Is God's Love unconditional?

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JohnJFarren said:
Hello fewnotmany –
You posed a very serious question.
You asked, "Please answer the following question with a simple “yes” or “no” . . . Does God love every man, woman, child that ever live?

Yes. Absolutely yes. And throughout Eternity that will never change."
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You’re entitled to your opinion. The face value of which I’m indifferent to comment. If you care to cite a biblical basis for your opinion, then we may have a point of contention.
 
seagal said:
fewtomany, what is your definition of love?
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reprinted from the Original Post:

I’m going to try to make an overly simplified algebraic equation and provide an example where God’s love in the Bible can be viewed as conditional:

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

The English word love in the original Greek text is Agape (ag-ah’-pay). It does not mean to have affection for.

Same word as in 2 John 6 “this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments”

God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.

Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

If God, as the word in is used in the original Greek text (Theos), means magistrate, then He only has affection (phileo) to those that obey His Laws.
 
An even more important (for lack of a better word) question: Is any love unconditional? There is no loving relationship that I’m aware of that doesn’t make demands. Demands are conditions. In marriage, your spouse demands fidelity (among other things). My love for my wife must be demonstrated in specific ways. Or it’s not love. My love for God must be demonstrated by keeping his commandments, as he said. (And it is his grace that enables me to do so.) If I want to be forgiven my trespasses against God, I must be willing to forgive those who trespass against me. All loving relationships are chock full of conditions.
 
JMJ / MMM 081004 Saturday
Hello fewnotmany –
I repeat my response to the basic question, Is God’s Love unconditional?

Yes. Absolutely yes. And throughout Eternity that will never change.

My response is not an opinion but a belief of faith, a teaching of the One Church that Jesus Christ founded. Scripture alone is insufficient. It is eseential to receive God’s full revelation to hold Tradition as equal to Scripture. The two, Scripture AND Tradition are two parts of a “living” thing.

Bless you, fewnotmany. I give God’s Love to you.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
 
JohnJFarren said:
My response is not an opinion but a belief of faith
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Are you aware that the term ‘belief of faith’ is redundant? Regardless, what you are saying ‘is my faith is beyond the scrutiny of critical analysis.’
Scripture AND Tradition are two parts of a “living” thing.
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Regretfully, your lack of a Scriptural citation fails to disprove my many Scriptural citations that Love is conditional.
 
A good place to start is with St Paul’s definition of love. He lays down all kinds of conditions for love to be authentic. What if love isn’t patient? What if love isn’t kind? What if love is envious? Then it’s not love. To say that love is unconditional is to say that love can be patient or not, kind or not, envious or not, etc. Conditions are inherent in its definition. So the phrase “unconditional love” is really an oxymoron.

1st Corinthians 13:4-7
4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely, is not puffed up, 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil: 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth: 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Thank you fewnotmany for bringing this up.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

**So what is love, if it is not that ? **What is the Crucifixion, if it not the supreme proof of God’s Love for sinners ? Where is any condition attached to the Death of Christ, so that He died only for the righteous ? St. Paul is unambiguous: Christ died for the unrighteous, for those who were “dead in sins and trespasses”.​

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Yes. And that in itself is a condition. He didn’t die for the moon. He didn’t die for mice. He died for the specific group you mentioned.
 
fewnotmany said:
G of G . . . .If I understand you correctly, believers don’t have to do anything to receive God’s love, because it is unconditional?
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Nor do unbelievers. God takes the initiative - there are no exceptions. We can respond to God’s Love, certainly; but only because we are given grace to do so. Our very capacity to receive grace is itself a grace. God is always “beforehand” in dealing with us.​

A literary metaphor may be some help. The characters in a book are within the book - to the extent that they are, they are within it, & cannot get outside it. The reader or writer is related to the book in a very different way - to write a book, being inside it without the capacity to get outside of it is no good. We are the characters, God is the Author. Just as a writer always “exceeds” his own book, even if he puts himself into it, God is always greater than, He always exceeds, any of His works. He is unlimited by His own creations, so He can always do for them more than they can imagine. Unlike human authors, God is Infinite, so - like any comparison drawn from created things - the metaphor points to, but falls far short of, the Reality 🙂
To apologize doing God’s commandments as nothing more than moral codes and Phariseeism is most novel. Tell me more.
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But - no one saying it is “nothing more than” “moral codes & Phariseeism”. The Pharisees went wrong by trusting in their own righteousness; they did not observe “the weightier matters of the Law” - at least, Jesus did not think so. Is that kind of self-righteousness really so unknown among Christians ? It’s an old temptation, & to deny the possibility of it is an excellent way to fall into it. Self-righteusness is anything but a Christian attitude; & it will destroy us if we are unwise enough to think “it cannot happen to us”.​

We cannot keep the commandments by our own “power” - because it is charity, nothing less, that is the fulfilling of the Law/law.

