Is Isis really Islamic

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-So you are presenting an argument (that WBC theology isn’t Christian) as fact that you know can’t be proved true or false; and doing so based upon one aspect of WBC theology not being from the NT (and this without any actual support provided for the claim).
I can prove it false based on WBC’s assertions that it is a Christian theology. What I am asking is that you provide support for WBC’s theology being Christian since you’re the one asserting that it is. Seeing as how members of the Phelps family aren’t on this board and all.
-And then go on to use what is in effect a double standard by supporting Anglicanism as Christian because even though one aspect of its theology is based on just the OT (and it is in fact more than just one aspect since Henry 8 based his separation from the Church on the OT kings and not on OT marriage law), it’s complete theology isn’t based on just the OT (which is your unproven claim concerning WBC theology).
One aspect of its theology? Can you demonstrate that King Henry’s request for an annulment is an aspect of Anglican theology?? Is it part of the Book of Common Prayer? The 39 Articles? Any of the Reformed Anglican confessions?
-Looks to me like you’re left with-
–showing that all of WBC’s theology is based on the OT
Is it? Do they make that claim? Do you?
 
Catholics need to wake up. Robert Spencer was interviewed on the very first Catholic Answers Focus. He is an expert on Islam and speaks the unabashed truth. Calling oneself “Muslim” does not a Muslim make. The same goes for Christians mind you.

Here’s a link to the show: catholic.com/focus/1
 
Catholics need to wake up. Robert Spencer was interviewed on the very first Catholic Answers Focus. He is an expert on Islam and speaks the unabashed truth. Calling oneself “Muslim” does not a Muslim make. The same goes for Christians mind you.

Here’s a link to the show: catholic.com/focus/1
Oh wow. Robert Spencer said that? Well excuse me then. I retract everything I just said. :rolleyes:

Determining who is or who isn’t a true Muslim is just as subjective as determining who is or who isn’t a true Christian. It’s a discussion that goes on within each respective religious group and often is never concluded.

I take Robert Spencer with a grain of salt. This is the same guy who so casually ignores the transgressions in the name of Christ throughout history and then recounts all the transgressions of Islam. All religions have a propensity for violence because all people live in a fallen state of nature. Buddhists, Daoists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. it doesn’t matter. All religions have a pretty terrible history of violence. Yet Robert Spencer has the gall and the naivete to claim “Christianity is a religion of peace, while Islam isn’t.” I guess he never read the Old Testament, because it is riddled with accounts of mass genocide.
 
Oh wow. Robert Spencer said that? Well excuse me then. I retract everything I just said. :rolleyes:

Determining who is or who isn’t a true Muslim is just as subjective as determining who is or who isn’t a true Christian. It’s a discussion that goes on within each respective religious group and often is never concluded.

I take Robert Spencer with a grain of salt. This is the same guy who so casually ignores the transgressions in the name of Christ throughout history and then recounts all the transgressions of Islam. All religions have a propensity for violence because all people live in a fallen state of nature. Buddhists, Daoists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. it doesn’t matter. All religions have a pretty terrible history of violence. Yet Robert Spencer has the gall and the naivete to claim “Christianity is a religion of peace, while Islam isn’t.” I guess he never read the Old Testament, because it is riddled with accounts of mass genocide.
You’re not fooling anyone with your “Orthodox” moniker. You are an orthodox what, atheist maybe? Your argument from the Old Testament is fallacious. If you are truly a Christian then you are a very confused one. Islam spread by the sword and mandates subjugation of unbelievers. The Catholic Faith, which is the one true religion (does that offend you? I bet it does…), spread by the blood of the martyrs, and her doctrines are fundamentally opposed to all forms of religious coercion.
 
Br. Dominic Mary Vernier O.P. argues in the affirmative in a recent Dominicana blog, March 9, 2015. In his view and others Isis is living out, to the letter, the life and teaching and practices of Muhammad himself and thus view themselves as prophets of the prophet. In Brother Dominic’s view,

" Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.” Many denials of the Islamic State’s religious nature, he said, are rooted in an “interfaith-Christian-nonsense tradition.”

