Is healthcare a right or a responsibility?

[StudentMI]

301. The rights of workers, like all other rights, are based on the nature of the human person and on his transcendent dignity . The Church’s social Magisterium has seen fit to list some of these rights, in the hope that they will be recognized in juridical systems: the right to a just wage; [651] the right to rest; [652] the right “to a working environment and to manufacturing processes which are not harmful to the workers’ physical health or to their moral integrity”; [653] the right that one’s personality in the workplace should be safeguarded “without suffering any affront to one’s conscience or personal dignity”; [654] the right to appropriate subsidies that are necessary for the subsistence of unemployed workers and their families; [655] the right to a pension and to insurance for old age, sickness, and in case of work-related accidents; [656] the right to social security connected with maternity; [657] the right to assemble and form associations.[658]

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...peace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

 

[VonDerTann]

You haven’t proven that the “vast majority” of any population has “unaffordable” health care. I’d respectfully submit that you can’t prove that, because it isn’t so, as to the USA.

As to the US, most Americans get good-to-great healthcare, via doctors trained at good medical schools; care far superior to most of the world; and drugs usually covered in whole or part by insurance. As to the same segment, many would gripe at any bill above zero, without fully understanding what difficulties they’d face if, say, free medical care at taxpayer expense suddenly became the norm.

 

[upant]

I believe it is a right.

when did it become a right?

301. The rights of workers,

define rights

what makes these things rights?

 

[StudentMI]

The full quote mentions from what they originate. The entire Compendium talks about rights. Read from #152 on. It’s a section about human rights.

 

[blackforest]

I’d respectfully submit that you can’t prove that, because it isn’t so, as to the USA.

Health care is officially unaffordable for half of the country and too expensive for regardless of income.

care far superior to most of the world;

Provide evidence for this claim, please.

As to the same segment, many would gripe at any bill above zero, without fully understanding what difficulties they’d face if, say, free medical care at taxpayer expense suddenly became the norm.

Enlighten us. What difficulties did you have in mind?

 

[VonDerTann]

Please read my above posts. I answered these previously.

 

[blackforest]

I’m not digging through 296 posts to find your specific beef against single-payer health care. Can you at least provide a post number?

Also, are you able to support your claim that the U.S. has “care far superior to most of the world?”

 

[VonDerTann]

What I’d said was this:

–The world’s best medical schools are in the US. By contrast, many other nations’ “medical schools” turn out “doctors” who at best can serve as nurses or medical techs in the US. Would you rather be treated by a doctor who studied at Yale? Or some med school in the Caribbean; Krzgystan, or somewhere else?

–For that matter, where is the best medical research done? The USA.

–Where do the world’s rich go for care? The USA. If you’re some Saudi prince and need an operation, you come to the USA (or more likely fly the US doctor to you!).

–Would you rather trust drug makers & testers like Merck; Johnson & Johnson, etc. (particularly with US testing regulations), or some drug made in China?

–For that matter, many other nations’ drug supplies basically come from the US’ unused drug stocks.

Want the best? You’re going to pay for it.

Want to wait months for a doctor? Want rationed care? Move to Europe, with it’s cradle-to-grave taxation.

---

Now, to continue on a bit, I also cited to a survey of Canadian healthcare, which opined that the Canadian people largely see the US system as a safety valve, wherein, if they get really ill and need the best care, they come south to the USA to get it. I hadn’t seen that when I wrote my post I just cut from, but that article says what it says, and concludes that when people want/need the best care, they come down from Canada to the US to get it.

 

[blackforest]

–The world’s best medical schools are in the US. By contrast, many other nations’ “medical schools” turn out “doctors” who at best can serve as nurses or medical techs in the US. Would you rather be treated by a doctor who studied at Yale? Or some med school in the Caribbean; Krzgystan, or somewhere else?

–For that matter, where is the best medical research done? The USA.

