Is healthcare a right or a responsibility?

[VonDerTann]

“Take it and go”? What is this: you can talk to us, but we’re supposed to be potted plants and not respond?

Most people don’t “pass out downtown” and your comments unfairly minimize the importance of actually being an advocate and an educated consumer, as if the default setting is to be - again - a potted plant, just blindly accepting whatever healthcare is offered.

Virtually all US health insurances have exceptions for truly emergent care. I don’t know each and every detail of each and every policy, but that’s usually why insurance exists. If your argument is, “some people have no insurance,” those folks are generally eligible for charity care if they’re needy.

 

[neophyte]

Throwing a label with drug abuse overtones…

You obviously don’t understand codependency very well.

Very few people today earn by their own efforts enough money to pay for any medical procedure they might need.

There you go again: “any medical procedure they might need” is not basic health care. You need to make up your mind.

Again, it’s quite simply not possible to provide any and all existing medical protocols to anyone and everyone who might need it, and to try to have it done by government fiat will cause grave economic harm.

But the private insurance system is tied to employment so that it is not completely under the control of each person.

So what? Nothing is completely under anyones control.

Consider other public goods provided by taxes: Public schools. Fire departments. We don’t insist that everyone who wants an education for their children must hire teachers or enroll is a private school. And we don’t insist that everyone who wants to protect his house from fire must hire their own private fire department. Health care can be treated like that.

It’s telling that you compare health care to public schools and fire departments, because there is no natural right to have either of them either. The civil government can legitimately choose to not provide them, so in not attempting to provide limitless health care we are treating it as we treat them.

And in fact, we can’t provide limitless health care in the way we provide fire departments. We know that the fixed costs of maintaining fire departments and the incremental costs of putting out fires are stable, while the same costs for health care are anything but. We know that most buildings will never catch fire, while we know that everyone will get sick and everyone will die. You’re making a patently false equivalence.

And again, you’re muddying the water. The question isn’t “why can’t we do it”, the question is “does anyone have a natural right to it”. The answer is “NO”.

I see no reason to continue here.

 

[StudentMI]

It’s telling that you compare health care to public schools and fire departments, because there is no natural right to have either of them either. The civil government can legitimately choose to not provide them, so in not attempting to provide limitless health care we are treating it as we treat them.

According to the Church there is a right to health care. It has not defined to my knowledge whether that is a natural right or a general right. Or what would be the difference between the two for that matter!

 

[neophyte]

According to the Church there is a right to health care.

As has been repeatedly said, the right to provide yourself with the necessities of life does not imply a right to have them provided to you.

“He who will not work, let him also not eat”.

 

[StudentMI]

Yes but as the quote I last shared said

“Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God”[391], even if the practice of charity is not limited to alms-giving but implies addressing the social and political dimensions of the problem of poverty. In her teaching the Church constantly returns to this relationship between charity and justice: “When we attend to the needs of those in want, we give them what is theirs, not ours. More than performing works of mercy, we are paying a debt of justice”[392].

And please don’t take that quote out of context. There’s a specific context to which Paul was speaking as explained, among other places, in the Didache Bible.

Also there’s a great book from the early 30s called The Great Commandment of the Gospel in the Early Church that illustrates the lengths to which the early Christians went to care for people. I recommend it.

 

[blackforest]

There are lifestyle choices involved with many cases of diabetes. Encouraging home cooking, healthy recipes and exercise might go a long way towards addressing this.

I shouldn’t have checked in with this thread. (I had it muted for sanity’s sake). But I must correct this common misconception. People do not “ask for” Type 1 diabetes. It is not a “lifestyle choice.” And they certainly don’t ask for the shamelessly price-gouged insulin and monitors.

Type 2, we’re increasingly learning, is not “caused” by eating too much sugar. It’s a lot more complex than that and very often influenced by genetics.

I have to chime in because diabetes has become the quintessential poster child against single-payer health care due so few people truly understanding the condition.

