Is heaven too good to be true?

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GEddie said:
It is an assumption that movement and activity requires our sense of collinear time.

Collinear time is an artifact of the entropy of material substance, specifically the material of our natural bodies.

But those in Heaven have spiritual bodies, therefore, life there is not limited by collinear time or the lack thereof.

ICXC NIKA
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This is a brilliant answer! :clapping:

It is impossible in our concept and experience of time to imagine what life without this construct will be like. It could be compared to any of us trying to explain a universe that was not 3-dimensional, but physically 4 or 5 dimensional.

Gertie
 
PumpkinCookie said:
This is an interesting question. I wouldn’t say the RC conception of heaven is “too good to be true” so much as “intellectually incoherent.” This doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist or “isn’t true” but that we can’t really say too much about it. However, if you would like a sophistical argument:
  1. Everything that achieves its purpose can be called “happy”
  2. The purpose of human beings is life in heaven
    Therefore,
  3. Those human beings living in heaven will be happy
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Is it intellectually incoherent to believe the main purpose of life is to love others and when we fulfil that purpose we are happy because in heaven they also love us and we are all united in peace and harmony?
 
ChibiViolet said:
I don’t believe that Heaven is too good to be true, but I often wonder if it would be too good to be true for me to get there…I’m very impulsive about committing certain mortal sins and commit them a lot…it’s not at all helped by the fact that most of the time I’m feeling emotionally apathetic or some very vague feeling I can hardly perceive. On an intellectual and spiritual level I care though…
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They are unlikely to be mortal if they are truly impulsive. Feelings and emotions are notoriously deceptive and not an reliable criterion of our degree of sanctity. The fact that you care together with the fact that many saints have endured Dark Night of the Soul should make you optimistic!
 
Pallas_Athene said:
If there is no time in heaven (or in hell), then existence there is “stasis”. No change, no thinking, no feelings, no awareness, nothing. Just frozen, eternally, forever. Does not sound “too good” at all.
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Only materialists believe we experience the whole of reality in this world. Truth, goodness, freedom, justice and love are independent of time and space. Nor can they be explained as products of physical energy. Nor can the mind be explained in terms of the brain. In fact our primary datum and sole certainty is that we are thinking, perceiving, feeling and making decisions. We** infer** the existence of everything else - including time and space. The most significant form of energy is intangible, rational, moral, conscious and purposeful - and it transcends matter which by itself is valueless, purposeless and meaningless. Persons are infinitely more original, creative and dynamic than all the mindless objects in the entire universe…
 
tonyrey said:
Why not? As far as I know there aren’t any return tickets.🙂
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I was being a shade silly. Can’t a person be just a shade silly occasionally. There needs to be a little joy in this life so that we will desire it in the next. 😃
 
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GEddie:
It is an assumption that movement and activity requires our sense of collinear time.
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It is a basic metaphysical principle. Any movement or activity indicates a change, and change indicates a before and an after. What else would be a difference between “action” and “inaction”? You may speak of “spiritual bodies” (whatever those might be), but the metaphysical concept of “movement” and “change” do not rely on the material underpinning. Besides, it is not a wise idea to bring forth theological concepts into a philosophical discussion, especially if those theological concepts are meaningless to others.

Without some kind of time there can only be a frozen, unchanging existence.
 
Pallas_Athene said:
It is a basic metaphysical principle. Any movement or activity indicates a change, and change indicates a before and an after. What else would be a difference between “action” and “inaction”? You may speak of “spiritual bodies” (whatever those might be), but the metaphysical concept of “movement” and “change” do not rely on the material underpinning. Besides, it is not a wise idea to bring forth theological concepts into a philosophical discussion, especially if those theological concepts are meaningless to others.

Without some kind of time there can only be a frozen, unchanging existence.
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“Some kind of time” does not necessarily imply our **current sense **of temporal collinearity.

I am not a philosopher nor a Thomist. When I say movement, I am not using the term in a “metaphysical sense” what ever the heqq that is, but as any, non-philosophical, embodied human being would.

ICXC NIKA
 
Pallas_Athene said:
It is a basic metaphysical principle. Any movement or activity indicates a change, and change indicates a before and an after. What else would be a difference between “action” and “inaction”? You may speak of “spiritual bodies” (whatever those might be), but the metaphysical concept of “movement” and “change” do not rely on the material underpinning. Besides, it is not a wise idea to bring forth theological concepts into a philosophical discussion, especially if those theological concepts are meaningless to others.

Without some kind of time there can only be a frozen, unchanging existence.
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I thought heaven and eternity were the topic under discussion.
 
Mary_Estelle said:
I was being a shade silly. Can’t a person be just a shade silly occasionally. There needs to be a little joy in this life so that we will desire it in the next. 😃
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I intended my remark to be humorous not critical. That’s why I put a smilie. In fact I was being silly! 😊
 
Pallas_Athene said:
Whatever you believe has no bearing on reality. But, of course you are welcome to believe anything whatever makes you feel happy. Nevertheless, it might be to your advantage to imagine that you are about to take a step, and time “freezes” in mid-step. Your foot will never reach the ground. Your whole action is frozen. There is no change at all. That would be a timeless existence.
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Of course there is time in heaven. Everyone there is waiting for their glorified bodies to join them. This will happen when the bodies are resurrected on the Day of Judgment.

