Is God the same as Allah?

[Apotheoun]

I wasn’t proposing that they had the true faith, only whether you believed if they worshipped the same Christ you did.

Obviously, you think they are worshipping a false deity, so, 'nuff said on that.

I am simply astonished to hear an otherwise rational member of this forum say this, and will say this is the first time I have ever heard a single Orthodox person say that Presbyterians are not worshipping Christ…but, there you go.

By definition those with a false or defective faith cannot give “right glory” (ορθο δόξα) to God. Heretics cannot worship God as He commands because they have a heterodox faith.

 

[Apotheoun]

For Eastern Christians worship and faith are intimately bound together. In fact, so much so that they really are the same thing. One who has a heretical faith cannot give “right glory” to God because to be able to give that to God one must be Orthodox (ορθο δόξα). This is probably hard for Western Christians to understand because the liturgy is not seen as the embodiment of the faith anymore; instead, the liturgy is a matter of legal enactments from the hierarchy, which the laity are simply supposed to accept.

 

[Apotheoun]

PRmerger,

Perhaps in the flurry of posts you missed my question to you, so I am re-posting it:

Now that I answered your question, perhaps you can answer mine, and your answer should be based on the Muslim texts I quoted in my earlier posts (#147 and #149):

Do you really believe that the “god” of Muhammad, a “god” who is the real cause of all sins (e.g., murder, adultery, theft, etc.), and the true God revealed by our Lord Jesus Christ are really one and the same?

 

[Apotheoun]

I wasn’t proposing that they had the true faith, only whether you believed if they worshipped the same Christ you did.

Obviously, you think they are worshipping a false deity, so, 'nuff said on that.

I am simply astonished to hear an otherwise rational member of this forum say this, and will say this is the first time I have ever heard a single Orthodox person say that Presbyterians are not worshipping Christ…but, there you go.

You do not have very good reading skills. I have only said that Presbyterians do not worship Christ, because they have not maintained the liturgical tradition that has been handed down since the time of the Apostles, who delivered what they themselves had received from Christ the Lord at the Last Supper. The communities that arose out of the Reformation have no worship at all, for as the Church Fathers taught: Christ alone offered true worship to God the Father and He imparted that true worship to His Church to perpetuate until His parousia.

Evidently you accept the notion that there are other forms of worship, while I do not. Now I am sorry if that shocks or offends you, but I cannot subscribe to theological or religious indifferentism just to make you happy.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Imperfect worship, there are liberal and conservative views of imperfect worship?

 

[Apotheoun]

Imperfect worship, there are liberal and conservative views of imperfect worship?

I do not believe in “imperfect worship.” I believe in Christ and His sole offering, the anamnesis of which is made present in the Church’s liturgy.

P.S. - The political terms “liberal” and “conservative” really have no place in the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

You do not have very good reading skills. I have only said that Presbyterians do not worship Christ, because they have not maintained the liturgical tradition that has been handed down since the time of the Apostles, who delivered what they themselves had received from Christ the Lord at the Last Supper. The communities that arose out of the Reformation have no worship at all, for as the Church Fathers taught: Christ alone offered true worship to God the Father and He imparted that true worship to His Church to perpetuate until His parousia.

Evidently you accept the notion that there are other forms of worship, while I do not. Now I am sorry if that shocks or offends you, but I cannot subscribe to theological or religious indifferentism just to make you happy.

You are being obfuscatory.

Do Presbyterians worship the same Christ as you do?

Yes? Or no?

 

[PRmerger]

You do not have very good reading skills.

Be careful, Apotheoun. This is getting perilously close to being uncharitable, something that is reportable to the mods.

 

[PRmerger]

Do you really believe that the “god” of Muhammad, a “god” who is the real cause of all sins (e.g., murder, adultery, theft, etc.), and the true God revealed by our Lord Jesus Christ are really one and the same?

Yes. I am Catholic so I conform my views to Christ and His Body, the CC. I do not reserve for myself the right to be my own pope and tear out pages of the Catechism that do not suit my sensibilities.

Originally posted by Our Catholic Church: The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

Where Muslims profess God as the Creator, the Fashioner, the Life-Giver, the Provider, the Opener, the Bestower, the Prevailer, the Reckoner, the Recorder, the King of Kingship and the Lord of the Worlds…they worship with us Catholics who also profess God asthe Creator, the Fashioner, the Life-Giver, the Provider, the Opener, the Bestower, the Prevailer, the Reckoner, the Recorder, the King of Kingship and the Lord of the Worlds

What’s to disagree with on these points?

Allah is also transcendent and not a part of his creation.

They got that right, too.

Now, the inevitable response will be, "And Muslims also proclaim this "

Yep. Muslims surely have lots of wrong beliefs.

Yet in proclaiming the above statements about God they have submitted to the Truth and for that we celebrate!

 

[thinkandmull]

Apotheoun is preaching total and complete garbage. You can have false ideas but a right heart. This is beyond obvious. And Paul in Acts 17 said the pagans with idols still worshipped God through the unknown shrine. He stands refuted

 

[PRmerger]

Apotheoun is preaching total and complete garbage. You can have false ideas but a right heart. This is beyond obvious. And Paul in Acts 17 said the pagans with idols still worshipped God through the unknown shrine. He stands refuted

Indeed.

They worship God through their imperfect union with the Word, the Eternal Logos. Their logos/logic, reason, propels them towards the Godhead.

If Moses could be considered worshipping God even though he did so without Christ, but only through his imperfect union with the Eternal Logos, so, too, can Muslims be considered worshipping God even though they do so without Christ, through their imperfect union with the Eternal Logos.

