Is healthcare a right or a responsibility?

[EndTimes]

Is the pandemic going to kick start another universal healthcare debate? Some say it will. I’m curious how other Catholics respond to this question.

Debates? How about some responsible action?

It’s ironic how some of the major world players who’d often speak of an up and coming super-virus pandemic failed miserably in pandemic preparation…

Why shouldn’t the quest of anything “universal” be for all humans receiving help: come pandemic or high water? Such would be the way of all God-Fearing peoples.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Not for their desired treatment. If a person is depressed and suicidal, they have a mental illness. I’m not a doctor, but I suspect the proper treatment for mental illness/depression isn’t “give the person whatever they want by way of medical procedures.” I use “procedures” instead of care, because the procedures in that case are no longer “care” so much as they are enabling the sick, just as much as giving a drink to an alcoholic.

You are arguing against a straw man, not against anyone here.

No one is arguing the point you are arguing against, which is that people should be given whatever treatment they thing they want. But there are legitimate treatments for people who suffer from mental illness. There is no reason all of those treatments should be denied to someone for whom that treatment is indicated by objective standards, just because they cannot pay for them. And I’m not talking about any Cadillac treatment either. Some patient’s mental illness can be well-controlled by medication. Why not provide such medication to those who can’t afford it?

 

[VonDerTann]

StudentMI asked me a question and I answered him directly. I actually thought it was a very good question and I gave a sincere answer that I had to revise after a bit of thinking.

It appears you would like not only free health care but meds too. Last night someone wanted free dental care. How about free dinner and a movie while we’re at it?

When I’ve challenged free healthcare or defended US quality of care, I’ve gotten called out over the size of my paycheck and been told “I hope you never get sick!” I’ve seen the USA attacked and my attitude trashed as nationalistic. Somebody demanded I leave. As I regrettably observe it, under the veneer of “healthcare is a right,” the real position some are espousing comes off as “I’m jealous of people who maybe have more than me and I want free stuff!”

That’s the great thing about these debates: when they go long enough, we see people as they really are. Maybe we even see ourselves as WE really are.

Bye for now.

 

[jeannetherese]

A person who poses a danger to self or others may be institutionalized for assessment and, if shown to be in need, treated for mental health issues.
It runs counter to this tradition that, a woman who threatens suicide due to pregnancy is not assessed and treated for her mental health challenge, but instead, is supported in her desire to kill another.

 

[Anrakyr]

It appears you would like not only free health care but meds too. Last night someone wanted free dental care. How about free dinner and a movie while we’re at it?

“I’m jealous of people who maybe have more than me and I want free stuff!”

That’s the great thing about these debates: when they go long enough, we see people as they really are. Maybe we even see ourselves as WE really are.

Indeed we do.
I put forward a point that those hovering around the poverty line can’t afford to get sick. At all. Be it for treatment or the time off work, often both.
Many people cross borders to get medication. Others get trapped in the cracks out of network then saddled with a bill they can never pay. Still more find themselves struggling with long term care and often released at home with aspirin and a pat on the back.

These are American problems. No other devolped country has these problems because they have universal healthcare. We have other problems sure, longer waits and sometimes bureaucracy if this get complicated but no one is turned away.
I don’t sit in a hospital bed worried im not going to get help and afford it. I worry about time off work or ya know the actual reason I’m there.

You can play this off as true colours but here is the simple fact; people should be able to be treated and recover in peace. Not worry if or how much that will cost.

There’s my true colours, they don’t require a dinner and show either.

 

[blackforest]

But everyone thinks their own heathcare is needed. And you know as well as I do that every bit of healthcare becomes “needed” when the patient says, “I’m depressed and I’ll take my life unless I get the healthcare I want.”

If someone really is suicidal because they can’t get a free nose job, do they get the nose job courtesy of the taxpayers?

In these cases, either the the person is truly suicidal and needs professional help . . . or the person is quite mentally disturbed and needs professional help. Either way, qualified professionals take these cases seriously.

Last night someone wanted free dental care. How about free dinner and a movie while we’re at it?

How on earth is dental care the equivalent of a taxpayer-funded night out?
Are you aware of the health consequences of foregoing dental care?

As I regrettably observe it, under the veneer of “healthcare is a right,” the real position some are espousing comes off as “I’m jealous of people who maybe have more than me and I want free stuff!”

People need health care to lead healthy lives and sometimes just to live, notwithstanding your accusations of their jealousy.

 

[EndTimes]

No humans should be denied health care…

 

[Sarcelle]

Most citizens of those countries with national healthcare systems are fine with paying taxes to cover the healthcare of others.

I wouldn’t call it coerced.

In the US it’s different. That’s fine but then those that are against nationalized healthcare also say that charity should work for those who can’t afford healthcare. Well are those who say charity is the way to go doing enough? The number of bankruptcies due to medical reasons is a damning indication that charity isn’t enough.

I would also like to see medical costs be more transparent. A coworker of mine, in his twenties, suffered from a cardiac arrhythmia, passed out and rushed to the hospital. Weeks later he was slapped with a $100,000 bill. Why so expensive? Why all the mystery surrounding medical bills?

Our healthcare system is broken. We could start with fixing the mysterious workings of insurance companies. No one should wake up in an emergency room and be slapped with an astronomical bill.

Ridiculous!