–Where do the world’s rich go for care? The USA. If you’re some Saudi prince and need an operation, you come to the USA (or more likely fly the US doctor to you!).

–Would you rather trust drug makers & testers like Merck; Johnson & Johnson, etc. (particularly with US testing regulations), or some drug made in China?

–For that matter, many other nations’ drug supplies basically come from the US’ unused drug stocks.

This isn’t evidence. Please provide credible sources.

Want to wait months for a doctor?

We’re doing just that to get my husband to a specialist. We live in the U.S.

Want rationed care?

The name for that is insurance companies. Health Care Rationing Is Nothing New [Excerpt] - Scientific American

 

[upant]

The full quote mentions from what they originate. The entire Compendium talks about rights. Read from #152 on. It’s a section about human rights.

okay

1. The movement towards the identification and proclamation of human rights is one of the most significant attempts to respond effectively to the inescapable demands of human dignity[302].

the issue I have with this is that anything can be identified as a right and therefore everything can be considered a right by someone.

what can be identified as a right today can be deemed not a right tomorrow, if it is left up to man.

does a person have a right to work overtime? does the next person a right to not work overtime? these are working conditions similar to what you showed above. where does it stop? why pay anything for healthcare if it is a right? do governments have an unfettered right to tax so healthcare can be paid for?

why weren’t these things rights for centuries?

 

[VonDerTann]

You asked me why I concluded the US healthcare system was the best in the world. I did so, with a host of reasons. Just saying, “this isn’t evidence, provide credible sources!,” is ineffective, because I’ve given a host of reasons why I conclude as I do. If you think I’m wrong in my conclusions, tell me why. If you think my planks are wrong, tell me why, please:

–Do you think medical schools are really better in, say, the middle east or the Caribbean than in the US?
–Do you really believe I’m wrong, when I write that foreign-trained “doctors” are often unqualified to be doctors in the USA?
–Do you think foreign drug stocks don’t come from the USA as I wrote? Am I wrong?
–Would you, in fact, rather get your drugs from China than from the USA? If so, why?
–Do you think Americans go elsewhere for their care? Or do the world’s rich come here? Do you think my citing a Canadian survey where Canadians come to the US for care, is wrong? Or that I’m making it up (I gave the publication and the date; it’s freely available on the web)?

I am in fact sincerely sorry you can’t get a specialist quickly, but that doesn’t mean it is any better overseas. Further, there are a whole host of reasons this may be the case (you don’t have to answer). Could there be a genuine dispute over what care he needs? Might you live in a rural area where A++ care isn’t available (the best doctors, best-equipped hospitals, etc., are invariably in major metropolitan areas). Might the doctor you prefer genuinely have life-and-death cases ahead of you? Note I am not suggesting his condition isn’t life-threatening; I’m just sort of wondering. Most Americans get very good health care, particularly considering how remote many places in the USA are, compared to, say, Europe.

Your reference to insurance companies is misplaced, because, as I’ve repeatedly said, health care and health insurance are not synonymous.

 

[upant]

It’s whatever the government decides is necessary. Trump wants to prop up investors. Why not prop up sick people?

or what the majority identifies…

it isn’t about trump or sick people,

the question is, is it a right?

however, billionaires have rights too

 

[blackforest]

You asked me why I concluded the US healthcare system was the best in the world. I did so, with a host of reasons. Just saying, “this isn’t evidence, provide credible sources!,” is ineffective, because I’ve given a host of reasons why I conclude as I do.

Reasons aren’t evidence. You need evidence to support your reasons. For example, show a list of medical school rankings by country, another of health outcomes, etc.

Your reference to insurance companies is misplaced, because, as I’ve repeatedly said, health care and health insurance are not synonymous.

Granted, but you were speaking out against a single-payer system of insuring others due to “rationing.” I’m telling you that a system of employer-based corporate insurance is rationing, the very thing you denounce. Call it what you will, but that’s the core point.

 

[VonDerTann]

I’ve made my points. If you really disagree with anything I’ve written, you’ve had ample chance to tell us why.