But you can read the article yourself here. dominicanablog.com/.

Linus2nd
Adherents of ISIS are Muslims. They do very awful persecutions. But these are not what Islam impose. Because ISIS do all those massacres to threaten people and to get domination and land. Prophet Muhammed did some wars to expand faith but He never persecute. You can criticise that way and you can ask that question: Why did not Islam expand in a peaceful way instead it has been done by sword. But you overlook that already Islam was expanded before wars. Wars accelerated the process.

Christians were persecuted many times before Rome accepted Christianity as a religion. After that Christianity expand quickly. Islam provided power of state to defend believers originally.

Islamic countries and Muslims were occupated directly or indirectly. There are many wars, struggles, arguments between Muslims. Iraq was occupied by USA and Syria is in a internalwar. So there are not a supreme powers in those territories. Some evil souls(ISIS) took advantages of that bad circumstances.

Why Islamic countries do not condemn ISIS and do not war against ISIS. Well. Nobody can say that Muslims do not condemn ISIS.

Bashar Asad is slaying some hundred thousand people and we cannot stop that. Egypt is under domination of coup. Turkey has many problem with Kurds. Iraq goverment did wrong works. Iran policy is an other problem. I mean there are many political, economical, social problem between Muslims. And Islamic goverments have no enough military, political and economical powers to solve problems.

ISIS is not a religious problem at all. There are many different causes.
 
I am certainly an Orthodox Christian, but neither am I ignorant of history. Like I said above, Islam was remarkably tolerant for its day, in which Christians under Muslim rule, while second class citizens, were hardly ever forced to convert until around the 13th century. That’s nearly 600 years of Muslim rule without any coherent policy of forcing Christians to convert or die.

I really suggest you read the following book:

Robinson, Chase F. Empire and Elites after the Muslim Conquest: The Transformation of Northern Mesopotamia. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 2000.

It will give you pretty good idea how Islam built its empire after it burst forth from the Arabian peninsula, which didn’t involve conversion by the sword.

As for your high minded ideals of the Christian faith, I’ll just name a few:

1.) Emperor Charlemagne ordered and carried out a mass execution of Saxons who refused to take the Eucharist, which they did because conversion was forced upon them. This, of course, paved the way for making the Saxons Christians.

2.) Saint Augustine of Hippo advocated forced conversion after initially forbidding it because he became frustrated that the Donatists wouldn’t admit that they were wrong.

3.) Boris, the ruler of Bulgaria, a Christian convert, only courted Byzantium in ecclesiastical affairs because Boris knew that the Byzantines would use his pagan son, Vladimir, as a pretext for invasion. So much for “peaceful” conversion.

4.) Let’s not forget how most churches, regardless of geographic locations, treated the Jews. Jews actually often faired better under Muslim rule rather than Christian rule throughout most of history.

As for the Old Testament part, I must turn the tables on you. Are you a Christian at all? Have you ever opened your Bible? I jest with these questions of course. Joshua 6:20 says, “Joshua put the city under a curse with the edge of the sword, and whatever was in it: from man to woman, from young man to old man, and from calf to donkey.” Only Rahab and her family were spared. Sounds like genocide to me. If you want to rationalize it, be my guest. After all, who are we to judge God’s will? But if you are going to deny that isn’t a case of genocide, then you aren’t being honest with yourself.
 
  1. Emperor Charlemagne is not the Church. Please cite authority that his actions (assuming it in fact happened the way you say) were commanded or sanctioned by the Catholic Church, or otherwise comport with Catholic doctrine.
  2. Cite authority.
  3. See #1 above.
  4. I’ve heard this one before. A blanket assertion deserves a blanket response. Prove it.
 
Catholics need to wake up. Robert Spencer was interviewed on the very first Catholic Answers Focus. He is an expert on Islam and speaks the unabashed truth. Calling oneself “Muslim” does not a Muslim make. The same goes for Christians mind you.

Here’s a link to the show: catholic.com/focus/1
Spencer is even less qualified to be labeled an expert on Islam than Slick or MacArthur are as experts on Catholicism.
 
