Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

[Namesake]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

The Ten Commandments, also here.

Your Thoughts?

My brother-in-law last weekend told me that Mary has saved him from many serious problems. That’s how he said it. That is not a good thing for him to believe, as I am sure you agree, or maybe not!

I believe that only Jesus saves us.

Catholics believe many different things.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

The Ten Commandments, also here.

Your Thoughts?

There are several reasons that may account for inaccurate statements about Catholicism by the kind of Christians indicated:​

• I have seen both in books and in real life so many worthy men fall into error and fall in such an incredibly stupid manner that I refuse to consider the inexactitudes of certain persons as due to deliberate falsehood. Are there not enough explanations besides this one to account sufficiently for the blundering of our feeble intellect ? Even genius itself, however high it may tower above us, is still always near to the ground.
  From: J.-M.-S. Gorini (1803-59), Defense de l’Eglise, Paris 1886 (10th edition) - as quoted in: M. V. Hay, A Chain of Error in Scottish History p.158 (London 1927)

I don’t think it’s necessary to assume deliberate falsehood as an explanation for inaccurate statements by Christians about other Christians: if only because there are many other possibilities, that do not require people to ascribe evil to others.

 

[vocatio]

Let’s talk about the “Mary saving me” statement that your friend said. We do not believe that Mary “saves” us as the Protestant meaning of the word implies only one meaning. As far as being saved. We seek out our faith with fear and trembling. We aren’t just 'saved", we are always converting…that means we are getting closer and closer spiritually to understanding God, Christ’s ways, holiness. We learn from mistakes etc…new thread on that

I got into a serious wreck in the 80’s and should have died. I am putting a story together with pics of the accident. I saw my guardian angle that day about 5:00 P.M rushing to work, broaded sided by an car. He had the right of way. Put right at impact I saw the face of something that appeared form nothingness…seemed to convery a message of you’ll be okay…and then circled my entire body like an orbiting satelite. Scared me to death…But my truck overturned about 6 to 8 times and I managed to stop really far away on the side of the road and pulled myself out of my seatbelt scared to death with only a bruise on my shoulder form the shoulder strap and a small bruise from where the left side of my head initially hit the side windo. I was not hurt and walked away. Everyone knew I should have died and looking at the photos should show you that God was looking over me that day.

Notice. I gave my guardian angle credit for saving me, but God always receive glory for the marvelous creatures he has historically and scripturally sent to take care of us. I give Mary credit for saving me in that I adopted her as my mother since I didn’t have a stable home environment. Hard to admit. But I’ve seen many things with my own eyes that even convinced me just this past year to come home. But that does not mean we elevate the Saints and Angels to God’s level. But they are most certainly higher than us. They also help us just like they did in the Old and Bew Testament. They are glorified in heaven…but Jesus is King. It doesn’t take much to cognitively understand, but it takes a lot to overcome the lies spread because we fear we may be offending God…and we can if we overstep that boundary. I see people that certainly appear to be doing that. But I know they do not. The Eucharist is the most important thing we have. I’d say baptism “to get in” is obvioius. And the sacrament of reconciliation is up there to help us when we fall into serious sins.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I don’t think it’s necessary to assume deliberate falsehood as an explanation for inaccurate statements by Christians about other Christians: if only because there are many other possibilities, that do not require people to ascribe evil to others.

My question is - “Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?”

“Knowingly”… There is no assumption required in my question…

So, do you think that it is “a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?”

Thank you

 

[justinthemartyr]

That would be a mortal sin to the soul called 'calumny"

even if the person is just saying something negative about the catholic church and individuals within it, even if it is true, that sin is called “detraction”

 

[vocatio]

Detraction…

Oh my… I just wrote an email to our Pator about realizing this… I didn’t understand that completely when I was a younger Catholic. The Army ruffled my feathers and my Protestant family was so unlike following this. They criticized everyone to the point that I just stopped visiting them. I hated the knives shooting in mine or someone elses back when they left the room. And then…I married into a family of preachers…and boy of boy…Detratction is not even in their vocabulary. They proselytize to “save souls for Christ”.

I am working really hard on this now with a better understanding for it. Now it is not easy and there are levels of seriousness. Coming back home the the Catholic Church has brought me so much sanctifying grace that my conscience is advancing beyond from my earlier years. Sure, I step on my toes while on others. But I do much better and find myself, still in need of conversion/transformation, getting so much better. The level of my anger has serioiusly reduced. I tease people but hope I don’t go too far. Maybe I’ll stop that one day. A Monsingior used to tell me I was too serious. That is why I began to try to tease.

 

[Jimmy_B]

My brother-in-law last weekend told me that Mary has saved him from many serious problems. That’s how he said it. That is not a good thing for him to believe, as I am sure you agree, or maybe not!
I believe that only Jesus saves us.
Catholics believe many different things.

