Is Homophobia a sin?

[Joie_de_Vivre]

You are equivocating dangerously here. When people speak of “homophobic hatred,” they are typically talking about negative emotions, and the “love” which counters it is typically understood to be positive emotions. But the “love” we are commanded to exhibit, i.e., toward God and to our neighbors, is not about emotion at all. It is an act of the will, of willing the good of our neighbor for their own sake, and willing the will of God.

So, note, you can in fact hate sodomites in the sense of experiencing negative emotions toward them. But this is not contrary to the law of charity if it is accompanied by prayer for their repentance, conversion, and salvation, and other acts of charity.

And note, too, that the hatred that is forbidden us is forbidden of us toward everyone, not merely sodomites. What use, then, is there in talking about “homophobia” at all?

Heterosexuals manage to not hate heterosexual sodomites so why are they unable to not hate homosexual sodomites?

 

[friardchips]

You are equivocating dangerously here. When people speak of “homophobic hatred,” they are typically talking about negative emotions, and the “love” which counters it is typically understood to be positive emotions. But the “love” we are commanded to exhibit, i.e., toward God and to our neighbors, is not about emotion at all. It is an act of the will, of willing the good of our neighbor for their own sake, and willing the will of God.

So, note, you can in fact hate sodomites in the sense of experiencing negative emotions toward them. But this is not contrary to the law of charity if it is accompanied by prayer for their repentance, conversion, and salvation, and other acts of charity.

I think you are mistaken here. For example, in one of the psalms it reads: “And I hate them with a perfect hate, and they are foes to me”. (not about sodomites but about foes to God). But Jesus completed the Old Testament with Himself. And he quite clearly said to not only “love your neighbour as yourself”, but also to “love your enemy”.

• this means to be concerned for not to hate. To correct with love, never to hate.

So I think there is a world of difference between hating the sin but loving the sinner as there is between judging the sin but not judging the sinner. If you ‘hate’ anyone then no matter how the word ‘hate’ is twisted to fit another meaning, ‘hate’ means ‘hate’!

So I think there is also a world of difference between hate for someone because they are a certain way inclined - which you have stated, maybe loosely - and hate for the sinful acts they possibly commit. I think there is a huge difference between hating their ‘preference’, to one’s reaction being one of awkward revulsion if gay people behave touch-feely in front of you. Hate for any person is never okay. You can feel annoyed, righteously annoyed, even, but never hate. The annoyance, if compassionate must be turned into love, or sadness even, for the wellbeing of the people involved. And one’s reaction should never be rude or hateful.

I think maybe when you speak of ‘hate’ you mean it loosely (?) but I don’t think it is good to use a word loosely like that because people have to co-exist on this planet and for the sake of clarity, and people’s sensitivities, it is better not to do or say anything that can be mistaken as something worse.

And note, too, that the hatred that is forbidden us is forbidden of us toward everyone, not merely sodomites. What use, then, is there in talking about “homophobia” at all?

Not sure this makes any reasonable sense (?)

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

A homophobe is a person who hates or ir disgusted by people who are attracted to same sex. We are commanded to love. by not loving, we are breaking one of the most important commandments.

Hate and disgust are not synonyms.

We can love someone by praying for them and hoping they will return to morality and at the same time be repulsed by their actions.

.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Heterosexuals manage to not hate heterosexual sodomites so why are they unable to not hate homosexual sodomites?

I would suggest that you have a burden of proof for the assertion that “heterosexuals manage to not hate heterosexual sodomites”, a burden which you may find exceedingly difficult to meet.

.

 

[friardchips]

…in fact, your whole argument was based on the fact that you summed up ‘homophobic hatred’ as just ‘negative emotions’.

Really.

Then you back this up with talk of love as if this somehow satisfactorily concludes your own devised argument.

Hate is a fairly extreme word.

Look at Syria and Iraq as an example. I absolutely rage at the sick and despicable atrocities there. I can absolutely hate the acts of which have happened but I can never hate the people (though really difficult). To hate someone is to condemn someone in one’s heart. We are not God. So we hate their acts and their behaviour. For gay people I can hate the thought of certain acts and be a bit repulsed if I see something before me that we understand to be disordered but can never hate the people and cannot judge their character because we don’t know why they are doing this, how deep-rooted they feel what they feel, how disordered is the inclination etc…we don’t know the why behind it, although we can make general assessments.

Doesn’t anyone feel here as if just talking about this makes you feel self-righteous and a bit of a Pharisee? If so, I think there is good reason for this and we should dwell on that.

Find the plank and take it out.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Sado masochism is not an orientation, it is a fetish.

Diagnostic criteria for 302.84 Sexual Sadism

Diagnostic criteria for 302.83 Sexual Masochism

.