I can prove it false based on WBC’s assertions that it is a Christian theology. What I am asking is that you provide support for WBC’s theology being Christian since you’re the one asserting that it is. Seeing as how members of the Phelps family aren’t on this board and all.

One aspect of its theology? Can you demonstrate that King Henry’s request for an annulment is an aspect of Anglican theology?? Is it part of the Book of Common Prayer? The 39 Articles? Any of the Reformed Anglican confessions?

Is it? Do they make that claim? Do you?
-Well if you can prove it false based on WBC’s assertions that it is a Christian theology go right ahead and do so. You are, after all, the person who introduced your claim first and according to your prior comment about burden of proof that would mean we are waiting on you to provide the evidence.
-So you’re claiming that Henry 8’s annulment was done outside the teachings and theology of Anglicanism as well as Catholicism? You see, if his annulment and the grounds for it weren’t within Anglicanism, he as the self appointed head of the Church of England (which was based on the OT, not the NT) wouldn’t have been able to get said annulment and still be in good standing with the Church of England.
 
Adherents of ISIS are Muslims. They do very awful persecutions. But these are not what Islam impose. Because ISIS do all those massacres to threaten people and to get domination and land. Prophet Muhammed did some wars to expand faith but He never persecute. You can criticise that way and you can ask that question: Why did not Islam expand in a peaceful way instead it has been done by sword. But you overlook that already Islam was expanded before wars. Wars accelerated the process.

Christians were persecuted many times before Rome accepted Christianity as a religion. After that Christianity expand quickly. Islam provided power of state to defend believers originally.

Islamic countries and Muslims were occupated directly or indirectly. There are many wars, struggles, arguments between Muslims. Iraq was occupied by USA and Syria is in a internalwar. So there are not a supreme powers in those territories. Some evil souls(ISIS) took advantages of that bad circumstances.

Why Islamic countries do not condemn ISIS and do not war against ISIS. Well. Nobody can say that Muslims do not condemn ISIS.

Bashar Asad is slaying some hundred thousand people and we cannot stop that. Egypt is under domination of coup. Turkey has many problem with Kurds. Iraq goverment did wrong works. Iran policy is an other problem. I mean there are many political, economical, social problem between Muslims. And Islamic goverments have no enough military, political and economical powers to solve problems.

ISIS is not a religious problem at all. There are many different causes.
-I have some reservations about your first paragraph, but that’s for another thread.
-You forgot to mention the Kurds who are Muslim and who have been fighting ISIS from the very beginning.
 
-So you’re claiming that Henry 8’s annulment was done outside the teachings and theology of Anglicanism as well as Catholicism? You see, if his annulment and the grounds for it weren’t within Anglicanism, he as the self appointed head of the Church of England (which was based on the OT, not the NT) wouldn’t have been able to get said annulment and still be in good standing with the Church of England.
Henry’s annulment dispute with the Pope has nothing to do with Anglican theology, no. It was the impetus for a break with the See of Rome but there was no Anglican theology involved. Henry’s causa for his annulment was entirely within the framework of Roman canon law.
 
With regards to #1, you’re putting words into my mouth. I never claimed that an order came down to Charlemagne to enforce such a conversion. He did it on his own prerogative and many clergy agreed with it. The fact of the matter is that a significant number of the clergy who traveled in retinue with Charlemagne and carried out his orders to baptize the conquered Saxons. It is significant that Alcuin of York, the premiere theologian and bishop of the Carolingian Court, did not criticize Charlemagne’s actions due to the use of force. He criticized them solely on the basis that the Saxons should be further educated before their baptism. Force was not objectionable. He wrote to Charlemagne:

“Look how much in devotion and kindness you worked to weaken the stubbornness of the unfaithful people of the Saxons before the expansion of the name of Christ through the counsel of true salvation. But because the elected [the Saxons] are not yet seen to be made in that divinity, many continue to remain hither outside this [divinity] [and] with the devil are damned in sad and sinful customs.” My translation from Alcuin, Epistulae. Ed. Ernst Dümmler, Monumenta Germaniae Historica, Epp. 4, EKA 2, pp. 157.