Phariseeism is a very natural trap for any man to fall into. It is not identical with what we are meant to do, but can look very like it; & going by a code, which of itself is not a living thing, is one of its supports. I don’t think this any different from what St. Paul says.
 
miguel said:
Yes. And that in itself is a condition. He didn’t die for the moon. He didn’t die for mice. He died for the specific group you mentioned.
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ISTM that “conditional” is being confused with “specific”.​

Of course God’s Love is specific - this goes with the truth of election. It does not for one moment imply that the elect can do anything to be worthy of, to deserve, election. They don’t: God is as likely to elect a rapist or a perjurer as anyone else - election is based on the purposes of God, not on any good in man. Grace does not find us righteous, but makes righteous those to whom it is given. There is not a crumb of comfort here for those who would find their way to God by their own righteousness. Repentance from evil is a grace, not a right - we have no rights before God anyway. What righteous work has a liar, murderer or thief done, to deserve God’s Love ? None at all; so that Love cannot be based on any work in man, who is a rebel against God, & does not deserve the least mercy, but only God’s Wrath & Judgement.

Without this unconditional electing & Sovereign Love, all the good works in the world are dross & excrement. There is nothing in any creature whatever that is not received as a gift - so unless we are our own Creators, Gods, Saviours & Redeemers, we are indebted to God for all that we have. So His Love is absolutely unconditional, & cannot be anything else.
 
Folks this is very simple Gods loves us with no conditions set. end of story. Now to be able to receive the benefits of that love there are conditions. People are confusing the Love with being able to receive it.
 
JMJ / MMM 081007 Tuesday
Hello Scott … oneGODoneCHURCH –

RIGHT ON! May God grant to all of us His graces that we may respond and receive All … ALL … step by step.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
 
JohnJFarren said:
JMJ / MMM 081007 Tuesday
Hello Scott … oneGODoneCHURCH –

RIGHT ON! May God grant to all of us His graces that we may respond and receive All … ALL … step by step.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
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Yes I know that for myself There have been times that I have put myself outside of Gods grace. It is only because of his love that I have been able to come back and work every day( sometimes is still fail) to remain in his grace.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

ISTM that “conditional” is being confused with “specific”.​

Of course God’s Love is specific - this goes with the truth of election. It does not for one moment imply that the elect can do anything to be worthy of, to deserve, election. They don’t: God is as likely to elect a rapist or a perjurer as anyone else - election is based on the purposes of God, not on any good in man. Grace does not find us righteous, but makes righteous those to whom it is given. There is not a crumb of comfort here for those who would find their way to God by their own righteousness. Repentance from evil is a grace, not a right - we have no rights before God anyway. What righteous work has a liar, murderer or thief done, to deserve God’s Love ? None at all; so that Love cannot be based on any work in man, who is a rebel against God, & does not deserve the least mercy, but only God’s Wrath & Judgement.

Without this unconditional electing & Sovereign Love, all the good works in the world are dross & excrement. There is nothing in any creature whatever that is not received as a gift - so unless we are our own Creators, Gods, Saviours & Redeemers, we are indebted to God for all that we have. So His Love is absolutely unconditional, & cannot be anything else.
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God’s grace is a sign of his love. And I agree that his grace enables us to be good. But grace is not forced on anyone. If his grace is to bear fruit in our lives, we must freely choose to cooperate with it. Isn’t that a condition? And there is nothing passive about cooperating with God’s grace. It is very demanding to cooperate with God’s grace.
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:
So His Love is absolutely unconditional, & cannot be anything else.
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I’ve come to the conclusion, based on your stated philosophy, that you and I can’t even agree as to the definition of what love is. Hence, any further discussion becomes futile.
 
