Is healthcare a right or a responsibility?

[VonDerTann]

What I want is a healthcare system that results in good health outcomes for the populace.

–And yet after 460+ posts, no one has ever shown that the US isn’t delivering that.

You’re correct about health care never being free. Someone does have to pay for it! I’d rather we all pay for our own (including via insurance) than I pay for yours.

 

[TMC]

And to reiterate, you can quote me all you want, yet the portion of my posts that never get quoted or answered is: If US care is so bad, why do so many people around the world want to come here to get it?

You know the answer to this question. For those than can afford it, parts of the US system are very good. But most cannot afford it, either here or elsewhere. You are aware that Americans sometimes go to other countries for healthcare?

 

[TMC]

–And yet after 460+ posts, no one has ever shown that the US isn’t delivering that.

You’re correct about health care never being free. Someone does have to pay for it! I’d rather we all pay for our own (including via insurance) than I pay for yours.

This depends on what you think is important in a healthcare system. It is indisputable that the US is not at or near the top in many important measures - infant health and mortality for example. It is also indisputable that many Americans have no access to regular healthcare services.

If what you want from a system is one that delivers what you want IF you can afford it, then, yes, the US system is pretty good. In other words, if you think healthcare is simply a commercial good, like cars or consumer electronics, then the US is doing well. If you think that healthcare is more important and basic than that, like physical protection (police, fire, military) then we are not doing well.

At the end of the day, that is the real question. We agree as a society that some things are important enough that they should be provided to all, and paid for collectively - things like schooling, police, fire, and military protection. Is healthcare like that? Or should it be like buying a car?

 

[VonDerTann]

So now, your position has changed. It’s not “everywhere is better than the US.” Now (when challenged!) at least you admit “for those who can afford it,” “parts” of the US "systems are “very good.”

Well, at least we’re getting somewhere!

Invariably, criticism of US healthcare comes down to cost. This is circular: Cost doesn’t equal care. I can only say that so much. However, even cost-related challenges fail, because one can always trot out stories about “person X got a big bill and couldn’t pay it!”

But, by nature, that person invariably already got great care!

In life, 1) you get what you pay for, and 2) you have to pay first or at least be able to pay, first. Want to live in a nice neighborhood? OK, you pay more - and you have to buy the house first. Want a better car? Pay more, and buy first. Want a better lawyer or accountant? Pay more. Health care should be no different - if the alternative is “the care is free, courtesy of your tax dollars.”

Yes, Americans go elsewhere, for cosmetic procedures. If people want to get hacked up in Tijuana by “doctors who can’t become doctors in the US,” I can’t help that.

 

[TMC]

So now, your position has changed. It’s not “everywhere is better than the US.” Now (when challenged!) at least you admit “for those who can afford it,” “parts” of the US "systems are “very good.”

No, you are applying your definition of better. It is not “better,” to me, unless it is good for everyone.

Invariably, criticism of US healthcare comes down to cost. This is circular: Cost doesn’t equal care. I can only say that so much. However, even cost-related challenges fail, because one can always trot out stories about “person X got a big bill and couldn’t pay it!”

I don’t recall discussing relative cost.

In life, 1) you get what you pay for, and 2) you have to pay first or at least be able to pay, first. Want to live in a nice neighborhood? OK, you pay more - and you have to buy the house first. Want a better car? Pay more, and buy first. Want a better lawyer or accountant? Pay more. Health care should be no different - if the alternative is “the care is free, courtesy of your tax dollars.”

OK, so you are taking the position that healthcare is a consumer good, like cars. I would suggest that is the real point of disagreement between us. Do you take the same position for other things provided by the government? Why is healthcare like buying a car, but the other services provided by the government are not?

 

[Sarcelle]

As I keep writing, and as no one can come up with an answer to, if the US healthcare system is so bad, why do so many people from around the world come here to enjoy it’s fruits?

US healthcare is top notch and state of the art, if and only if , you can afford it.

I bet you those that come here for medical care can afford it.

There are too many of us, myself included, who cannot afford it.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’d rather we all pay for our own (including via insurance) than I pay for yours.

Yeah, I get that loud and clear.

What about those who can’t pay?

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes, Americans go elsewhere, for cosmetic procedures.

Not just cosmetic procedures.

I know people who have gone to India for cancer treatments.

 

[blackforest]

This goes back to my other point, calling healthcare a right essentially attempts to avoid having to answer the question on whether socialized medicine is the most efficient means of delivering the service of healthcare.

You are doing something called begging the question. People who refer to health care as a human right would of course advocate for a single-payer system. (Please note the correct term - socialized medicine is different from single-payer). You have not addressed that claim or rebutted that claim.

If you are correct and make a successful rebuttal and defend the claim that health care is purely a matter of personal responsibility, the current set-up of over-bloated corporate bureaucracy and overcharging people for health care might make sense. But we cannot have this discussion if you continue to evade the core question of this thread: Is health care a right or responsibility?

Nobody is avoiding the debate. They’re making a claim in a debate . . . one that you have not addressed yet.

