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seeker777
Guest
It’s fascinating to me, that people actually believe these things, even though much of it, runs contrary to reason and common sense.
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BSHoop96
Guest
And it is fascinating to me how one who does not believe, and therefore places no importance on God, will come on a Catholic site and try to argue, for what apparent reason I do not know. Totally different than two believers debating the differences in their beliefs and/or interpretations.
We will never logically, according to you, answer your questions because you are a non-believer. Some things concerning God must be taken thru faith…it’s what we call “a mystery”. Obviously, you do not get that.
You think you are reasonable, but really, you’re not. Because some people will not gain the kingdom of heaven, due to their own sin, when they have been offered every opportunity, and can be forgiven for anything, is according to you, not the act of a loving God. How typical of the world today that one would think no one is responsible for his/her own actions. God has offered you, and everyone, the way to salvation. It is up to you to take Him up on the offer. Now that is reasonable.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Ok lets start by frist is is just the opposite it is unconditional.
Wrong again. He never required perfection he asked for devotion, and that we come to him in full knowledge of our short coming asking humbly for forgiveness and with a desire to truly strive to avoid them in the future.
Just as a truly loving human parent will but their child out of the house for total disrespect and disobedience. The Human parent is more to willing to except the child back home if the child comes with as heart of repentance and strive to live with in the home under the rules and expectation set forth. it does not mean that the parents ever did not love the child, it means that their are rules that must be observed. the same is with God and you have our whole life to come back and truly ask for him to welcome you back home. the biggest problem is the longer you live in sin the harder it is to truly turn away.
. Again Wrong. the love is not dependant on anything. but the forgiveness is.
And one more time Wrong.
Not that I can speak for God, but i would say the sentence would be more like " I love you, and wish you would have loved me back, but instead you have chosen Hell separated from me for all eternity."
It kinda like lets make a deal the game show back in to 70’s
people had were given 3 doors to choose and they got whatever was behind them, but in this case we have just 2 doors and we know in advance what is behind each door. We just have to make the choice.
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seagal
Guest
Well said. When you put it like that, it’s baffling why anyone would choose Door #2
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seeker777
Guest
You make an awful lot of assumptions about me and the road of ’ faith ’ that I have taken and am presently on.
Most of the assumptions you made are incorrect.
Clearly my presence is not only unwelcome, but it causes your insecurities to rise to the surface.
Perhaps I should also seek the company of like minded individuals?
Different ideas need not be so frightening.
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seeker777
Guest
You forgot to add;
“I, being God, am content to know that you will agonize for infinity, for the horrible crime of not loving me! Love me, or suffer forever.”
Yeah, that’s a reasonable demand.
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seeker777
Guest
There’s no proof anything is behind either door. That’s why some people choose neither and walk the other way.Well said. When you put it like that, it’s baffling why anyone would choose Door #2
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
But God is not content to just let you suffer for eternity that is why he has given you a life time to atone for those the "crime " as you say.You forgot to add;
“I, being God, am content to know that you will agonize for infinity, for the horrible crime of not loving me! Love me, or suffer forever.”
Yeah, that’s a reasonable demand.
Is it any more unreasonable for a parent to let there child sleep on the streets or were ever they may find for not obeying them?
You are trying to remove mans responsibility in the outcome of where they spend eternity.
As God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, the first and the last. Why is it unreasonable for him to say if you do not acknowledge me and live As I decreed then you will be separated from me forever in hell. I mean lets face it with out Gods say so we would not be here to start with.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
And then I ask why would that person reasonably be able to enter into heaven when they walked away. Not making a choice is a choice even if it is by default.
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seeker777
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Why? That’s a dictatorship.
Your last point is interesting. If we didn’t exist, then we wouldn’t know, so it wouldn’t matter now would it? But we do exist, and according to Christian belief, every human runs the risk of suffering eternal damnation for eternity.
If that is a possibility, then perhaps it would be better to not exist in the first place. Not existing, seems a lot better than running the risk of eternal torment for infinity.
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BSHoop96
Guest
If one acts like a duck, talks like a duck and presents oneself by the way they come across as a duck, then one should not be offended when one assumes they are a duck. I find this disingenuous.
Oh please…that is so insincere…not to mention inaccurate. Why would we be frightened? Do you think we haven’t seen or heard this before? Although the part about seeking like-minded individuals might not be a bad idea at this point.
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seagal
Guest
What, did you think God was running democracy? This is a parent/child relationship, or a creator/creature relationship. Like it or not, we are not in charge here.