 

[Anrakyr]

“Take it and go”? What is this: you can talk to us, but we’re supposed to be potted plants and not respond?

Intelligently.

Most people don’t “pass out downtown”

Heart-attack
Stroke
Diabetes shock
Sudden loss of blood
Extreme pain

Just off the top of my head.

just blindly accepting whatever healthcare is offered.

You seem to have a hard time pictiurng people getting quality public healthcare. This is a personal problem and not one I can help you with.
Why?
Because any example I give you you already convinced yourself is void. I see this all through the thread from you.
I could tell you the quality that Ive received but you just say “In your experience.”

This is why take it and go. We’ve reached an impasse.

Again, it’s quite simply not possible to provide any and all existing medical protocols to anyone and everyone who might need it, and to try to have it done by government fiat will cause grave economic harm.

We been doing it for a long time in Canada. So…

 

[neophyte]

We been doing it for a long time in Canada. So…

I know too many Canadians to be fooled by that claim.

 

[Anrakyr]

I know too many Canadians to be fooled by that claim.

Obviously not well. Our economy (before Covid19) was pretty good. Any shortfall wasn’t due to healthcare.

 

[VonDerTann]

OK, we’re at an impasse. So…YOU go! I’m sorry, but you are in no position to tell anyone “take it and go.” When I read that, you actually compliment me: You’re really saying, “I don’t like what you say, but I can’t argue with it and can’t refute it, so I’ll demand you leave soon!”

Nope. I ain’t going.

Now, as to the whole “I’m walking down the street and suddenly experience massive blood loss,” no, I’d say that happens…rarely. Yes, emergencies happen. But as I said: Insurance covers genuine medical emergencies.

Yes, I’m hard to argue with on this subject, because I am, in fact, convinced that US healthcare is the best in the world. Think I’m wrong? Feel free. Think I’ll cave and backtrack? Well, saying “take it and go,!” certainly does nothing to make me decide I’m wrong, or that you’re correct.

I have already critiqued Canadian healthcare. It’s great…as long as you don’t get too sick. When you do, you come to the US.

 

[StudentMI]

What about Swedish health care? Keep in mind I’m not citing the socialist era of Sweden but the more modern kind.

Socialism Didn’t Work In Sweden, And It Won’t Work In America

It’s more locally administered which sounds more logical than federally planned.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Very few people today earn by their own efforts enough money to pay for any medical procedure they might need.

There you go again: “any medical procedure they might need” is not basic health care.

It is what I intended by the term “procedure they might need”. I specifically do not mean “any procedure they might want”. To get very specific, chemotherapy and radiation for cancer is something that some people absolutely need. And yet a person with an average income cannot afford to pay this from their own pocket. And some people, through no serious moral fault of their own, either have lost their health insurance, or are unable to purchase it because they are already sick with cancer. If this treatment is not subsidized, or if they are not lucky enough to have someone give it to them, they will die. That is why it is proper for us to join all the other developed nations and provide a basic level of health care.

It’s telling that you compare health care to public schools and fire departments, because there is no natural right to have either of them either.

I realize that this thread title focuses on the concept of health care as a right, either in the Constitutional sense or the natural law sense. I am not really arguing that. I am arguing that providing health care to all our citizens is something we can do and ought to do. Just like public education and fire protection. I don’t see you complaining that providing free public school education is something we should not do, or the same with fire protection.

The civil government can legitimately choose to not provide them…

…but we don’t.

so in not attempting to provide limitless health care we are treating it as we treat them.

Again, I am not arguing for limitless health care. Other nations have established reasonable guidelines as to what is provided. We could do even better.

And in fact, we can’t provide limitless health care in the way we provide fire departments. We know that the fixed costs of maintaining fire departments and the incremental costs of putting out fires are stable, while the same costs for health care are anything but.

