Is healthcare a right or a responsibility?

[upant]

This is not only wrong, its completely backwards. Virtually all rights depend on the acts of others. Can you name a right you have that you have sustained without the assistance of others? (You realize that your viewpoint on this couldn’t be more at odds with the Church teachings, right?)

depends on if you think rights are negative or positive.

Rights place an obligation on others to not act in a way that invades that which is claimed by those rights.

Rights do not demand action from others to sustain that which is claimed by those rights

Rights demand recognition, respect, and restraint on the part of others. Rights do not demand action.

https://libertarianstandard.com/articles/gabriel-e-vidal/healthcare-is-not-a-human-right/

how do you define rights?

 

[VonDerTann]

…and because they go where the good treatment is.

 

[StudentMI]

Dude if you’re going to cite libertarian theorists on natural rights go to the source: Murray Rothbard. You know, the guy who said it was in line with natural rights if a mother starves her infant child to death.

 

[StudentMI]

Healthcare Is Not a Human Right

Dude he cites Rothbard, specifically The Ethics of Liberty. This is the passage I was referencing from Rothbard:

…the parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights. …the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die. The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive. …should a parent have the right to allow a deformed baby to die (e.g., by not feeding it)? The answer is of course yes, following a fortiori from the larger right to allow any baby, whether deformed or not, to die.

Children and Rights | Mises Institute

 

[TMC]

Rights can be both positive and negative. They create responsibilities in others. To believe otherwise makes rights meaningless.

 

[upant]

You don’t get to make sweeping generalizations and you most certainly don’t get to beg the question

wrong

it is not a sweeping generalization. it is a question about one person and what he/she is due if anything. does he/she have a right to these items? does one morally have to provide what another will not work for?

This “ya but” isn’t constructive.

this “ya but” shows what is wrong with the opposite view

so again

is there a right to expect to be given anything.

According to the Church there is a right to health care. It has not defined to my knowledge whether that is a natural right or a general right. Or what would be the difference between the two for that matter!

does the church define healthcare and what is due?

Dude if you’re going to cite libertarian theorists on natural rights go to the source: Murray Rothbard. You know, the guy who said it was in line with natural rights if a mother starves her infant child to death.

dude?

why should I go to the source? I didn’t claim the source was correct in anything.

I agree with Gabriel E. Vidal on his view in this one article on healthcare. I have not endorsed rothbard or his form of libertarian politics. you are grasping for straws

vidal also cites the Summa Theologica, will you argue against Saint Thomas Aquinas because he is cited in an article of a libertarian?

 

[StudentMI]

Rothbard cited Aquinas extensively. How he derived such a disgusting system I’ll never know.

If you only believe in negative rights you should read this article by Edward Feser about his ‘road from libertarianism’.

Edward Feser: The road from libertarianism

 

[upant]

Rights can be both positive and negative. They create responsibilities in others.

only if you consider recognition, respect, and restraint as responsibilities

rights do not require the actions of others.

To believe otherwise makes rights meaningless.

to believe rights require action renders them meaningless because of freewill. you can never guarantee someone will provide an action.

 

[StudentMI]

rights do not require the actions of others.

If you believe that then you agree with Rothbard. That was my point in citing him. If there are only negative rights you can’t force a mother to feed her child.

 

[BornInMarch]

My stance on universal healthcare is “Why not?”. It seems like something that’ll help a lot of people without hurting anyone.

 

[TMC]

If you believe that then you agree with Rothbard. That was my point in citing him. If there are only negative rights you can’t force a mother to feed her child.

This is at heart a deeply disingenuous position that seeks to give lip service to rights without recognizing any concomitant responsibilities.

 

[StudentMI]

Are you saying my position is disingenuous? Or Rothbard’s? I don’t agree with Rothbard. I was just citing him as an example.

 

[TMC]

Are you saying my position is disingenuous? Or Rothbard’s? I don’t agree with Rothbard. I was just citing him as an example.

No, I was commenting on Rothbard’s position, or anyone that believes that rights can meaningfully exist without creating responsibilities in others. I understand that is not your position. It is a position sometimes described as “libertarian,” but it more accurately describes a desire to evade personal and social responsibility for others.

 

[Pattylt]

If US healthcare is so bad…why do so many rich non-Americans want to come to the US for treatment?

I can also ask, if American healthcare is so wonderful, why do so many go to Mexico for surgery and treatments? Thousands do so. Why do so many Americans get their prescriptions filled in Canada?

US healthcare has some parts that are outstanding. We have many excellent doctors and hospitals. But, we miss far too many people. Insurance plans can be excellent but costly. Insurance plans can be more reasonably priced but their coverage is appalling.