Charlemagne’s forced conversions as a matter of political subjugation are painted by Alcuin as good deeds. The whole Frankish clergy backed Charlemagne’s deeds against the Saxons. The only objections were only aimed at not the forced conversions, but rather that the Saxons were not educated enough in Christian knowledge and that their tithes should be lessened. If you are looking for anything regarding papal views to this, you won’t find them because during the Carolingian period, the popes largely kept out of Frankish political affairs.

Sources: Wood, Ian N. “The Northern Frontier: Christianity Face to Face with Paganism.” In The Cambridge History of Christianity: Early Medieval Christianities, c. 600-c. 1100. vol. 3. 230-246. Edited by Thomas F. X. Noble and Julia M. H. Smith. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2008. 233-234.

As for #2, Augustine was a great and prolific writer. As such, it is difficult for me to so off-hand track down his two opposing opinions in his large body of works. I hope you can simply be satisfied with a secondary source, which talks about his change:

Brown, P. R. L. “St. Augustine’s Attitude to Religious Coercion.” The Journal of Roman Studies 54 (1964): 107-116.

As for #3, my sources are:

Dvornik, Francis. The Photian Schism: History and Legend. New York: Cambridge University Press, 1948. Reprinted 1970. 151-152.

Herrin, Judith. Byzantium: The Surprising Life of a Medieval Empire. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 2007. 135-137.

As for #4, here are some examples of persecution of the Jews in Europe during the medieval period:

legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1096jews.asp

Frankish Church Councils from the sixth to the eighth centuries legislated against Jewish commercial activities and against Jews owning Christian slaves. For this see:

Halfond, Gregory. Archaeology of Frankish Church Councils, AD 511-768. Boston: Brill, 2010. 102-108.

In the 14th century, King Philip IV of France confiscated all the property of all the Jews in the kingdom, and then expelled them. For this see:

Madden, Thomas F. The New Concise History of the Crusades. New York: Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2006. 191.

Meanwhile, in Fatimid Egypt, Jews were allowed to serve in the military. For this see:

Tyerman, Christopher. God’s War: A New History of the Crusades. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2006. 155.

After the fall of Jerusalem to Saladin, Saladin encouraged Jewish settlements in the city. For this see:

Runciman, Steven. A History of the Crusades: The Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Frankish East 1100-1187. vol. 2. Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 1952. Fourth Printing 1996. 381.

After the fall of Edessa, which led to the Second Crusade, Zengi helped to settle Jewish families into his new territories. The reasons for such were because the Jews felt far better treated under Muslim rule than under Christian rule. Therefore, they were loyal subjects to Zengi. Zengi installed them in order to help consolidate his new holdings. For this see Runciman also, but on page 193.

#4 is not historically controversial. I’d be happy to give you more sources, but they may very well be sources I haven’t read because it’s not an opinion I find objectionable nor in my area of focus. It’s common knowledge amongst all medievalists.

My point to all of this is simply to illustrate that people in the past, in the name of Christianity, ranging from lay people to bishops, all advocated or condoned violence in the name of advancing the Christian faith. Whether or not you think this is truly Christian or not is inconsequential. They thought it was a truly Christian thing to do.
 
Just an emendation to my post above. My point with Augustine is much further. It is because of his contradictions/ambiguity on forced conversion that many Christians in the medieval period often justified forced conversions. According to their thinking, if Augustine thought it was okay, then it was okay. My example of the Saxons is a pristine case.
 
Just an emendation to my post above. My point with Augustine is much further. It is because of his contradictions/ambiguity on forced conversion that many Christians in the medieval period often justified forced conversions. According to their thinking, if Augustine thought it was okay, then it was okay. My example of the Saxons is a pristine case.
Could you supply the actual text or where it can found by Augustine?
As for #2, Augustine was a great and prolific writer. As such, it is difficult for me to so off-hand track down his two opposing opinions in his large body of works. I hope you can simply be satisfied with a secondary source, which talks about his change:
Brown, P. R. L. “St. Augustine’s Attitude to Religious Coercion.” The Journal of Roman Studies 54 (1964): 107-116.
Do you have the book above? Check the footnotes he must have documented where in Augustines work this came from.

