Is healthcare a right or a responsibility?

[VanitasVanitatum]

I’ve advocated over and over again: The US has the best health care system in the world, bar none and hands down.

That’s because people aren’t disputing that, they are talking about prices.

 

[Godfollower]

And to reiterate, you can quote me all you want, yet the portion of my posts that never get quoted or answered is: If US care is so bad, why do so many people around the world want to come here to get it?

Crickets…

If you want to call a given nation’s health care system better or worse than another’s you have to develop criteria to judge them by. For instance, if you want to judge countries solely on rate of mortality amenable to healthcare (a measure of the rates of death considered preventable by timely and effective care), then the United States ranks behind the Netherlands, Australia, Sweden, Japan, Austria, Germany, France, and the United Kingdom. If you want to judge based on which country has reduced the burden of disease on its populace the best, then the United States ranks behind Japan, Switzerland, France, Sweden, Austria, the Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Belgium, Germany, and the United Kingdom. And so on.

You choose to rank countries on the vaunted Where-do-the-rich-people-go-when-they-need-healthcare-they-can’t-get-in-their-home-country index. I can’t find any data actually measuring that number, but I’ll concede for the sake of argument that there are in fact a lot of rich people who come here for treatments they can’t get in their home countries; and I’ll concede that, every now and then, some charity or other arranges for something similar for a few poor people.

The problem is that your premise is flawed. Of course the rich outliers come here; they’re angling for the one percent who can get the cutting edge cures. But the real question if you want to know which country’s health care system is best is: how does it take care of all its citizenry. And, by that standard, we have a long way to go. Heck, if all you measure is who prevents medical, medication, and lab errors, the United States is worse than Germany, France, the Netherlands, Australia, The U.K., Switzerland, Canada, and Sweden — Which your globetrotting patients don’t care about, because medical errors occur less frequently for rich patients than for poor ones.

Bottom line: I love this country and have a health care background. But to claim blindly that we’re the best health-care system in the world is demonstrably incorrect.

 

[VonDerTann]

No health care system is perfect.

Any system of delivering goods or products can always be scrapped and replaced with something worse.

If we have taxpayer-funded healthcare so that everyone can afford it, we will replace “some few can’t pay and thus rely on charity care” with larger problems - longer wait times; rationed care; death panels; lack of specialists; etc. We will also then get, “I must have that tummy tuck! . . ,” and similar insanity.

Scrapping America’s great health care delivery system - which is imperfect, but very good, so good many folks come here to get it – and replacing it with a European-style “it’s all free but it’s often second rate”-system - just makes health care worse for everyone collectively.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

we will replace “some few can’t pay and thus rely on charity care” with larger problems - longer wait times; rationed care; death panels; lack of specialists; etc. We will also then get, “I must have that tummy tuck! . . ,” and similar insanity.

I’m not sure one is worse than the other.

 

[StudentMI]

If you haven’t read John Goodman from the Independent Institute on health care, I recommend his work. He has some good ideas about changing the system for the better.

 

[blackforest]

1. Surveys are studies. 2. I also included multiple links detailing our egregiously high maternal and infant mortality rates.

did Jesus heal everyone?

He could have!

Did Jesus ever turn anyone away, saying that He didn’t “owe” anybody his “labor?”

Which plan are you championing?

This, but without abortion coverage. Physicians' Proposal - PNHP

A single-payer NHP would cover every American for all medically necessary services, including mental health, rehabilitation and dental care, without copayments or deductibles. Covered services would be determined by boards of experts and patient advocates; ineffective services would be excluded from coverage.

Patient cost sharing blocks access to vital care (e.g. by delaying care for patients with myocardial infarction); reduces adherence to medications; and selectively burdens the sick and the poor.5,15-19 Moreover, cost sharing has proven ineffective at containing system-wide costs, in part because collecting and tracking co-payments and deductibles entails substantial administrative effort and cost.

The NHP would, like Medicare, ban private insurance that duplicates the public coverage to forestall the emergence of a two-tiered health care system, in which insurers would compete by lobbying to underfund the public part of the system. Moreover, in the NHP, as in Medicare, inclusion of the affluent would serve as an important guarantor of adequate coverage.

 

[upant]

Did Jesus ever turn anyone away, saying that He didn’t “owe” anybody his “labor?”

Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: “Don’t take the road leading to other nations and don’t enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This, but without abortion coverage.

this isn’t defining what’s covered and you won’t get it without abortion. a major stopping point for many.

Covered services would be determined by boards of experts and patient advocates; ineffective services would be excluded from coverage.

you have to pass it, to see what’s covered, more government smoke and mirrors.

The NHP would, like Medicare, ban private insurance that duplicates the public coverage to forestall the emergence of a two-tiered health care system, in which insurers would compete by lobbying to underfund the public part of the system.

it also eliminates private plans

For-profit hospitals would be converted to nonprofit governance and their owners compensated for past investments.

the NHP and organizations representing the practitioners would negotiate a simple, binding fee schedule

you say it isn’t socialized because the doctors don’t work for the government but that is also smoke and mirrors because the government controls everything

I think the difference is the level of trust in the government. if you trust the government, you would like the single-payer and if you see how the government runs everything and thinks it does a terrible job, you don’t want it.

