E
estesbob
Guest
Interesting-ones sexual behavior or sexual atractions is not something that is ever discussed among the with people I attend Church with.
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P
pathia
Guest
It does in confession and with any sort of attempt of reconciliation with the past. They want to know why I left. What’s changed etc. People ask, why I’m not married constantly. If I’m seeing anyone, if I plan on marrying, if I’m going to have kids. I’m of the age where people start to ‘worry’ that if I don’t ‘settle’ that I’m a lost cause I guess.
People try to play match maker, it’s rather funny, since they try to set me up with men, which would make any man attracted to me, homosexual, according to the teachings of the church. I do not discuss my medical past, no, only with the priests.
L
LotusCarsLtd
Guest
As a religious brother, how would you approach the discussion of homosexuality and transgenderism? As a Catholic I’m often confused as to the proper response one should make to these issues, what homosexuals are called to by the Church, and the issue of gay marriage.
Could you PM me?
Y
yngve
Guest
Hi Everyone.
I don’t mean to be ironic, but I am glad that here are so many genetic graduates, molecular biology graduates or psychology graduates and therefore we all have a ‘really’ scientific debate on this issue.
I am aware that most of us say things that ourselves heard in church and read in news papers, that being of course second hand information.
Let’s be straight (
) the church doesn’t have the smallest clue in dealing with this issue. It has always failed. As a result, gay people see the Church as a place where they can go and be blamed.
I am doing a PhD in molecular biology and have a B.Sc. in Chemistry and M.Sc. in Clinical Psychology and I am a practicing Roman-catholic. So, I usually don’t say much on issues I am not qualified in, but the gay issue is one of my primary interests.
First: There may be people that act as homosexuals because they might have been disillusioned in their marriage or previous relationship. However, these cases are rare and they can be ‘cured’ through therapy, though many don’t require that.
The vast majority of homosexuals are this way due to a set of conditions determined by the competition between nature and nurture, but a combination by both. i.e each gene comes with a promoter (a part which tells when the gene should or should not express itself). That’s why we don’t have red blood cells in our hair and hair on our liver. So due to some biochemical modifications that are or may be not induced by the environment, the promoter tells the gene that it should be transcribed.
There were studies trying to link homosexuality to a certain allele of a the chromosome X published in 1993. They managed to identify that 88% of the homosexuals have this gene and heterosexuals don’t. The study has been replicated with lower percentages, but still, it is mainstream accepted but needs improvement. There is not a single gay gene as there is not a single gene in determining hair or eye colour. But we are working on it, and the results are soon to follow.
Other studies are on identical twins which tend to favor homosexuality as being genetic, but not exclusively 100%. i.e there are cases when identical twins exposed to identical environments develop into homosexual and heterosexual respectively.
Some studies assert that these promoters can be activated in the mother’s womb if the boy has had a lot of older brothers, due to an immune response of the mother to the Y chromosome of the child.
NO STUDY concluded or can ever conclude that it is a choice. So, I ask you respectfully to stop propagating all these lies to your children or in your Sunday schools. You will answer in front of God for this. Plus, why would anyone chose to face this kind of discrimination and to suffer like this.
There is a kind of therapy suggested by the fundamentalist “Christians” called “Reparative therapy”. This is the one of most damaging form of “therapies” that exist. Not only that it has an apparent success of 0.5 % (this success is valid for the first 2 years after therapy, and beyond that, no motorization way maintained) *this being understood that 99.5% of the cases have not only failed, but were seriously damaged and had to take real therapies to undo this damage. 1/3 of the cases having this kind of therapy have attempted suicide as a result of the therapy.
One solution would be indeed celibacy. But what if the homosexual person doesn’t have the vocation for celibacy. What do we ask from him? I am sure that for many of you it is easy to say: “Remain single, that’s what God wants” and then return to your spouse and watch a lovely movie together and take the kinds to school in the morning. To all of you who do that I dedicate this song: John Michael Talbot - Would you crucify Him. youtube.com/watch?v=huYKjSqs2RY
Remember that your word count to someone, and maybe your children are gay and afraid to tell you, and when they leave home, you never hear from them or commit suicide. You have a responsibility. Get informed and act as a consequence. Don’t be dilettantes as this can lead to much more damage than you can imagine. All what I’ve said here is documented by published studies and I can offer them to you upon request.
God bless.
Yngve
I don’t mean to be ironic, but I am glad that here are so many genetic graduates, molecular biology graduates or psychology graduates and therefore we all have a ‘really’ scientific debate on this issue.
I am aware that most of us say things that ourselves heard in church and read in news papers, that being of course second hand information.
Let’s be straight (
) the church doesn’t have the smallest clue in dealing with this issue. It has always failed. As a result, gay people see the Church as a place where they can go and be blamed.I am doing a PhD in molecular biology and have a B.Sc. in Chemistry and M.Sc. in Clinical Psychology and I am a practicing Roman-catholic. So, I usually don’t say much on issues I am not qualified in, but the gay issue is one of my primary interests.