For the individual, health care costs are highly variable. But taken as a large group, and when the services provided are well defined, just as private insurance companies have been doing for years, the total cost can be estimated quite accurately.

We know that most buildings will never catch fire, while we know that everyone will get sick and everyone will die.

Most people die without utilizing the maximum medical intervention possible - such as sudden stroke, or heart attacks, and many die in hospice care, which utilizes much lower cost care than a maximum medical intervention. A level of appropriate care can be defined so that it is affordable and fair. This system of employer-based health insurance just isn’t delivering for all.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There are lifestyle choices involved with many cases of diabetes. Encouraging home cooking, healthy recipes and exercise might go a long way towards addressing this.

Not for everyone. And even if some cases have been negatively influenced by eating habits, that does not excuse us from providing the insulin they need to live. Even people who have lung cancer from smoking, which is clearly a lifestyle choice, deserve to have cancer treatment, even if they can’t afford it.

LeafByNiggle:

A totally unsupported and unsupportable statement.

I can support it.
I had a major emergency surgery without insurance about 10 years ago. Charity care covered my entire hospitalization.
I have helped other seek charity care.

The thing that cannot be supported is the statement that all or most people can get the care they absolutely need though charity. I’m glad you got the care you needed. Not everyone can.

 

[StudentMI]

Even people who have lung cancer from smoking, which is clearly a lifestyle choice, deserve to have cancer treatment, even if they can’t afford it.

Amen to that. If we were all penalized for dumb choices we made I’m pretty sure I’d already be dead!

What we need is a subsidiary system based on communal giving that helps those in need of help, in my opinion. Something local, but with an eye toward the common good.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Even people who have lung cancer from smoking, which is clearly a lifestyle choice, deserve to have cancer treatment, even if they can’t afford it.

Amen to that. If we were all penalized for dumb choices we made I’m pretty sure I’d already be dead!

What we need is a subsidiary system based on communal giving that helps those in need of help, in my opinion. Something local, but with an eye toward the common good.

A voluntary system would be better than a centralized mandatory one. But if the voluntary system does not materialize, or does not provide sufficient resources, the only choice is a society-wide system.

 

[Anrakyr]

Yes, I’m hard to argue with on this subject, because I am, in fact, convinced that US healthcare is the best in the world. Think I’m wrong? Feel free. Think I’ll cave and backtrack? Well, saying “take it and go,!” certainly does nothing to make me decide I’m wrong, or that you’re correct.

Being convinced because of some misguided sense of patriotism or national pride doesn’t make it true.

Ive argued the facts, points none of which you addressed.

That’s why I say take it and go, you are no longer contributing in a constructive manner.
You enter a discussion with the knowledge you maybe wrong. Not bull headed stubbornness.

I have already critiqued Canadian healthcare. It’s great…as long as you don’t get too sick. When you do, you come to the US.

For what?

 

[VonDerTann]

I’ve said it all before. Read my posts above.

Funny how everyone else is allowed to defend their countries, but when an American defends the USA it’s misguided nationalism.

PM me for specialists when you can’t find one and need to come South

 

[Anrakyr]

Funny how everyone else is allowed to defend their countries, but when an American defends the USA it’s misguided nationalism.

Because when we(non Americans) see an issue with your system and bring it up you(plural) retort with derision dismiss it. Not address the point or explain that we just misunderstand then fix the misunderstanding.

Nope, far easier to just toot a horn “we are number one.”

USA isn’t in the top 20 health index. You know who is? Public funded health nation’s with healthcare for all.

You have the charge master scam, out of network traps and the fact if you can’t pay you don’t get help.

PM me for specialists when you can’t find one and need to come South

We have specialist here too ya know.

 

[VonDerTann]

If US healthcare is so bad…why do so many rich non-Americans want to come to the US for treatment?

 

[Anrakyr]

If US healthcare is so bad…why do so many rich non-Americans want to come to the US for treatment?

Because they have money.