 

[jeannetherese]

I think the difference is the level of trust in the government. if you trust the government, you would like the single-payer and if you see how the government runs everything and thinks it does a terrible job, you don’t want it.

Not to mention that every health care system involves rationing. that panel of experts determining which services get covered is going to be doing a cost benefit analysis on every service and determining which get jettisoned and which get limited (and limited to whom).
There will be losers in such a system and people do not want to acknowledge this reality. Any health care system will operate with a finite amount of funding and a finite amount of services offered. What one group calls a panel of experts another will call a death panel-they are the group deciding the limitations on services which, ultimately do become life extending or ending limitations.

 

[blackforest]

I think the difference is the level of trust in the government.

Or is the difference the level of trust in private and unaccountable middle-men corporations making your health care decisions decisions not just for you, but also for your doctor?

 

[new-kirishitan]

Did you say American healthcare is “very good”?? After living in 4 countries and received medical in all of them, I would only rate American healthcare’s performance as “fair” at the very most. To make it easier to understand, here’s my summary:

USA: Extremely expensive (insured or uninsured) and extremely slow, with many inexperienced physicians, despite being the world’s leader in medical research. Legalized corruption also exists. Comfortable healthcare environment (hospital and clinic environment).

UK: Free but could be very slow too, relatively comfortable healthcare environment. Dental care is not free, however.

China: Very speedy for common illnesses, but extremely CORRUPT. Quite expensive based on local income level due to corruption. Hospital environment is bad. Extremely overworked medical staff, with doctors seeing like 200 patients per day. Service quality isn’t always reliable. Some doctors would extort their patients by demanding bribe halfway into surgery.

Japan: Best I’ve ever seen. Efficient service, comfortable healthcare environment. Not free but very affordable for most illnesses, and for severe illness it becomes free. Dental care is also covered.

 

[Ralph]

Thank you. I also worked on the healthcare system for thirty years. We are far,far from perfect. We are very expensive and our outcomes don’t reflect it. I do think healthcare is a right to give answer to the thread title.

 

[Godfollower]

I once got sick (nothing critical, just enough that I did need to see a doctor) while on vacation in France. A doctor made a house call to visit me (remember when doctors in the U.S. made house calls? Me neither) for the grand cost of 200 francs (yes, I know I’m dating myself there). The five medicines she prescribed me cost another 200 francs at the local pharmacy. Total cost for a doctor’s exam and medicines: the local equivalent of approximately US$70. And it worked. I wasn’t a member of any French health care plans, and I didn’t have to get some insurance adjuster’s permission for a health-care remedy. I saw a doctor and got some medicine. Thank you France.

 

[jeannetherese]

Doctors still make house calls in the United States. This one is $99 per hour-not bad for an hour with a PhD.
The return of doctor house calls: Convenient, but at what cost?.

 

[new-kirishitan]

I recently had my employment physical done (a standard practice here in Japan) and the report says there’s something wrong with my liver function. So I was immediately booked to see a physician 15 minutes later at the other wing of the hospital, and he prescribed me with additional tests and a follow-up visit the next day since it was late in the afternoon already. So the blood test was done immediately afterwards and I was scheduled for an abdominal ultrasound the next morning, with the follow-up visit immediately afterwards to explain all the results. This altogether costed me 3960 yen, which is less than $40. Insurance was affordable too. I paid about $20 per month since I only worked part-time back then, while full-time employees on average pay about $200 per month. NO DEDUCTIBLES and NO ANNUAL LIMIT. Insurance covers 70% for most people, while children and senior citizens get 80%. For severe illnesses, the insurance will cover it 100%.

 

[blackforest]

Meanwhile, I owe $500 toward my well-woman visit - partially covered office visit, full out-of-pocket payment for labs. Nothing major, nothing serious. Just some basic tests to assure me that I don’t have diabetes or cervical cancer. But hey, at least it’s going toward my deductible.

Doctors still make house calls in the United States.

I’ve heard that some are so fed up with insurance that they’re going rogue. I’d totally be open to this idea. No medical insurance? No problem at direct pay primary care practice

 

[EndTimes]

Our healthcare system is broken. We could start with fixing the mysterious workings of insurance companies. No one should wake up in an emergency room and be slapped with an astronomical bill.

Those claiming to be Humanitarians actually care zilch for humans and all for Money?

_

 

[BT3241]

Its a right if you or a family member has a long term illness or illness runs in the family - it a responsibility if you and your family members are healthy.

 

[StudentMI]

Deregulation since the pandemic started has actually improved the industry a bit.

 

[Anrakyr]

Poverty is not a fate worse than death

In death you’re not feeling pain. You have no conserns to your well being and you aren’t made to toil or languish endlessly.

So much better is poverty.

For instance, if you want to judge countries solely on rate of mortality amenable to healthcare (a measure of the rates of death considered preventable by timely and effective care), then the United States ranks behind the Netherlands, Australia, Sweden, Japan, Austria, Germany, France, and the United Kingdom

That should end the thread right there.
Technology means nothing if no one can use it.

 

[jeannetherese]

Interesting. If you’re following the worldometer coronavirus statistics, you’ll see that, at present, the U.S. is situated in the center of a ranking of those countries by mortality per million. 273
The countries following it include the Netherlands 332; Sweden 365; France 423; and the U.K. 511.