First: There may be people that act as homosexuals because they might have been disillusioned in their marriage or previous relationship. However, these cases are rare and they can be ‘cured’ through therapy, though many don’t require that.
The vast majority of homosexuals are this way due to a set of conditions determined by the competition between nature and nurture, but a combination by both. i.e each gene comes with a promoter (a part which tells when the gene should or should not express itself). That’s why we don’t have red blood cells in our hair and hair on our liver. So due to some biochemical modifications that are or may be not induced by the environment, the promoter tells the gene that it should be transcribed.
There were studies trying to link homosexuality to a certain allele of a the chromosome X published in 1993. They managed to identify that 88% of the homosexuals have this gene and heterosexuals don’t. The study has been replicated with lower percentages, but still, it is mainstream accepted but needs improvement. There is not a single gay gene as there is not a single gene in determining hair or eye colour. But we are working on it, and the results are soon to follow.
Other studies are on identical twins which tend to favor homosexuality as being genetic, but not exclusively 100%. i.e there are cases when identical twins exposed to identical environments develop into homosexual and heterosexual respectively.
Some studies assert that these promoters can be activated in the mother’s womb if the boy has had a lot of older brothers, due to an immune response of the mother to the Y chromosome of the child.
NO STUDY concluded or can ever conclude that it is a choice. So, I ask you respectfully to stop propagating all these lies to your children or in your Sunday schools. You will answer in front of God for this. Plus, why would anyone chose to face this kind of discrimination and to suffer like this.
There is a kind of therapy suggested by the fundamentalist “Christians” called “Reparative therapy”. This is the one of most damaging form of “therapies” that exist. Not only that it has an apparent success of 0.5 % (this success is valid for the first 2 years after therapy, and beyond that, no motorization way maintained) *this being understood that 99.5% of the cases have not only failed, but were seriously damaged and had to take real therapies to undo this damage. 1/3 of the cases having this kind of therapy have attempted suicide as a result of the therapy.
One solution would be indeed celibacy. But what if the homosexual person doesn’t have the vocation for celibacy. What do we ask from him? I am sure that for many of you it is easy to say: “Remain single, that’s what God wants” and then return to your spouse and watch a lovely movie together and take the kinds to school in the morning. To all of you who do that I dedicate this song: John Michael Talbot - Would you crucify Him. youtube.com/watch?v=huYKjSqs2RY
Remember that your word count to someone, and maybe your children are gay and afraid to tell you, and when they leave home, you never hear from them or commit suicide. You have a responsibility. Get informed and act as a consequence. Don’t be dilettantes as this can lead to much more damage than you can imagine. All what I’ve said here is documented by published studies and I can offer them to you upon request.
God bless.
Yngve
E
estesbob
Guest
With all due respect it appears the problem is you do not have a clue as to what the church teaches on homosexual behavior. The Church makes it clear that it does not know whether same-sex attraction is genetic or not and that it doesn’t matter. The attraction is not the sin , the behavior is , as is any sexual behavior outside of marriage.Hi
I am aware that most of us say things that ourselves heard in church and read in news papers, that being of course second hand information.
Let’s be straight (
Ie
I am impressed with your curriculum vitae but I am surprised at you every firm conclusions in areas that other scientists in your field cannot come to agreement about.
Y
yngve
Guest
I know what the Church teaches. It does not teach hate or ‘repair’ of the homosexuals though, in practice many ‘worried’ parents take their children to ‘reparative’ therapy.
If same-sex attraction is genetic, then it would be something made by God. Why would God make someone with a handicap? Homosexuality is not equivalent to a genetic disease. In a genetic disease, you really don’t have a choice in many things. And now we have gene therapy and we can fix/will be able to fix those diseases.
With homosexuality you face discrimination and ultimately you are being denied the ability to love and be loved ( not by God of course). They are not by far equivalent
J
jtindell
Guest
Sure it is based on scientific evidence, but…
So homosexuality is a brain thing…I was born with a chemical imbalance in my brain. I have ADHD and I had to take responsibility to fix me so I could function in society as I wanted to… After lots of meds, therapy and behavior modification I finally got to where I was able to become the person I wanted to be, functional and positively proactive in my community. But it was my choice. I could either rock the ADHD, get Disability from the government or concentrate all my efforts on fighting that chemical imbalance and make my life how I wanted it. How **I **wanted it.
I sort of think about homosexuality like my own brain stuff. If you want to change it, you can. It might require meds and therapy and behavior modification but you can do it. If not then fine. But if you’re a Catholic and want to rock that, then you certainly can do what I did to fight the ‘genetics’…therapy, meds and behavior modification.
This might be simplifying the issue but homosexuality is wrong because Mother Church says it is wrong. Enough said. You want to be in the club and receive salvation from Jesus Christ then you better follow along. It ain’t easy but it is a requirement. Nobody gets into Heaven for free without struggle and bearing crosses, no matter what the Protestants say. I’m a Catholic, I don’t need further debate on that subject. It’s wrong. Deal with it!