 

[friardchips]

…Furthermore, taking Iraq and Syria as an extreme example, say we were to go into Iraq and Syria and would inevitably have to kill men. This act of killing would not be because we oppose their belief, or because we hate them individually; rather, we would do this because their opposition to the wellbeing of others and opposition to ‘life’ and ‘the Truth’ and ‘freedom’ is at a level of murder, mass murder - an unjust aggressor, but not because we want to kill men because we ‘hate’ them, but instead wish to stop their behaviour and help the victims. But if soldiers went into these places ‘hating’ the enemy, we would have a lot more casualties and a big problem on our hands. It all relates to the love we hold in our hearts.

 

[signit]

Sado masochism and pedophilia both fit the definition of sexual orientation as well as hundreds of other sexual “orientations”

We had a couple of threads about this earlier.

The word “orientation” is generally used in the social science literature to apply only to homosexuality / heterosexuality / bisexuality.

In a way pedophilia / zoophilia / etc. are “orientations” in that they’re not conduct, but the word is commonly used only for homosexuality / heterosexuality / bisexuality.

This came up earlier in a discussion of state gay rights laws and the proposed federal anti-discrimination law. I gave the example of one state law in which pedophilia is specifically not protected, and the proposed federal law, in which “orientation” was specifically defined as homosexuality / heterosexuality / bisexuality.

 

[LokisMom]

Hate and disgust are not synonyms.

We can love someone by praying for them and hoping they will return to morality and at the same time be repulsed by their actions.

.

I don’t think a homophobe is someone who hates and/or is disgusted by homosexual activity, but rather, someone who hates and/or is disgusted by homosexuals themselves, as people. This is not in line with the teaching to love others as children of God.

If you’re talking about hating the action alone, then we’d all be “homophobes” here, and so would God and Jesus.

 

[LokisMom]

I would suggest that you have a burden of proof for the assertion that “heterosexuals manage to not hate heterosexual sodomites”, a burden which you may find exceedingly difficult to meet.

.

Well, for one, there isn’t a word for it.

 

[LokisMom]

I am surprised, saddened, and disappointed to see so many fellow Catholics defending homophobia… defending disgust and/or hate towards another person simply because they are involuntarily attracted to people of the same sex.

This is not cool, guys.

 

[LokisMom]

For gay people I can hate the thought of certain acts and be a bit repulsed if I see something before me that we understand to be disordered but can never hate the people and cannot judge their character because we don’t know why they are doing this, how deep-rooted they feel what they feel, how disordered is the inclination etc…we don’t know the why behind it, although we can make general assessments.

…And lastly and most importantly, we don’t know how well WE would fair if WE were the ones who had an involuntary attraction to the same sex rather than the opposite sex.

I’d like to think I’d be chaste and celibate for my whole life if I was attracted to women, but if I am completely honest with myself, I really don’t think I’d be able to manage it.

 

[LokisMom]

Diagnostic criteria for 302.84 Sexual Sadism

Diagnostic criteria for 302.83 Sexual Masochism

.

I know the definition for those terms. Why are you posting this?

 

[Scottgun]

…And lastly and most importantly, we don’t know how well WE would fair if WE were the ones who had an involuntary attraction to the same sex rather than the opposite sex.

I’d like to think I’d be chaste and celibate for my whole life if I was attracted to women, but if I am completely honest with myself, I really don’t think I’d be able to manage it.

Actually, that’s the least important because people all have temptations of various sorts and sometimes people capitulate, which is forgiveable. The difference is that most people know what they are doing is wrong and don’t have a constituency of moral madness saying it isn’t really wrong. There are no Thieves’ Pride parades.

 

[LokisMom]

Actually, that’s the least important because people all have temptations of various sorts and sometimes people capitulate, which is forgiveable. The difference is that most people know what they are doing is wrong and don’t have a constituency of moral madness saying it isn’t really wrong. There are no Thieves’ Pride parades.

I mean in terms of being hateful or disgusted by people who have this condition. I think in those terms, the most important thing to remember is that we are blessed not to have this disorder and we don’t know how we would handle it if we did.

 

[Jerurussia]

janetsmith.excerptsofinri.com/
Here’s the “I TOLD YOU SO!” RE: contraceptive hormones feminize men and can induce homosexuality in male monkeys surrounded by females shot with estrogen; and make hormonally contracepting females desire effeminate males in human studies. And this doesn’t even touch on ESTROGEN DOMINANCE, estrogens in plants, drugs, chemicals, endogenous sources like gut yeast after antibiotic use and fatty tissue, and estrogens in meat and drinking water. That feminizes males, and the increase in breast cancer has been in NON-SMOKING MALES! The trans-gender trend started in WILDLIFE down-stream from sewage treatment plants, whether panthers or fish, with fish being particularly afflicted as their gender itself is hormone-mediated. Males who have high estrogen levels are more violent towards women in one Japanese study, and Japan has a high ingestion rate of soy, a phyto-estrogen, just as America is ingesting phyto-estrogen marijuana and inducing gynecomastia, man-boobs–usually on one side only.