 

[Hodos]

Most citizens of those countries with national healthcare systems are fine with paying taxes to cover the healthcare of others.

Which is fine, but then we aren’t talking about healthcare as a right, but as a subsidized good or service. There is a difference. This goes back to my other point, calling healthcare a right essentially attempts to avoid having to answer the question on whether socialized medicine is the most efficient means of delivering the service of healthcare. I am fine with having THAT conversation. I am not fine with making an a priori statement that healthcare is a right in a dishonest attempt to avoid the debate.

 

[upant]

hmm…
lost wages…

https://canadafreepress.com/article/medical-wait-times-cost-canadian-patients-more-than-2-billion-in-lost-

 

[VonDerTann]

As I keep saying – health care and health care insurance are totally different animals.

The real question I’m curious to see, if you know, is what your coworker friend actually paid on the $100k bill. For insured people, I believe the hospital is only allowed to bill for whatever the insurance agrees to pay, and the hospital’s recovery is limited to that. If the person has no insurance, that’s not the case - but the hospital doesn’t expect full payment either. Is this a good situation? No. But is it something that should be replaced by socialized medicine? No.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’ll be happy with more transparent pricing when it comes to medical procedures.

Advocating for that does not mean I am for socialized medicine.

 

[Sarcelle]

the person has no insurance, that’s not the case - but the hospital doesn’t expect full payment either. Is this a good situation? No.

You sure the hospital does not expect full payment? It’s more likely the hospital will demand full payment and set the collectors against the individual.

Bankruptcy due to medical bills is a reality.

 

[TMC]

But is it something that should be replaced by socialized medicine? No.

Advocating for that does not mean I am for socialized medicine.

I think the term “socialized medicine” is often used in a misleading way to suggest that providing healthcare is the same thing as socialism. It is not. Do we have “socialized police protection,” “socialized fire departments,” and “socialized military services”? Just because something is provided or enable by the government does not make it socialism.

 

[Sarcelle]

It’s a scare tactic because socialism equals evil in the minds of some.

However I wouldn’t trust the government to run healthcare any better than the predatory insurance companies.

Honestly, I am at a loss on what can be done to make it better.

People suggest charity, but with the continuing loss of Catholic hospitals, this clearly isn’t enough.

 

[TMC]

It’s a scare tactic because socialism equals evil.

However I wouldn’t trust the government to run healthcare any better than the predatory insurance companies.

Honestly, I am at a loss on what can be done to make it better.

Fortunately, those are not the only two choices. The rest of the developed world does this. Some do it better than others, some use government employed doctors, others use public-private systems. ALL of them work better than our system, and we can look at each of those systems and figure out what works best for the US.

What we know is that our current system has some of the best doctors and hospitals in the world, but delivers some of the worst health outcomes. We can do better. The reason we don’t is that a handful of powerful interests are making tons of money in our broken system. There is no philosophical or economic reason it can’t be done, if we can overcome the entrenched political and financial interests that support the current system.

 

[VonDerTann]

EVERY “developed nation’s” health system “works better that [the US’s] system”?

–Yeah, I’m calling bunk on that.

Would that include, say, China? Would you like to go there for your treatment? Usually, “the rest of the world’s healthcare is better” is code for “I like Europe’s because it’s free!”

As I keep writing, and as no one can come up with an answer to, if the US healthcare system is so bad, why do so many people from around the world come here to enjoy it’s fruits?

I notice you admit our system has “some of the best doctors and hospitals in the world…” OK, you’re correct, if maybe a bit underselling it: The US has by far the best doctors and hospitals in the world. But even if you’re correct (and I don’t at all concede you are) it doesn’t follow that we have “bad outcomes” because of that system.

Bad outcomes? Sometimes the patient dies. That doesn’t mean the healthcare was bad.

Invariably, criticism of US healthcare boils down to “I want it free!” Worse, that position, when really investigated, almost always comes down to “I want the BEST…AND I want it FREE, TOO!”

 

[VonDerTann]

Would you feel better if I didn’t call it “socialized medicine”?

I can call it “free health care;” “taxpayer-funded care,” etc., if it’d make you feel better. Or would that be a scare tactic too?

Isn’t it always a so-called “scare tactic” to say “X is bad”?

 

[TMC]

EVERY "developed nation’s health system “works better that [the US’s] system”?

–Yeah, I’m calling bunk on that.

Yes, I would say EVERY. Which one is not?

Would that include, say, China? Would you like to go there for your treatment? Usually, “the rest of the world’s healthcare is better” is code for “I like Europe’s because it’s free!”

If you want to include China, I would probably agree that China’s health system is not better than the US, but I am not really sure about that.

Invariably, criticism of US healthcare boils down to “I want it free!” Worse, that position, when really investigated, almost always comes down to “I want the BEST … AND I want it FREE, TOO !”

Healthcare will never be “free,” someone has to pay for it, just like someone has to pay for police protection and the military. What I want is a healthcare system that results in good health outcomes for the populace. Why is that bad? Is it OK that a system you say is “by far the best” does not come even close to the best when it comes to actual health outcomes?

 

[VonDerTann]

I’ve advocated over and over again: The US has the best health care system in the world, bar none and hands down.

And to reiterate, you can quote me all you want, yet the portion of my posts that never get quoted or answered is: If US care is so bad, why do so many people around the world want to come here to get it?

Crickets…