Since that has not happened yet (I assume), there must be time in heaven were change takes place - having no bodies and then having glorified ones.

Once they get the bodies, life in heaven will be even more blissful than it is now (if that is possible).
 
tonyrey said:
Is it intellectually incoherent to believe the main purpose of life is to love others and when we fulfil that purpose we are happy because in heaven they also love us and we are all united in peace and harmony?
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No not at all! It is intellectually incoherent to insist that bodies can exist in a “timeless” “spiritual” “glorified” state. There may be explanations, but I haven’t seen one yet.
 
PumpkinCookie said:
No not at all! It is intellectually incoherent to insist that bodies can exist in a “timeless” “spiritual” “glorified” state. There may be explanations, but I haven’t seen one yet.
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If God is capable of creating physical bodies surely He can resurrect them without their physical limitations. If we can’t explain how matter is created it’s not surprising we can’t explain how it’s transformed but it doesn’t follow that it’s impossible. There is no logical inconsistency in the concepts of timelessness, spirit and glorification unless one is a materialist.
 
. . . Many weak and foolish people, say, “See what a good life that man enjoys! He is so rich, so great, so powerful, so distinguished!” But raise your eyes to the riches of Heaven, and you will see that all the riches of this world are as nothing. All are uncertain and even burdensome, for they are never enjoyed without some anxiety or fear. The happiness of man does not consist in abundance of this world’s goods, for a modest share is sufficient for him. The more spiritual a man desires to become, the more bitter does this present life grow for him, for he sees and realizes more clearly the defects and corruptions of human nature. For to eat and drink, to wake and sleep, to rest and labour, and to be subject to all the necessities of nature is a great trouble and affliction to the devout man, who would rather be released and set free from all sin.

The inner life of man is greatly hindered in this life by the needs of the body. Thus, the Prophet devoutly prays that he may be set free from them, saying, “Lord, deliver me from my necessities!” Woe to those who refuse to recognize their own wretchedness, and doubly woe to those who love this miserable and corruptible life! For some cling so closely to it, that although by working or begging they can hardly win the bare necessities, they would yet be willing to live here forever if it were possible, caring nothing for the Kingdom of God.

How crazy and lacking in faith are such people, who are so deeply engrossed in earthly affairs that they care for nothing but material things! These unhappy wretches will at length know to their sorrow how vile and worthless were the things that they loved. But the Saints of God and all the devoted friends of Christ paid little heed to bodily pleasures, nor to prosperity in this life, for all their hopes and aims were directed towards those good things that are eternal. Their whole desire raised them upward to things eternal and invisible, so that the love of things visible could not drag them down. My brother, do not lose hope of progress in the spiritual life; you have still time and opportunity . . .
–The Imitation of Christ, Book 1, Chapter 22 Thomas a Kempis
 
If not everyone makes it there (like loved ones that we care for greatly), then its not good.

Although I understand St. Thomas Aquinas has the completely opposite opinion of mine, that seeing the suffering of those in hell is what makes heaven so good.
 
SonOfMan said:
If not everyone makes it there (like loved ones that we care for greatly), then its not good. Although I understand St. Thomas Aquinas has the completely opposite opinion of mine, that seeing the suffering of those in hell is what makes heaven so good.
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St Thomas stated that it is evil to enjoy the suffering of others but the thought of Hell makes us appreciate Heaven all the more. If Hell didn’t exist we would take going to Heaven for granted
 
SonOfMan said:
If not everyone makes it there (like loved ones that we care for greatly), then its not good.

Although I understand St. Thomas Aquinas has the completely opposite opinion of mine, that seeing the suffering of those in hell is what makes heaven so good.
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I used to worry about this also… if everyone I love and care for does not make it to Heaven, then how can I be happy and satisfied in Heaven without them… BUT then I’ve read that Our Lady once said that some folks end up going to Hell instead of Purgatory simply because there was no one praying for them…

To me that means we need to keep those we care about always in our prayers. So at least if our friends can not make it to Heaven directly, they can get to Purgatory and make it there eventually.

Although I’ve met some pretty rotten folks, I can’t remember anyone that I would think deserved to go down below. I’m sure such folks exists and I hope I never come across any of them.
 
Back on topic, I’ve often wondered if having everything go perfectly go our way might be too boring… there was a Twilight ZOne episode, where a gangster died and thought he went to paradise, everything he did went right, he always won at the gambling tables, beautiful girls hung around him… finally he go so bored with winning that he asked if he was in the right place… The reply was what makes him think he was in Heaven.

There is such a thing as too much of a good thing. Imagine eating as much ice cream as you can,… after the third or fourth scoop, it is more like a punishment than a pleasure… I once tried this with blueberry pie, after the second slice, I did not want to eat blueberry pie ever again…

My guess is that Heaven will be just right… This world and this universe is just too awesome to be true, so given how God could do some much in a physical universe, I fully expect that He would be able to make an even greater spiritual universe,
 
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