FWIW, in a US News & World Report ranking of best clinical med schools in the entire world, the US has 15 of the top 20 (including the top 3). U of Toronto is #4; UK has 3 schools; Sweden has 1 school. The other 15 med schools of the top 20 are American.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/clinical-medicine

I’ve made my points & rest my case. Best healthcare in the world? USA.

 

[blackforest]

FWIW, in a US News & World Report ranking of best clinical med schools in the entire world, the US has 15 of the top 20 (including the top 3). U of Toronto is #4; UK has 3 schools; Sweden has 1 school. The other 15 med schools of the top 20 are American.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/clinical-medicine

Yes! Perfect! Now we’re making headway. Make a claim, provide support for it.

It’s just a shame that you won’t be able to defend your next one.

Best healthcare in the world? USA.

Actually, it does not naturally follow that a handful of top-ranked medical schools translates to superior health care.

1. People from all over the world attend U.S. medical schools. Then they return to their home countries to practice medicine.
2. The U.S. has 76 programs for aspiring MDs and DOs. Most students will attend schools that are not highly selective.
3. Good schooling for health care providers does not equate to good health care ourcomes. In short, you are incorrect. The U.S. ranks worst in the industrialized world for affordability, access, equity, and, most notably, health care outcomes. (Scroll down to Exhibit 3 for the shorthand version).

Our abysmal data for maternal mortality, infant mortality, and physician incompetence don’t bode well for us, either.

So please stop telling us that our health care is “superior” and we should be paying an over-inflated price for it. It simply isn’t true.

 

[VonDerTann]

Sorry, your “source,” when you read it carefully, appears to be very little more than a poll of people treated, i.e., “were you happy with the care you received?” It’s not truly a comparison of the various systems.

If anything, your own posts display your bias: any argument you’re shown will be brought back to “my husband can’t get a specialist,” which you’ve done, and suggesting your own unhappiness with the system. That’s why polls aren’t evidence.

You have done absolutely nothing to actually refute anything I’ve said, other than to just demand more and more proof. You have offered nothing suggesting anything I’ve said is wrong.

Attaching articles attacking doctors as a whole (“doctors make errors!”) does nothing to undermine my position. Do you think doctors anywhere else in the world don’t make errors? It’s not like you have pointed to any sources saying, for example, “rich Americans routinely run to Canada for care,” when I’ve pointed to studies showing the exact opposite (Canadians come here for treatment) is true.

I wish you a sincere good luck finding a specialist for your husband.

 

[neophyte]

Rights are bestowed by the governing body, not nature, and they can be taken away by that same governing body. Rights are a legal construct

So then the government can legitimately take away every right you have, say that you have no rights at all and march you off to a gas chamber for whatever reason it sees fit or no reason at all?

No. There are fundamental rights that are not granted by government, and they can never be legitimately taken away,

As for the OP, everyone has the right to work so that they can provide themselves the necessities of life.

 

[StudentMI]

the issue I have with this is that anything can be identified as a right and therefore everything can be considered a right by someone.

This is a Church document, not just someone.

 

[neophyte]

This is a Church document, not just someone.

That’s true. It says that our right to work is implied by our obligation to work so that we may provide for ourselves.

It most certainly doesn’t say anything about a system of government-supplied universal health care.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

People will always want something that has value, when it’s offered to them for free (or when it’s paid for by someone else). Whether they like it or not is irrelevent.

For that matter, you’re also committing the fallacy of “I don’t like going to the doctor, therefore no one else does.” You clearly don’t know many doctors or lawyers: enormous numbers of people just love going to see doctors and lawyers. Why? Because they get made a fuss over by, and get attention from, well-educated and successful people. They’ll do it more if it costs them nothing.

Even if there are a few people who would go to their PCP to chat, it is not a big problem, and we’ll worth it if we can assure that everyone has basic healthcare. The lawyers analogy is inapplicable.