Is healthcare a right or a responsibility?

[_Ruby]

If you want universal health care you must be ok with paying taxes. Do you want to pay taxes like a Swede?
I think a lot of the discussion have to be about taxes.
I guess Americans hate taxes.

The Nordic countries have higher taxes because they have other tax funded programmes the US thinks are not important - like extensive paid maternity leave. Generous paid sick leave, tuition fee free higher eduction, state funded early childcare etc etc.

It is a false comparison to think that the US implementing once facet of that would put them on par with their tax rates.

As a UK tax payer, my total year’s income tax is often not as much as many US poster’s health insurance deductibles. Add in the cost of buying the health insurance every month on top of that, and the US out of pocket costs are far more than my taxes.

I agree that the conversation boils down to how much tax would be used to pay for it. But for that conversation to be meaningful, it would require a deep look into how different countries fund their healthcare, an accurate look into what proportion of the tax money they pay goes towards that system and how much that compares overall to US health insurance costs.

 

[Freddy]

I agree that the conversation boils down to how much tax would be used to pay for it. But for that conversation to be meaningful, it would require a deep look into how different countries fund their healthcare, an accurate look into what proportion of the tax money they pay goes towards that system and how much that compares overall to US health insurance costs.

Exactly. Let’s have a dicussion on the practicalties of the options.

 

[marie3]

You dont Say that when your country pays trillions of your money to make War to poor people who did nothing against you ! But to save lives by healthcare that you doesn’t want ! Egoism is a sin. Only in USA people criticize free healthcare. In France we have it since a Long Time and everybody love it its wonderfull you dont have to be anxious for people you Care if they are ill. Now Only countries of the third World doesn’t have free healthcare. Its wonderfull and I hope you Will benefit of it soon.

 

[new-kirishitan]

I don’t mind paying a bit more taxes as long as 1. They aren’t outrageously expensive 2. They are actually being used to improve my quality of life rather than being used to help some bureaucrat to get some expensive sports car 3. They aren’t being used in a wasteful manner. So as long as I get the worth of my taxes back, I’m totally fine with it. Now, it appears to me that wasteful government spending might be a major problem in the US, especially after repeatedly seeing how ridiculously long it took for Americans to resurface their roads. Usually the crew closes the road and just leave it unfinished for WEEKS, only coming back to do a little bit of work occasionally, and milking that government money throughout the entire time. While in England and Japan it takes only ONE NIGHT to resurface a similar stretch of road. The crew would come in the evening, close the road, scrape off the old surface, clean it up, pave the new surface, and paint the lines. Everything is FINISHED overnight, and the road is open to traffic again by the next morning.

 

[o_mlly]

You’re freaking out because some people drink soda and you’re going to have to pay for their heart attacks.

The more remote the health care payer, the less likely bad behaviors causing health care costs to increase will cease.

Imagine the pressure on dad to quit smoking or mom to quick drinking sugary soda pops would be if the family’s (nuclear and extended) lifestyle would be impacted first.

Third party payer schemes usually result in the false notion that the service is “free”.

 

[jeannetherese]

I think a lot of the discussion have to be about taxes.

I think taxes might be an issue for some, but it’s not the basis for my concern. I wonder about the different ways in which healthcare is rationed in each system.
I worry that one way to limit health care costs (which are a problem in countries with a greater emphasis upon state supplied health care as well as in countries with a more mixed economy style health care system) might involve care for the elderly, particularly as I watch some of the euthenasia issues arising in Europe (and, increasingly, in the United States).
We are an aging population. Alzheimers and dementia care can become pretty expensive. Increasingly, we are seeing decisions made to euthenize members of these vulnerable populations.
I’m hesitant to add to the power of the state, which will have a vested interest in constraining costs (both in terms of services delivered and medical salaries) and in terms of providing support to wage earners who are better able to pay the taxes which feed the system. I think those outside of labor marketsmight be seen as a drag upon the system, more expendable than those 20-50 year olds whose labor is powering the economy.
We see arguments that preborn children are expendable because they constrain opportunity for those with disproportionate power (mothers). I can easily imagine similar arguments concerning those mothers when they get to be 65 or 70 and become more expensive to maintain.
I wonder, if we might not have been able to provide better elder care, when multiple generations lived together or in close proximity?
Philosophically, I’m looking for ways in which caring for others strengthens family and community bonds. I see state sponsored care as potentially increasing alienation in our society.
There are so many different factors to consider and I appreciate the insights others are sharing.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

It’s ridiculous to even think these are conscious decisions people are making. Read St. Augustine’s Confessions! You’re describing habits, but voluntary choices. No one says, “Hey. I’ll give my self diabetes because other people will pay for my leg amputation.” Read St. Augustine!