HOMOPHOBIA is a non-issue considering the wildly high rate of gay-on-gay violent crime; and when women, including Catholics, are inducing gender identity sabotage via hormonal contraception; and the fact that high estrogen in males enhances violence towards women; and violence against women is politically correct, as evidenced by this administration having quashed special hate crime punishment of violence against the most vulnerable women, pregnant women. There’s a WAR ON WOMEN & MEN, not homosexuals artificially created by Big Pharma and contracepting Christians loosing their ecologic chaos into the water supply. DISCUSS AMONGST YOURSELVES!

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

I know the definition for those terms. Why are you posting this?

You stated that sado-masochism is a fetish, not an orientation.

For those suffering from the two disorders noted, it is an orientation.

.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I would suggest that you have a burden of proof for the assertion that “heterosexuals manage to not hate heterosexual sodomites”, a burden which you may find exceedingly difficult to meet.

.

How often do you hear people railing against heterosexuals engaging in oral sex with their opposite sex partner?

Diagnostic criteria for 302.84 Sexual Sadism

Diagnostic criteria for 302.83 Sexual Masochism

.

And?

We had a couple of threads about this earlier.

The word “orientation” is generally used in the social science literature to apply only to homosexuality / heterosexuality / bisexuality.

In a way pedophilia / zoophilia / etc. are “orientations” in that they’re not conduct, but the word is commonly used only for homosexuality / heterosexuality / bisexuality.

This came up earlier in a discussion of state gay rights laws and the proposed federal anti-discrimination law. I gave the example of one state law in which pedophilia is specifically not protected, and the proposed federal law, in which “orientation” was specifically defined as homosexuality / heterosexuality / bisexuality.

The other things is that for most of the people in both categories it is not quantifiable as an orientation.

Actually, that’s the least important because people all have temptations of various sorts and sometimes people capitulate, which is forgiveable. The difference is that most people know what they are doing is wrong and don’t have a constituency of moral madness saying it isn’t really wrong. There are no Thieves’ Pride parades.

:doh2:

 

[Jerurussia]

janetsmith.excerptsofinri.com/
Here’s the “I TOLD YOU SO!” RE: contraceptive hormones feminize men and can induce homosexuality in male monkeys surrounded by females shot with estrogen; and make hormonally contracepting females desire effeminate males in human studies. And this doesn’t even touch on ESTROGEN DOMINANCE, estrogens in plants, drugs, chemicals, endogenous sources like gut yeast after antibiotic use and fatty tissue, and estrogens in meat and drinking water. That feminizes males, and the increase in breast cancer has been in NON-SMOKING MALES! The trans-gender trend started in WILDLIFE down-stream from sewage treatment plants, whether panthers or fish, with fish being particularly afflicted as their gender itself is hormone-mediated. Males who have high estrogen levels are more violent towards women in one Japanese study, and Japan has a high ingestion rate of soy, a phyto-estrogen, just as America is ingesting phyto-estrogen marijuana and inducing gynecomastia, man-boobs–usually on one side only.

**HOMOPHOBIA is a non-issue considering the wildly high rate of gay-on-gay violent crime; and when women, including Catholics, are inducing gender identity sabotage via hormonal contraception; and the fact that high estrogen in males enhances violence towards women; and violence against women is politically correct, as evidenced by this administration having quashed special hate crime punishment of violence against the most vulnerable women, pregnant women. ** There’s a WAR ON WOMEN & MEN, not homosexuals artificially created by Big Pharma and contracepting Christians loosing their ecologic chaos into the water supply. DISCUSS AMONGST YOURSELVES!

HELLOOO? This isn’t Fred Phelps beating up gays, it’s gays beating up gays, and the gay-friendly administration ignoring violence against pregnant women BECAUSE THAT IS POLITICALLY CORRECT AND CULTURE NORMATIVE, RIGHT? Is the true issue narcissism with homosexual males ignoring the rights of gennies, genetic females?!?

 

[MacQ]

Before we begin I must emphasize this thread is not about the Church’s teaching on marriage or the immorality of homosexual acts. The Church has been abundantly clear about it’s teaching concerning these subjects. I know them, I accept them and agree with them.

My questions rather is hatred of homosexuals, like what is practiced and preached by the late Fred Phelps and Uganda’s Yoweri Museveni, sinful? In other words advocating ill treatment and discrimination, even criminal prosecution of homosexuals? After all it’s one thing to not condone or feel comfortable about the act itself but advocating violence and intolerance against an entire category of people seems unchristian and immoral to me-especially when the Church teaches that it is the homosexual act, not homosexuality in itself, that is sinful (please correct me if my interpretation of Church teaching is mistaken) and it is accepted that homosexual orientation is not a choice.

Yes, to put it simply, hate is a sin.
And that kind of hate is immoral and unchristian.
No two ways about it.
Whether or not the orientation is a choice.
(I don’t think it is)…