although with a greatly impoverished Christology.
 
SyroMalankara said:
Much of Hinduism is also monotheist, what of it?
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I’m assuming you mean that Hindus practice devotion to one particular god out of their pantheon?

I’d argue that that’s not actually monotheism the way the First Commandment defines it, and a more acurate term might be monotheistic polytheism (wherein you believe in multiple gods but choose to focus on just one).
 
WonderAndAwe said:
I’m assuming you mean that Hindus practice devotion to one particular god out of their pantheon?

I’d argue that that’s not actually monotheism the way the First Commandment defines it, and a more acurate term might be monotheistic polytheism (wherein you believe in multiple gods but choose to focus on just one).
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No, I mean the popular Hinduism (Shivaism) is polytheistic, but many of the the other schools, although much smaller in adherents are monotheistic.
 
Yes, just worshiped in a different way and possible misrepresented and misunderstood. God is God, there is not other or substitute. Their belief is in the MAKER, same as us.
 
CathyMary said:
Yes, just worshiped in a different way and possible misrepresented and misunderstood. God is God, there is not other or substitute. Their belief is in the MAKER, same as us.
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Right, and imperfect worship is indeed a reality. Look at Isis.
 
I know right, and so on through the Church. In my mind its the seven deadly sins. I don’t know where anyone, or for that matter any group may be on that path. Isis is about extreme as possible. The Kurdish seem to be a better comparison to the CCC.
 
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