But the choice is entirely ours. We choose God or we don’t, it’s just that simple.
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seeker777
Guest
If this is all real and God really is omniscient, then free will is an illusion.
You see, God, being omniscient, knows all and see’s all.
God has the foreknowledge of how each person will live there life, not in this life, but in every conceivable life that he could create for that person.
God creates life, and has the foreknowledge regarding every single decision that the person will make. remember, God is omnisicient, therefor he not only knows what your going to eat for breakfast tomorrow, but he knows what your going to eat for breakfast 20 years from now.
So, God chooses for a person to be born, knowing what every decision that person will ever make.
God also knows, that if he caused that person to be born in India, instead of in America, the sequence of events within that persons life would be very different. The decisions that the person makes would also be different. God doesn’t just know that everything would be different, but God, being omniscient, has the ability to see what every decision that the person would make if that person were to live a different life.
God chooses where the life will be born, God knows what decisions that person will make.
God has the foreknowledge to know that the person will make choices that will have them end up in hell. Yet God still creates that life, knowing that they are pre-destined for hell.
God could use his omniscience to choose a circumstance and life for a person to live, where they will make choices that will have them end up in heaven.
Because God chooses where people are born, knows what decisions they will make and knows how that person would live in alternate lives…there is no such thing as free will.
The reality that God knows the choices we not only make in this life, but in all alternate universes ( or realities) negates that there is any such thing as free will.
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seagal
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The concept of free will has been debated by much greater minds than mine. oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Free_Will
Of course all of that presupposes there is a God. Since you don’t seem to believe in God at all, what’s your problem? Go live your life secure in your certainty that there is no God and that you have nothing to fear from eternity. I wish you well.
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seeker777
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Thank you.
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BRB
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Right. You’re just a robot. You don’t have a brain. You can’t comprehend anything greater than yourself. You have made yourself King … and don’t have to answer to anyone.
Furthermore, no one created you … you are just a figment of our imagination.
Don’t you see the fallacy of your arguements ?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
**So what is love, if it is not that ? ****What is the Crucifixion, if it not the supreme proof of God’s Love for sinners ? Where is any condition attached to the Death of Christ, so that He died only for the righteous ? St. Paul is unambiguous: Christ died for the unrighteous, for those who were “dead in sins and trespasses”. That is a weird description of righteousness, but an excellent description of the total inability of sinners to save themselves - for they were not even “alive to God”. ****Christ died for sinners. He did not wait for His enemies to be righteous, or to repent, but prayed for them while they crucified Him. Was that righteous of them ? **
How does a verse that shows us God’s love mean that His Love is conditional ?
**“Theos” does not mean that. Even if it did, the argument from etymology is frequently worthless: How many “lords” are still “loaf-wards” ? Not many, *if *any. Sea lions, despite their name, are not felines, do not have tails or manes, & have well-developed tusks. It does not follow that they are called by their name in error, or out of a desire to confuse. **Words gain meaning from how they are used - which is why the euaggelion, or “good news” of the birth of Augustus Caesar is not the same sort of euaggelion as the Good News of Christ. Identical word - different meaning.
Theos** here means “judge” because it translates the Hebrew word elohim usually translated “God/gods”:**- 4. one set in authority, judge, tokritêriontou th., enôpiontou th., [LXXEx. (Exodus, chapter 21, verse 6)21.6, 22.8; [theous (Greek Word Study Tool)oukakologêseis ib.[22.28(27) (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Aabo%3Atlg%2C0527%2C002%3A22%3A28(27)&vers=original&word=qeo%2Fs#word1).
- [perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2348292**** (Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, θεός)
- English: "Thou shalt not speak evil of the gods"
(The Biblical texts are linked to the Vulgate: Exodus 21.6 in the LXX is a different verse.)
more…
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Theos** here means “judge” because it translates the Hebrew word elohim** usually translated “God/gods”. That tells us nothing about either the etymology or the basic meaning of the Greek word. “Elohim” is being used in an extended sense - like “adore” in “That baby is just adorable”. Only a pedant would insist that because God alone is honoured with adoration, the word cannot be used in any other context than theology. Turkeys are not from Turkey, but that is no reason to rename them.
Confusion between the usage, form, & etymology of words is what allows careless writers to invent non-existent connections between Christianity & ancient religions: Easter “looks like” the name of the Assyrian goddess, Ishtar, therefore, Easter is a feast in her honour; which “proves” that Catholics worship Ishtar, therefore, are not Christian. This is a familiar argument, & it is worthless.