Mental health is one area where we do a terrible job in coverage. Out of network gotchas can leave someone facing bankruptcy. And, if you think we don’t have long waits to get into a specialist for non emergent care, you haven’t tried to get an appointment with a gynecologist, cardiologist or hematologists!

Often, the problem of affordable access to healthcare isn’t the person who’s destitute…we have Medicaid. The problem is the working poor with horrible plans that leave them with bills they can’t pay, yet are disqualified from charity care…and that’s a large number of people!

If someone gets Cadillac care and very low copays, they had Cadillac coverage they could pay for. Most of us are stuck with Hyundai plans with very high copays and loopholes everywhere.

 

[VonDerTann]

Hi Patty! As usual you offer something interesting.

I think the idea of going to places like Tijuana for cosmetic surgery is based almost solely on cost, as the procedures done there are purely elective. That why we hear stories about people going to Tijuana for cheap breast augmentation and never waking up. By contrast I understand the US to have more and better specialists where - regrettably - cost is no option.

A Major League Baseball player today announced he had stage 3 colon cancer and was undergoing Chemo.
He’s 28 and credits his team with saving his life (he had no symptoms and the cancer was found as a result of a routine physical). Time from diagnosis to colon surgery? 6 days. That’s not happening in Europe IMHO.

 

[Pattylt]

That’s not happening in Europe IMHO.

I’m not sure of time between diagnosis and surgery in socialized healthcare societies but I strongly suggest that time imperative procedures are comparable to ours. Just because they have longer wait times for knee surgery doesn’t mean they have long wait times for time urgent ones. I had knee replacement surgery and I guarantee that it wasn’t within days of the decision…I believe it was over two months…closer to three! And yes, I was in terrible pain while waiting!

Many Americans go to Mexico for treatments not related to plastic surgery… I sometimes think it’s the gastric bypass capital of the West. Many go for radiation treatments, joint replacement and more…because they can not afford it in the US. Yes, it’s a money issue. When people are unable to access healthcare in America due to money, it’s healthcare that they can’t have. Personally, if someone needs…not just wants…healthcare and can not get it for any reason, I think something is wrong and we should certainly be able to fix it.

I don’t care if it’s universal healthcare or state healthcare but insurance healthcare has failed too many people and we’re better than that!

 

[blackforest]

I think the idea of going to places like Tijuana for cosmetic surgery is based almost solely on cost, as the procedures done there are purely elective.

What makes you think people are only going there for rhinoplasty and boob jobs?

Well-woman exams and dental care are just two basic reasons why Americans are flooding the border. Medical Tourism Is Booming in Mexico - Pacific Standard

Baja’s secretary of tourism says half a million people cross the border every month for doctor visits and trips to the dentist. And he’d like to see that figure double.

 

[VonDerTann]

Your article says people go for cost reasons…which is exactly what I said.

OK, so people go for cost. But as I’ve said, ad infinitum, free care, courtesy of the taxpayers, isn’t the solution, particularly as you’re now asking for dental care to be covered too. As I’ve also said, health insurance costs and quality of health care are 2 different things.

As an aside: the article quotes a lady who supposedly can’t afford a dentist (this isn’t spinal surgery) but she can afford to live in San Fran and also afford to travel to Mexico City? Sorry, I can’t accept that at face value.

 

[blackforest]

Your article says people go for cost reasons…which is exactly what I said.

Yet you conveniently alluded only to cosmetic surgery, as though people are only crossing the border for shallow reasons instead of vital health care.

LOL! Living in San Francisco wouldn’t leave you much money for the dentist!

And dentists are preventative care, not “spinal surgery.” Teeth aren’t just mouth decorations. They’re parts of the body that, when neglected, can adversely affect other parts of the body. But with its dysfunctional structure and over-inflated costs, our health care system removes the incentive to take personal responsibility for one’s health.

 

[VonDerTann]

You’re just being disagreeable to anything I say.

Some people select doctors who are quacks and who promise them miracle cures or psychic cures. People select
Doctors for lots of reasons, some better than others.

Great healthcare may not be cheap, but quality of anything is usually expensive,
And saddling taxpayers with anyone’s desired healthcare is IMHO not a good response.

Look, I could also respond, “Our health care is so good that it includes costly high-tech equipment much of the world can’t get, and because that is costly and because our medical schools are so good they charge high tuition and are very selective, some people want cheaper alternatives so they go to Tijuana dives where they can get treated by folks who can’t pass our high licensing standards.” I could say that.

Instead I’ll just have to say goodnight.