In Christ (lovingly, always),
Jen
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yngve
Guest
Well, I don’t think so. I don’t want to disappoint you, but in the past ADHD was seen as being possessed by the devil, and people with this syndrome were even burned. Mother Church had her mistakes, and they weren’t few. There takes a lot to qualify something as a disease. In ADHD certain enzyme deficiency and neurotransmitter excess has been shown, which is undoubtedly damaging to both psychical (short range) and somatic (long range) sides. Moreover, in some cases it is regarded as danger for the self and for the others.
What is the link to homosexuality?
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estesbob
Guest
There is strong evidence that alcoholism is genetic but that does not mean they have right to get drunk and/or are not responsible for any behavior they engage in while they’re drunk.
Although we may not be responsible for our attractions or genetic predispositions we are 100% responsible for our behavior. The idea that “God made you that way” is an excuse for any kind of behavior is specious.
People who engage in homosexual behavior are not denied the ability to love or to be loved. . That would be true only if one believed that sexual behavior was the only way that one could express their love which is absurd on the face of it.
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estesbob
Guest
J
jean8
Guest
Genetic? No, Homosexuality is a sin, one which God hates.
Rom.1:24-32 Do you actually think God creates a person to be this way and then condemn them in His word? God warns us about sin, then he gives us the choice. Whom do you love more, your sin or the Lord ?
Heb, 10:26 gives us this dire warning, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment
and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
Does this get our attention, I’m listening , how about you?
jean8
J
jean8
Guest
Acholholism can be an addition which requires medical help. homosexuality requires God’s help. Both are a chosen life style.
Drunkeness is a sin also. See 1Cor.6:9-11
jean8
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estesbob
Guest
I am a recovering alcoholic and through the grace of God and only through the grace of God I have been sober for 23 years
J
jtindell
Guest
No, you’re not disapointing me at all! I’m here to learn, too.:newidea:
I meant the comparison where it is being said that homosexuality is something that is genetic, like my ADHD. But I see what you mean about the difference between a 'disease ‘and a genetic disposition. That’s what I meant. (Although many would consider homosexuality a disease).I’ve never considered my ADHD a ‘disease’ in the clinical sense of the word, always considered a genetic thing, like how I got my Grandpa’s love of the drink and my Grandmothers’ artistic flair. But it is my problem. I consider it something that I was given as a ‘cross to bear’. That’s how I think of homosexuality. If you want to be a Christian and it’s obvious how Our Lord feels about homosexuality…well, then, you’re going to have to fight it. Even though it’s not your fault (maybe?), you’ve got to fight if you want what Christ has to give. So you make a choice. I did.
And I’ve never, ever heard of ADHD being a danger to anyone else and I’ve had it for 30 years. It’s just how my brain works.
G
goofyjim
Guest
Again homosexual acts are a sin. The condition of homosexuality is not.
S
selylidne
Guest
(I didn’t read the whole thread.)
Homosexuality, to the best of human knowledge, is mostly genetic, partly hormonal, and little bit environmental. It is not a choice.
It shouldn’t be surprising that homosexuality is not purely genetic. Sex itself (i.e., whether a person is male or female) is not purely genetic!
Homosexuality, to the best of human knowledge, is mostly genetic, partly hormonal, and little bit environmental. It is not a choice.
It shouldn’t be surprising that homosexuality is not purely genetic. Sex itself (i.e., whether a person is male or female) is not purely genetic!
N
Neolithic
Guest
Homosexuality is not mostly genetic. I provided several studies earlier proving this much. It’s in part genetic, but not mostly.
And a persons gender is entirely and purely genetic. Y Chromosome = Male; X Chromosome = Female. And sex-linked diseases are also genetic.
P
pathia
Guest
There are women who are XY and men who are XX without being transsexuals.
abcnews.go.com/Health/MedicalMysteries/Story?id=5465752&page=1
nlm.nih.gov/cgi/mesh/2008/MB_cgi?mode=&term=Androgen-Insensitivity+Syndrome
My chromosomes for example are known as a mosiac, a XY/XXY/XX to be specific. My white blood cells are XY. My bone marrow appears to be XXY, while my tongue and much of my soft tissue is XX.
How would you qualify a XY woman, who was that way from birth, or an XX man. Or what about me? I have both sets of chromosomes. The only way to tell which set has ‘more’ would be to test every cell line in my body, which won’t be possible until I am dead and the point somewhat moot, though I suppose I may get an answer in heaven or hell, wherever I go.
N
Neolithic
Guest
I don’t see how any of this is relevant to what I said. The bottom line is that gender is 100% genetic.
World Health Organization:
Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.
And, again, whatever abnormalities there might be are also genetic.
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pathia
Guest
You said it’s 100% genetic when there are clear, but rare, violations of that. How can it be 100% genetic, when it’s not? Intersexism can also be caused by endocrine failure AFTER conception, it is not caused by genetics. Any number of outside influences can cause intersexism besides genetics. Some drugs can cause it to happen to male or female fetuses for example. My chromosome oddities may be attributed to a drug my mother was taking, if she had not been taking it, I may have ended up a more normal boy or girl.
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