 

[blackforest]

It’s called single-payer health care. Please look up the difference between socialized and single-payer systems.

I’ve advocated over and over again: The US has the best health care system in the world, bar none and hands down.

But . . . . . . I refuted you upthread by posting data indicating extremely poor health outcomes. Did you look at those links or dismiss and ignore them? Speaking of crickets . . .

Someone does have to pay for it! I’d rather we all pay for our own (including via insurance) than I pay for yours.

Are you aware of how insurance companies work? You’re not paying for just your own health care. You’re paying for that of other people in the insurance pool.

 

[upant]

I refuted you upthread by posting data indicating extremely poor health outcomes.

how does our gov run VA care compare to our private healthcare?

that is the comparison that needs to be made, if you want the gov to run the show

 

[Hodos]

But we cannot have this discussion if you continue to evade the core question of this thread: Is health care a right or responsibility?

No, I addressed the question in my original post. Healthcare is not a right because I do not have a right to someone else’s labor any more than they have a right to mine. I addressed the claim at the outset. My point is that the reason people typically make the claim that healthcare is a right is an attempt to avoid the discussion on whether socialized medicine (single payer is socialized medicine as all healthcare providers essentially become employees of the state) is an efficient or desirable means of delivering healthcare services. They come to the discussion with a pre-conceived notion of what they want, and then try to paint any discussion of other options as morally evil. The problem is when you actually look at the premise that healthcare is a right, you see that the premise itself is evil. I don’t have the right to steal from my neighbor, whether it is medical supplies, pharmaceutical drugs, or labor. If I want something of value from my neighbor, I owe them something valuable in exchange. If my neighbor chooses to gift me something such as their labor, free of charge, that is grace, but it isn’t my right.

 

[jeannetherese]

But most cannot afford it, either here or elsewhere.

Are you arguing that over 50 % of the U.S. population cannot afford healthcare?
How are you defining healthcare and what sources are you using for your statistics?

 

[blackforest]

Healthcare is not a right because I do not have a right to someone else’s labor any more than they have a right to mine.

I wonder how this would look in meme form.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[blackforest]

My point is that the reason people typically make the claim that healthcare is a right is an attempt to avoid the discussion on whether socialized medicine (single payer is socialized medicine as all healthcare providers essentially become employees of the state) is an efficient or desirable means of delivering healthcare services.

This is inaccurate and incorrect. Under socialized medicine, such as in France, health care providers are government employees. Under single-payer health care, health care workers remain privately employed while claims are filed through the state. In fact, many countries with single-payer health care still give you the option of seeking private medical care and coverage.

The problem is when you actually look at the premise that healthcare is a right, you see that the premise itself is evil.

This actually sounds like the pro-choice argument for abortion. They often say that the fetus doesn’t have the “right” to “use” a woman’s body against her will. Does any one have any right to any kind of altruism? Or am I justified in ignoring somebody dying a preventable death because they don’t have a “right” to my labor?

If I want something of value from my neighbor, I owe them something valuable in exchange. If my neighbor chooses to gift me something such as their labor, free of charge, that is grace, but it isn’t my right.

But as foes of single-payer health care are so quick to remind the rest of the world, the health care wouldn’t be free. Health care providers would still be justly compensated for their labor.

 

[VonDerTann]

You refuted nothing. You quoted, IIRC, some gussied-up patient care surveys turned into one or more larger surveys.

 

[Sarcelle]

So let’s say healthcare isn’t either right or privilege but a service.

A commodity.

Why is pricing or the rules for pricing so convoluted and non-transparent?

If I were to hire a landscaper or a plumber, they quote me their rates, I agree, they provide their services and I pay them. Cut and dried.

So why does it not apply to healthcare? What makes it so special? Why can’t it be like other services?

If I get hit by a car, get rushed to the hospital, and then months later receive an outrageous bill, I’d probably be better off literally dead than risk bankruptcy.

 

[jeannetherese]

If I get hit by a car, get rushed to the hospital, and then months later receive an outrageous bill, I’d probably be better off literally dead than risk bankruptcy.

People do come out the other end of bankruptcy. Life is still worth living. Poverty is not a fate worse than death. If it were, then some might be trying to justify killing the poor in order to save them.

 

[Sarcelle]

That’s beside the point.

My main rant was against the non-transparency of medical services.

Want to treat it as a service and not a right, then treat it as a service.

No hidden costs, no hidden unpleasant surprises. Customer and supplier mutually agreeing to an agreed price.

If customer does not agree, he or she is free to shop around. You know, like a free market.

In fact get rid of insurance companies, and healthcare providers and patients come to an agreement with regards to prices. Make it more like a free market.

 

[upant]

I wonder how this would look in meme form.

not like that

did Jesus heal everyone?

He could have!

Under single-payer health care, health care workers remain privately employed while claims are filed through the state. In fact, many countries with single-payer health care still give you the option of seeking private medical care and coverage.

but what has been proposed for the US?

everything under the sun, including plans with no private insurance able to cover what the national plan covers.

Which plan are you championing?

just saying single-payer can mean a number of different ideas

again, define healthcare?