JMJ / MMM 081012 Sunday
To All Interested –
Then – what IS love? There are many different kinds of love – emotional / the love that a spiritual being can give / that love which is innate to any living thing (a yearning, conscious or unconscious) and tends toward another being, another thing / the Love within the Trinity … and many, many more kinds of love.

But let’s get to the essentials, to the rock bottom, to LOVE in its barest meaning. Love is a CARING (conscious or unconscious) for ANOTHER BEING, whether that love include a benefit for the lover or not.

Jesus at first puzzles us when he says, “Who is good but God only?” Jesus refers to that Infinite, Eternal, Goodness that Exists eternally, regardless of whether or not God ever Willed creation. And so with Beauty and Truth and Oneness and Simplicity … and so with Love. We might say, “Who Is Love and Loves but God alone?” These attributes are shared with us, more or less, by Our Loving God. And as we descend down the ladder of the kinds of finite being the loves we observe and experience diminish, step by step, from Infinite Perfect Love Which Is God.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
 
JohnJFarren said:
JMJ / MMM 081012 Sunday
To All Interested –
Then – what IS love? There are many different kinds of love – emotional / the love that a spiritual being can give / that love which is innate to any living thing (a yearning, conscious or unconscious) and tends toward another being, another thing / the Love within the Trinity … and many, many more kinds of love.

But let’s get to the essentials, to the rock bottom, to LOVE in its barest meaning. **Love is a CARING (conscious or unconscious) for ANOTHER BEING, whether that love include a benefit for the lover or not.**Real love is always a conscious decision. Please explain the kind of love that is not beneficial for the lover.
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JohnJFarren said:
Jesus at first puzzles us when he says, “Who is good but God only?” Jesus refers to that Infinite, Eternal, Goodness that Exists eternally, regardless of whether or not God ever Willed creation. And so with Beauty and Truth and Oneness and Simplicity … and so with Love. We might say, “Who Is Love and Loves but God alone?” These attributes are shared with us, more or less, by Our Loving God. And as we descend down the ladder of the kinds of finite being the loves we observe and experience diminish, step by step, from Infinite Perfect Love Which Is God.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
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As long as you don’t equate perfect love with unconditional love.
 
JMJ / MMM 081014 Tuesday
miguel – Thank you for your response.
I had written, ”Love is a CARING (conscious or unconscious) for ANOTHER BEING, whether that love include a benefit for the lover or not.” And you, miguel, asked me to clarify two things. You questioned or posed, “Real love is always a conscious decision. Please explain the kind of love that is not beneficial for the lover.”

I deny that all real love, as I am defining it, is always a conscious decision. In the subatomic world, in plants, and in animals love is not a conscious decision. (I admit that there are areas regarding animals where, possibly, there may be some form of consciousness.) You are forcing me to think and to clarify my use of the word CARING. I will do that in another posting here, hopefully tomorrow.

You asked me to clarify, “Please explain the kind of love that is not beneficial for the lover.” I mean here that kind of love that is completely selfish, self-centered, and whose benefit for the lover – ah! again! – you force me to think about my wording. I agree, there is some type of benefit, either enjoyment or pleasure or triumph, but it is a false benefit in the sense that it is not ordinated to the true good of the lover.

You also, miguel, implied an objection when you wrote, “As long as you don’t equate perfect love with unconditional love.” Here I stand my ground. I do definitely equate perfect love with unconditional love. As long as we are in this earthly life our love cannot be perfect, and hence, cannot be absolutely unconditional. God’s Love is Perfect infinitely and unconditional infinitely. When we have completely united with God, our Final Meaning, our love shall be the same. I am avoiding here the word “heaven” because it means too many things to too many people. Hence, confusion.

Bottom line – I have to re-examine the definition I offered and rewrite it so as to be clear what I mean. Hopefully tomorrow.
God’s Blessing upon you and everyone.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
 
fewnotmany said:
reprinted from the Original Post:

I’m going to try to make an overly simplified algebraic equation and provide an example where God’s love in the Bible can be viewed as conditional:

1 John 4:8:
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

The English word love in the original Greek text is Agape (ag-ah’-pay). It does not mean to have affection for.

Same word as in 2 John 6 “this is love (agape) that we walk after his commandments”

God = Love.
Love = obeying the commandments.