Hello** Namesake**,

Catholics too, believe that “only Jesus saves”. Some “found” Jesus while they were sitting in a jail cell, some in rehab, some were brought into Christianity by family or friends. Some “find” Jesus because of a serious injury or illness. The illness for example, didn’t “save them” but for those that this applies to; if it was not for their illness, they might not have “found” Jesus and might not have been “Saved”. So, to say that they were “Saved” by their illness, because that is how they “found” God, would be correct.

God works in mysterious ways and *if it wasn’t for the Grace of God, there I go, *includes the Grace of God, working through others… including Mary or the memory of Mary.

Is there a “bad way” to come to Jesus? Usually when a Catholic says that they were “saved by Mary”…What they mean is that Mary, or reflecting on Mary the person, the Mother of Jesus, they “found” Jesus and then they were “Saved”. One cannot think about the “Virgin Mary” without thinking about her son Jesus. The first three Gospels begin with the Nativity Story and the “Virgin Birth”, Mary was that “Virgin”.

Most non-Catholic Christians understand this concept; of the different ways in which we walk toward Salvation, that is unless the “way to Jesus” is “Catholic”. This is more of an anti-Catholic sentiment, influenced by anti-Catholic and “Protestant” rhetoric, than it is non-Biblical.

I hope this helps.

Peace

 

[believers]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

The Ten Commandments, also here.

Your Thoughts?

It is a sin to lie… PERIOD

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello** Namesake**,

Catholics too, believe that “only Jesus saves”. Some “found” Jesus while they were sitting in a jail cell, some in rehab, some were brought into Christianity by family or friends. Some “find” Jesus because of a serious injury or illness. The illness for example, didn’t “save them” but for those that this applies to; if it was not for their illness, they might not have “found” Jesus and might not have been “Saved”. So, to say that they were “Saved” by their illness, because that is how they “found” God, would be correct.

God works in mysterious ways and *if it wasn’t for the Grace of God, there I go, *includes the Grace of God, working through others… including Mary or the memory of Mary.

Is there a “bad way” to come to Jesus? Usually when a Catholic says that they were “saved by Mary”…What they mean is that Mary, or reflecting on Mary the person, the Mother of Jesus, they “found” Jesus and then they were “Saved”. One cannot think about the “Virgin Mary” without thinking about her son Jesus. The first three Gospels begin with the Nativity Story and the “Virgin Birth”, Mary was that “Virgin”.

Most non-Catholic Christians understand this concept; of the different ways in which we walk toward Salvation, that is unless the “way to Jesus” is “Catholic”. This is more of an anti-Catholic sentiment, influenced by anti-Catholic and “Protestant” rhetoric, than it is non-Biblical.

I hope this helps.

Peace

Then there is the Communion of the Saints and the Intercession of Mary and the Saints, this too is Biblical and another topic all by itself.

Peace

 

[inthecloud]

They do not only lie about Catholicsm, try to debate evolution with them.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

My question is - “Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?”

“Knowingly”… There is no assumption required in my question…

So, do you think that it is “a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?”

Thank you

AFAICS your original post (which was the context I replied to) assumed a good deal. In the context of the first post on the thread, I think that the reply that you quoted was appropriate.​

I don’t think one can ever assume deliberate untruthfulness - & by some theological standards, veneration of the BVM is indeed worship. This is a very tangled topic, because different Churches have different understandings of worship, & different understandings of moral blameworthiness. So one has to ask which understanding of worship the question is about, & also, through whose eyes it is being seen.

Because of these differences, what we may think is a distortion of the truth is (by some other standards) a true statement. Which is not to say that a true statement cannot be a sin - it’s quite possible to sin by telling the truth.

To be specific: Calvinist theology allows worship only to God - it does not distinguish latria from douleia: it does not even bother with them; even though we do. From this POV, worship is one & divisible & for God Alone. Catholic theology, OTOH, does make these distinctions, so it has a broader notion of worship. As a result of these differences, the hyperdulia which is accorded to Mary is by Calvinist standards worship of a creature, therefore, idolatry.

So the accusation is true & false at the same time - which affects, but does not give, an answer to your question. Sorry Other Protestants will have their theologies of worship.

 

[Jimmy_B]

AFAICS your original post (which was the context I replied to) assumed a good deal. In the context of the first post on the thread, I think that the reply that you quoted was appropriate.​

I don’t think one can ever assume deliberate untruthfulness - & by some theological standards, veneration of the BVM is indeed worship. This is a very tangled topic, because different Churches have different understandings of worship, & different understandings of moral blameworthiness. So one has to ask which understanding of worship the question is about, & also, through whose eyes it is being seen.

Because of these differences, what we may think is a distortion of the truth is (by some other standards) a true statement. Which is not to say that a true statement cannot be a sin - it’s quite possible to sin by telling the truth.

To be specific: Calvinist theology allows worship only to God - it does not distinguish latria from douleia: it does not even bother with them; even though we do. From this POV, worship is one & divisible & for God Alone. Catholic theology, OTOH, does make these distinctions, so it has a broader notion of worship. As a result of these differences, the hyperdulia which is accorded to Mary is by Calvinist standards worship of a creature, therefore, idolatry.