**If the theological conclusion were valid, God would love none of us. For no-one has kept the Law, & no-one can; because all are sinners, & all are under the just judgement of God as a result (as St. Paul explains in Romans). If it were otherwise, we would have no need of Jesus Christ. ****Worse (if possible), it follows that we can save ourselves without God’s grace. This is not Christian, but sheer undiluted ****naturalism. The difference is not between different Christian ideas, but between a Christian & a naturalistic one. **
**AFAICS, the ****only basis for a conditional love in God is the desire on our part to earn or deserve God’s Love - & that is not possible. God loves us, not because we deserve it, but because we very definitely do not. That is what makes God’s Love Good News, rather than bad. **
**If this seems amoral, morality is not the main thing; Christ brings not a moral code, but a Gospel: which is far better. Moral codes & Phariseeism can agree all too well - but there is no place for Phariseeism in the Gospel, because the Gospel upsets & relativises the certainties of this world. The Gospel, because it is wholly gracious, not based on a code, is deeply threatening to self-righteousness & self-made morality - that’s one reason it leads to the Cross. A way of life based on conditional love has no such power. **
**If God’s Love is conditional, Christianity is a delusion & a lie, & “we are still in our sins”. **
Confusion between the usage, form, & etymology of words is what allows careless writers to invent non-existent connections between Christianity & ancient religions: Easter “looks like” the name of the Assyrian goddess, Ishtar, therefore, Easter is a feast in her honour; which “proves” that Catholics worship Ishtar, therefore, are not Christian. This is a familiar argument, & it is worthless.
**If the theological conclusion were valid, God would love none of us. For no-one has kept the Law, & no-one can; because all are sinners, & all are under the just judgement of God as a result (as St. Paul explains in Romans). If it were otherwise, we would have no need of Jesus Christ. ****Worse (if possible), it follows that we can save ourselves without God’s grace. This is not Christian, but sheer undiluted ****naturalism. The difference is not between different Christian ideas, but between a Christian & a naturalistic one. **
**Because God’s Love is not conditional. It does not depend on anything in the recipient. It is not earned, but given freely. If it does not have a recipient, it creates one - God had no Chosen People, so He loved them, & so that People came into being. The initiative is always God’s. What creature advised Him to create in the beginning ? There were no creatures in the beginning - God was in the beginning; He had no adviser but His own Wisdom. **
**Grace works in the same way: it creates graciousness in those who are not gracious, who care nothing for it. They do not ask first - if they ask, it is because God has worked in them to move them to do so. IOW, His grace is unconditional Divine Love. ****AFAICS, the ****only basis for a conditional love in God is the desire on our part to earn or deserve God’s Love - & that is not possible. God loves us, not because we deserve it, but because we very definitely do not. That is what makes God’s Love Good News, rather than bad. **
**If this seems amoral, morality is not the main thing; Christ brings not a moral code, but a Gospel: which is far better. Moral codes & Phariseeism can agree all too well - but there is no place for Phariseeism in the Gospel, because the Gospel upsets & relativises the certainties of this world. The Gospel, because it is wholly gracious, not based on a code, is deeply threatening to self-righteousness & self-made morality - that’s one reason it leads to the Cross. A way of life based on conditional love has no such power. **
**If God’s Love is conditional, Christianity is a delusion & a lie, & “we are still in our sins”. **
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fewnotmany
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G of G . . . .If I understand you correctly, believers don’t have to do anything to receive God’s love, because it is unconditional?
To apologize doing God’s commandments as nothing more than moral codes and Phariseeism is most novel. Tell me more.
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JohnJFarren
Guest
JMJ / MMM 081002 Thursday
Hello fewnotmany –
You posed a very serious question.
You asked, “Please answer the following question with a simple “yes” or “no” . . . Does God love every man, woman, child that ever live?”
Yes. Absolutely yes. And throughout Eternity that will never change.
Well, how about the fallen angels? Does God Love and will always Love Lucifer? Satan? YES. ABSOLUTELY YES. God’s Love is eternally given but it cannot be received by Satan because the evil thing (my name for Satan) HATES God beyond any possibility of repentance.
GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
Hello fewnotmany –
You posed a very serious question.
You asked, “Please answer the following question with a simple “yes” or “no” . . . Does God love every man, woman, child that ever live?”
Yes. Absolutely yes. And throughout Eternity that will never change.
Well, how about the fallen angels? Does God Love and will always Love Lucifer? Satan? YES. ABSOLUTELY YES. God’s Love is eternally given but it cannot be received by Satan because the evil thing (my name for Satan) HATES God beyond any possibility of repentance.
GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
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