Rev. 3:19
'Those whom I love (Phileo), I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

If God, as the word in is used in the original Greek text (Theos), means magistrate, then He only has affection (phileo) to those that obey His Laws.
Click to expand...
Requoting your original post does not define what you think love is. And that is key. It is not what we think love is or should be. It is what God says it is. Were we there when He created the heavens and the earth? Who then are we to stand in judgement of Him or His creation? It is these questions that we must ask ourselves. They are the same questions that God Himself asked rhetorically in the OT in the books of Job, Isaiah and several of the prophets.

You also failed to mention that while agape is not an affecionate love, it is sacrificial love which is used also for Jesus in His sacrifice on the Cross for us. John saw this first hand.

In the beginning part of Revelations, the visions given to John then were specific to the seven churches of Asia who looked to John for guidance. Specifically in Rev. 3:19 it is part of an address given to the church of Laodicea. In its entirety it holds a message not only for them but for those of us who live in affluent areas. They (and we) are warned not to trust in our own worldly treasures and powers more than we do in God. They (and we) are being called to trust in God for our wealth and worthiness in His eyes and intentions. It reminds me of what Jesus said in the Gospels in Luke 12:27-28. “See the lilies of the field. They neither toil nor spin yet Solomon in all his splendor was not adorned as well as these. If the Father so clothes the grass today and is throw in the fire tomorrow, will he not much more provide for you?” That is love of caring and providing.

If you would read one verse further into Rev. chap 3 to verse 20 you will notice the quote that inspired the painting of Jesus standing before a door to a house with no outside handle. I must admit that I forget who the artist was who did that originally but the meaning is clear. The door is the door to our hearts and the only way in which Jesus may enter is if we open it.

His love is unconditional. It is there always for us without question. He has promised this throughout our time here on Earth and before even Earth. “I knew you when I knit you in the womb.” He knew us before He stretched out His hands to create the heavens and the Earth.

In Isaiah: 54:8-10 it says:

In an outburst of wrath, for a moment, I hid my face from you. But with enduring love I take pity on you, says the Lord, your redeemer. This is for me like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah should never again deluge the earth. So I have sworn not to be angry with you or to rebuke you. Though the mountains leave their place and the hills be shaken, my love shall never leave you nor my convenant of peace be shaken, says the Lord, who has mercy on you.

This is from the final chapters of Isaiah known as Third Isaiah. It was written in the Isaian tradition after the exile. Despite the sins of the Israelites, despite their turning away from their covenant responsiblities, God’s love was still there for them and was always there for them. His love, His justice, His salvation is eternal.

So the question to be posed may not be is God’s love conditional but rather what does accepting the love of God truly mean to me in my life and in my actions?
Take care
Dennis
 
JohnJFarren said:
…I deny that all real love, as I am defining it, is always a conscious decision. In the subatomic world, in plants, and in animals love is not a conscious decision. (I admit that there are areas regarding animals where, possibly, there may be some form of consciousness.)
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We’re talking about God’s love (and human love since we’re made in his image and likeness).
JohnJFarren said:
…You asked me to clarify, “Please explain the kind of love that is not beneficial for the lover.” I mean here that kind of love that is completely selfish, self-centered, and whose benefit for the lover – ah! again! – you force me to think about my wording. I agree, there is some type of benefit, either enjoyment or pleasure or triumph, but it is a false benefit in the sense that it is not ordinated to the true good of the lover…
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You’re not talking about love.
 
JMJ / MMM 081016 Thursday
Hello Miguel –
I agree I was writing about all kinds of love. I now refer to two kinds of love, one that applies to God … and one that applies to humans.
1) God’s Love = BENEFICIAL CARING, Infinite and Eternal, for GodSelf and actual creatures.
2) Human beings’ love = Beneficial caring, finite and temporal, for God, for oneself, and all actual creatures.

There is a finite love that may not be beneficial, in the long run, to the lover. A thoroughly corrupted person may will some good to another person … BUT solely for the power or enjoyment of the so-called lover. For the moment it might provide for the so-called lover some self-centered good. But in the total life of our thoroughly corrupted person such an achieved “good” would add to the guilt of that person, and hence would not be truly a good.
John (JohnJFarren) Trinity5635@aol.com
 
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