 

[dzheremi]

Apotheoun is preaching total and complete garbage. You can have false ideas but a right heart. This is beyond obvious. And Paul in Acts 17 said the pagans with idols still worshipped God through the unknown shrine. He stands refuted

Saint Paul, you say? Hmmm…I wonder what he had to say about the pagans (gentiles, in his day, as Christianity would not be identified as something separate until later), if he indeed thought that the pagans worshiped God…

1 Corinthians 10:20 (NKJV)
Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

Hmmm…perhaps a Bible quote fight is not the best way to go about this, huh…

 

[PRmerger]

Saint Paul, you say? Hmmm…I wonder what he had to say about the pagans (gentiles, in his day, as Christianity would not be identified as something separate until later), if he indeed thought that the pagans worshiped God…

1 Corinthians 10:20 (NKJV)
Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

Hmmm…perhaps a Bible quote fight is not the best way to go about this, huh…

No one is saying that pagans don’t have the capacity to fellowship with demons, dzheremi.

But you cannot deny that St. Paul proclaimed that pagans could indeed be worshipping the same God we do, although imperfectly.

Similarly, insert the word Muslim for pagan in the above and you have the CC’s teaching, borne from St. Paul’s theme.

 

[thinkandmull]

Saint Paul, you say? Hmmm…I wonder what he had to say about the pagans (gentiles, in his day, as Christianity would not be identified as something separate until later), if he indeed thought that the pagans worshiped God…

1 Corinthians 10:20 (NKJV)
Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

Hmmm…perhaps a Bible quote fight is not the best way to go about this, huh…

The Bible is truth, no? Not all Gentiles are included in that. Demon worship was widespread. Your apparent belief that one can be an unintended demon worshipper doesn’t make any sense at all! If you don’t intend it, then the heart is in the right direction…

 

[dzheremi]

If you don’t intend it, then the heart is in the right direction…

Again, the scriptures caution otherwise:

Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?”

But, you know, if you want to believe in all of this stuff about how intention is the primary judge of who or what people are worshiping, that’s fine. I don’t agree and never will, but it doesn’t much matter since I can’t do anything about other people’s worship of false gods anyway. It is much more important in Orthodoxy to stick to and proclaim the truth as it has been entrusted to you, so that’s all I’ve been trying to do in any of my posts. We do not worry about the worship of others since we are not to participate in it anyway. So it is enough that I know Who I am worshiping. That Muslims and all other Christ-deniers are not worshiping Who I am worshiping is self-evident, but perhaps Catholics have some other standard. Fair enough. The CCC means nothing to me in the first place, as I suspect any Orthodox person’s view ultimately means nothing to you in comparison to the CCC. So there’s really no point to continuing this conversation.

 

[thinkandmull]

THe heart can be both good and evil. And Acts 17 refuted your position. It is obvious that God accepts prayers of those who have good intentions, beyond obvious. Your twisted thinking is insulting

 

[dzheremi]

As you see it. I apologize for having insulted you, but my position remains unchanged, as Orthodox Christianity demands fidelity to Christ not at the expense of others, but regardless of whatever other system of belief might be out there or how anyone feels about it.

 

[thinkandmull]

ok.

 

[Apotheoun]

You are being obfuscatory.

Do Presbyterians worship the same Christ as you do?

Yes? Or no?

Not at all; instead, I am simply saying what Roman Catholics used to say 50 years ago. There is an excellent book by a Catholic author called “The Eucharistic Sacrifice and the Reformation” that deals with the issue of worship, and how Protestants have no worship because they have overthrown the only true act of worship, i.e., the sacrifice of Christ rendered present in the Eucharistic liturgy. You might want to check it out.

Presbyterians do not worship Christ at all, because they have done away with worship (i.e., with the apostolic liturgy).

 

[Apotheoun]

Yes. I am Catholic so I conform my views to Christ and His Body, the CC. I do not reserve for myself the right to be my own pope and tear out pages of the Catechism that do not suit my sensibilities.

You have free will and can use it as you deem best. I also have free will and I will remain steadfast in holding to the teaching of sacred scripture and apostolic tradition.

Where Muslims profess God as the Creator, the Fashioner, the Life-Giver, the Provider, the Opener, the Bestower, the Prevailer, the Reckoner, the Recorder, the King of Kingship and the Lord of the Worlds…they worship with us Catholics who also profess God asthe Creator, the Fashioner, the Life-Giver, the Provider, the Opener, the Bestower, the Prevailer, the Reckoner, the Recorder, the King of Kingship and the Lord of the Worlds

What’s to disagree with on these points?

Interesting points but once again a simple reduction of God to abstract concepts. Did Muhammad believe in Christ the sole savior of mankind? Did he accept the dogmas of the incarnation and the trinity? Nope, and so he did not worship - nor did he know - the true God.

But you are free to worship the god of Muhammad, the creator of evil and sin, if that is what you wish to do. I refuse to worship the false god of Muhammad.

Allah is also transcendent and not a part of his creation.

They got that right, too.

Nope, Muhammad got that wrong, because Allah is so transcendent that he did not - actually he could not - become incarnate. Muhammad explicitly denied the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the incarnation. That is something I can never agree to, which is why I refuse to worship the false god of Muhammad.

Now, the inevitable response will be, "And Muslims also proclaim this "

Yep. Muslims surely have lots of wrong beliefs.

Yep, Muhammad is wrong and he was no prophet. Perhaps he is a prophet to you, but he is not one to me. I believe he was delusional at best, and an intentional deceiver at worst.

I noticed that you did not reference at all the creed of Hanbali. It seems like you only want to talk in generalities that have no connection at all to actual Muslim doctrines. At least I have actually read Islamic texts and studied the writings of the founders of the different school of Islamic jurisprudence.