What I see, is many opinions all based on the work above. Be nice to know exactly what is being spoken about in relation to the assumed existing work of Augustine. I don’t doubt the existence, and he wrote on just war etc. He wrote different views on many things, he was thinking out loud and writing, and in excess. Sort of like you and I thinking and talking before we reach a final conclusion. imho.

Peace
 
Egypt is under domination of coup.
From a man who has a 82% popularity today? The people seem very happy, no persecution as under the Muslim Brotherhood. 🤷 Thoughts? 🙂

Hey, hasantas, I still want to talk about God and the energy theory. :cool: Whenever you have more time.
 
Could you supply the actual text or where it can found by Augustine?

Do you have the book above? Check the footnotes he must have documented where in Augustines work this came from.

What I see, is many opinions all based on the work above. Be nice to know exactly what is being spoken about in relation to the assumed existing work of Augustine. I don’t doubt the existence, and he wrote on just war etc. He wrote different views on many things, he was thinking out loud and writing, and in excess. Sort of like you and I thinking and talking before we reach a final conclusion. imho.

Peace
I did find one of the texts. It’s Letter 93 to Vincentius. Paragraph 16 is of prime interest, but you should read the whole excerpt: earlychurchtexts.com/public/augustine_letter_93_to_vincentius_cogite_intrare.htm

I agree with you on Augustine. He was a great writer and saint. However, he still wrote some questionable things, which is very much possible when anyone is as prolific as he was.

Let me reiterate my argument/thesis. Because humanity presently exists in a fallen state, the potential for forced conversion to any ideology or faith is always present. This explains not only the historical record of Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, and Islam, but also that of Christianity. This tendency towards coercion is present even in the most respected, such as Augustine of Hippo and Alcuin of York. Therefore, for those of you who say ISIS is Islam in its original form and that Islam forced mass conversions of Christians by the sword when it forged its empire, I ask that you stop. It is factually wrong. Christianity too has a checkered past. If you are going to paint Islam as some sort of violent and barbaric religion, then you must apply the same paint to Christianity if you are to avoid double standards.
 
Henry’s annulment dispute with the Pope has nothing to do with Anglican theology, no. It was the impetus for a break with the See of Rome but there was no Anglican theology involved. Henry’s causa for his annulment was entirely within the framework of Roman canon law.
So where in Canon Law does the Church allow kings to go ahead and start up their own religion when the Pope doesn’t give them an annulment? Also this grounds for annulment it wouldn’t happen to be based on the OT would it? And your reply concerning Henry 8 justifying the break from Rome and self-appointment as head of the Church of England being based in the OT and not the NT can be found where?
 
So where in Canon Law does the Church allow kings to go ahead and start up their own religion when the Pope doesn’t give them an annulment? Also this grounds for annulment it wouldn’t happen to be based on the OT would it? And your reply concerning Henry 8 justifying the break from Rome and self-appointment as head of the Church of England being based in the OT and not the NT can be found where?
You’re confusing the break from Rome on the part of Henry with Anglican theology. Again, can you show where in Anglican theology Henry’s annulment is discussed as an article of faith?
 
You’re confusing the break from Rome on the part of Henry with Anglican theology. Again, can you show where in Anglican theology Henry’s annulment is discussed as an article of faith?
Yeah, you’re right. Henry just went ahead and broke from Rome (you seem to have repeatedly forgotten to show the NT justification for this by the way) because the Pope wouldn’t grant him an annulment (the theological foundation for this annulment, it was based on the NT right?) and established his own Church in which his annulment wouldn’t be supported by the theology of his new Church which he was the head of. Yep, Henry 8’s annulment had nothing at all to do with Anglican theology. Yep, the self-appointed head of the newly created (by him) Church of England undertook a religious action (annulment) based on a religious justification (the OT) that was completely outside the theology of his new Church, which just happened to have been created in order to get said religious action (annulment). :rolleyes:
 
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