 

[o_mlly]

It’s ridiculous to even think these are conscious decisions people are making. Read St. Augustine’s Confessions! You’re describing habits, but voluntary choices. No one says, “Hey. I’ll give my self diabetes because other people will pay for my leg amputation.” Read St. Augustine!

Augustine:

Man’s nature, indeed, was created at first faultless and without any sin; but that nature of man in which every one is born from Adam, now wants the Physician, because it is not sound. All good qualities … which it still possesses in its make … it has of the Most High God, its creator and maker. But the flaw, which darkens and weakens all those natural goods … it has not contracted from its blameless Creator- but from that original sin, which it committed by free will.

Perhaps you should read Augustine again.

All deliberate decisions are conscious decisions. Vice, the habit of choosing evil, does not excuse the agent from his act. His culpability in the act may be mitigated by the habit. But he remains culpable for the willful ignorance that precedes his act, the vicious habit.

Imagine how shorter his willful ignorance could continue when mom and the kids harangue dad every day about his smoking.

 

[Batman2.0]

I’m sorry, I was just using abortion as an example. I didn’t mean to say you support abortion.

 

[Hodos]

Is the pandemic going to kick start another universal healthcare debate? Some say it will. I’m curious how other Catholics respond to this question.

To answer your title question, you have no right to someone else’s labor, be they farmer, store clerk, even doctors and nurses. Therefore healthcare is not a right, it is a commodity that is consumed with the expectation of providing an equal exchange of goods or labor. If someone chooses to provide their labor at low or no cost to you, that isn’t a right or obligation that they owe you, it is grace. I don’t work for free unless I choose to do so. Neither do doctors or nurses. We need to stop thinking in terms of compelling others to provide goods and services for free as some sort of right or obligation they owe us. Economic systems based on compelling people’s labor at their own cost is not moral. It is slavery.

 

[KMC]

VonDerTann:

Look, this is a Catholic forum and yes, we need to help others. But it’s not unreasonable to ask, “to what extent?” In light of the questions I’ve posed. No one who’s advocated that health care is a right has really tried to answer any of them.

It’s actually more straightforward than most people like to claim (note that I am not claiming that “simple” and “easy” are the same thing).

If the doctor needs to repair something that went wrong (stop the bleeding, cut out the cancer, supply insulin, retrain your muscles, pull an abcessed tooth, etc), it’s paid for.

If the doctor needs to prevent something from going wrong (give an annual physical, take a mammogram, perform a prenatal checkup, prescribe a prophylactic medicine, etc.), it’s paid for.

If the doctor needs to do something truly elective (several examples were given earlier in this thread, but basically it’s neither curative nor preventive), it isn’t paid for unless the organization — the private health insurance company, the government plan, whichever — so chooses. Which means it isn’t a right.

So: Plastic surgery: paid for or not? If it’s because you just want a more prominent chin, no. If it’s to remove the scars left from the car accident, yes.

This is what is needed. What I see way too many times is a lot of bible quotes, CCC quotes, etc. Then if a question is asked, get ready to be told how you aren’t following Jesus’s teachings.

Quoting Scripture or the Church is easy…applying it as Christians and getting into the necessary details is the hard part.

I appreciate you took the time to write some details down.

 

[KMC]

If you read through the thread you find people have different definitions for a “right.” Some are using it as in “Constitutional right”, while others are using a definition of “right” that would be better called a “moral obligation.”

I’m in the camp of calling healthcare a moral obligation. You can’t call it a “right” because as you just said, a “right” would be something you don’t have to pay for, that you get just because you are a citizen. Nobody has a right to the goods and labor of others. We as Christians have a moral obligation to help others get an appropriate level of healthcare.

 

[Hodos]

If you read through the thread you find people have different definitions for a “right.” Some are using it as in “Constitutional right”, while others are using a definition of “right” that would be better called a “moral obligation.”

I don’t think it qualifies as either. The laborer is worth his wages. Again, I don’t have a right to your labor, no matter how much I might want it. Nor do I have a moral obligation to provide you my labor free of charge. I can do so. I can provide my labor without the benefit of being compensated, but not because I am obligated to do so. It is because I choose to do so out of grace, mercy, and love.

Here is the issue, and why I make the distinction. Those who advocate for socialist models of healthcare frequently try to declare that one has a right to healthcare to turn it into a moral issue rather than answering the question of what is the most effective means of delivering the best healthcare to the greatest amount of people. I don’t have an issue if you want to try to make the case that socialized medicine is more efficient in some ways. It is dishonest however to try to make the case on a moral basis because it is immoral to compel other people’s labor without providing compensation for the goods and services that I receive.

 

[KMC]

I didn’t state my position clearly. I think society has a moral obligation to provide / help / assist it citizens to get some basic level of healthcare. The doctor or hospital does not have a moral obligation to provide goods and services for free.

I’m not for socialized medicine / single payer in the US because the US government has proven time and again, that it does nothing cost effectively. Nothing. If someone wants to look at the quality of government run healthcare, then look at the VA system, which I haven’t found many people willing to vouch for its quality.

Is this better?

 

[Walk-worthy]

Healthcare is a right - everyone has the right to look after and protect their own life; here in the UK everyone is guaranteed access to the NHS, which we all pay for through taxes because it’s in everyone’s best interest that the nation’s people be as healthy as possible.

I love the catch-phrase “access to healthcare” ! I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t have access to healthcare in the USA! But I bet I can find a lot of people who don’t have access in the UK and/or Canada!

And if everyone has the right to look after and protect their own life why did the world watch Alfie Evans and others be denied medical treatment? I’d say the NHS selects who they want to treat and who gets yanked from the system!

 

[LouiseHine]

Apologies, I mis-typed; that should have read, “Access to free healthcare at the point of delivery.”

 

[Emeraldlady]

KMC:

If you read through the thread you find people have different definitions for a “right.” Some are using it as in “Constitutional right”, while others are using a definition of “right” that would be better called a “moral obligation.”

I don’t think it qualifies as either. The laborer is worth his wages. Again, I don’t have a right to your labor, no matter how much I might want it. Nor do I have a moral obligation to provide you my labor free of charge. I can do so. I can provide my labor without the benefit of being compensated, but not because I am obligated to do so. It is because I choose to do so out of grace, mercy, and love.

Here is the issue, and why I make the distinction. Those who advocate for socialist models of healthcare frequently try to declare that one has a right to healthcare to turn it into a moral issue rather than answering the question of what is the most effective means of delivering the best healthcare to the greatest amount of people. I don’t have an issue if you want to try to make the case that socialized medicine is more efficient in some ways. It is dishonest however to try to make the case on a moral basis because it is immoral to compel other people’s labor without providing compensation for the goods and services that I receive.

The most glaring flaw in your argument is that no one gives their labour for free. Doctors, nurses etc. They all still get paid. So you’ll have to re think that objection.

 

[Peeps]

I hate soda

I love soda!! It’s the only thing I drink.

For the last several years, I generally drink diet soda, except for one delicious, ice-cold Mountain Dew (12 oz can) first thing in the morning. MMMMM!

Yes, I know all about the dangers of soda. I still choose to drink it, just like the people who drink alcohol no doubt know all the dangers, but still choose to drink it.

I’m guessing that pretty much everyone in the U.S. has at least one food “guilty pleasure.”

 

[Socrates92]

I love soda!! It’s the only thing I drink.

For the last several years, I generally drink diet soda, except for one delicious, ice-cold Mountain Dew (12 oz can) first thing in the morning. MMMMM!

Yes, I know all about the dangers of soda. I still choose to drink it, just like the people who drink alcohol no doubt know all the dangers, but still choose to drink it.

I’m guessing that pretty much everyone in the U.S. has at least one food “guilty pleasure.”

Coffee is better.

 

[Peeps]

Coffee is better.

Ooh, I don’t like coffee at all! It’s bitter.

Actually, I don’t like any “hot” drinks, including hot chocolate. I’ll drink it when it cools down, and same for hot cider. But both of those drinks are loaded with sugar, so I can’t see that they are better for me than Diet Coke.

By the way, I LOVE a good cold Diet Coke while standing outside on a snowy day at a winter festival or shopping or ice skating rink!

My brother and my two daughters are absolutely addicted to coffee. My older daughter has her alarm clock synched with her coffee pot, and she drinks an entire pot of coffee before she takes a shower. I think she drinks several pots of coffee every day–at least, that’s what she does when she’s home.

Like I said, we all have our “food vice!”