So the accusation is true & false at the same time - which affects, but does not give, an answer to your question. Sorry Other Protestants will have their theologies of worship.

Hello Gottle of Geer,

Someone else’s inaccurate or flawed definition of “Catholic veneration”, which is not worship and does not mean “worship” is irrelevant to this discussion. In today’s world where information is at our fingertips and the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Catholic Encyclopedia is available on-line, there is no excuse for this.

Some anti-Catholics and “Protestants” have made this up and are the ones who have tried to say that veneration and worship (in the context of Catholicism) mean one and the same thing and they do not.

Some have done this to slander Catholicism and in some cases use false rhetoric like this to pull Catholics away from their own Faith and to try and bolster their own “religious” argument. Additionally, there are some who do knowingly repeat this lie.

Veneration is a “Catholic word”, so I think the Catholic Church gets to say what it means, don’t you? Does anyone here have a Catholic source that “says’ that veneration of Mary is the same thing as worshiping God? I don’t think so.

Catholicism is a monotheistic (one God) religion. Are you implying that those who say that Catholics “worship” Mary do not know that Catholicism is a monotheistic religion? This is not a semantical argument, this is a case where some persons outside of Catholicism made-up the definition of a Catholic word, which is false and some have repeated this falsehood knowing that it was false.

The question is: “Is it a Christian sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?”

The answer is simple – Yes

My comments are of a general nature for the most part and are directed to those who this thread applies to, the persons who knowingly lie about Catholicism. I think that we can both agree, that unfortunately, there are some out there who make this thread relevant.

Peace

 

[peary]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

I consider it a sin against the Holy Spirit - the ‘unforgiveable sin’ mentioned in Scripture.

 

[gcnuss]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

Jimmy,

I think there is a lot of weight in that word “knowingly.” For many non-Catholics, what is false to a Catholic is absolute truth to those who make the statements. They have been taught that “Catholics worship Mary” and are unable to see the Catholic beliefs in any other way. Compounding that error is the associated belief that Catholics will not tell the truth about their own faith.

I, for one, accept what I am told by folks like you – that Mary is not worshiped and that Catholic teaching forbids worship of anyone other than the Triune God. I’ll turn to Martin Luther’s Small Catechism and his explanation of the Eighth Commandment:

We are to fear and love God, so that we do not tell lies about our neighbors, betray or slander them, or destroy their reputations. Instead we are to come to their defense, speak well of them, and interpret everything they do in the best possible light.

 

[JonNC]

Is it a “Christian” sin to knowingly lie about Catholicism?

For example – When non-Catholic “Christians” knowingly perpetuates the false myth that “Catholics worship Mary”; are they committing a sin? Is it a mortal sin? Are any false statements regarding Catholicism or any other religion a violation of the 8th Commandment?

The Eighth Commandment – “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor”

The Ten Commandments, also here.

Your Thoughts?

Jimmy,
I think the key word in your question is"knowingly". For me to make a statement about what Catholics believe, it is up to me to understand what, indeed, they believe.
To say “Catholics worship Mary” is not true, because ***Catholics ***don’t believe that they worship Mary. They have specific and credible explanations for what they do. If, knowing this, I continue to say “Catholics worship Mary” that would then be a lie, and a sin, even if in my belief system I consider it “worship”. What I can say is, “in my belief system we don’t venerate Mary in the same way because, for us, it appears to be worship, but we understand your point of view.”

From Luther’s Small Catechism: The 8th Commandment
You Shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
What does this mean?
Answer: We should fear and love God, and so we should not tell lies about our neighbor, nor betray, slander, or defame him, but should apologize for him, speak well of him, and interpret charitably all that he does.

 

[po18guy]

Oh I agree completely. My point is the person who receives bad information, believes it and passes it on is not guilty of the sin of lying.

Scott, wouldn’t this be more akin to the sin of detraction? I mean, at some point, we bear responsibility for what comes out of our mouths. Speaking out of knowing ignorance (now, there’s a government term!) is certainly improper, and likely sinful if the speaker does not do some checking into the truthfulness of the assertion.

The Lord is probably pretty big on vicarious lie-ability.

Christ’s peace.

 

[gcnuss]

Hi all,

Noticing that JonNC’s post followed mine by a matter of minutes, I want to say, without equivocation, that we did NOT collude on our posts although they are about as close to identical as any could be.

Great minds run on the same track!!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi all,

Noticing that JonNC’s post followed mine by a matter of minutes, I want to say, without equivocation, that we did NOT collude on our posts although they are about as close to identical as any could be.

Great minds run on the same track!!

Hi

I liked them both…But po18guy (post#36) invented a new term that I really like -

“vicarious lie-ability”

I like it almost as much as “I’m ascared” and “I’m used of it”…
Both of these may have been invented by little kids…but I like em… My son when he was first starting to talk made-up “bahinger” and he would say this whenever he was mad…We are still trying to figure out what this one means…

Peace

 

[JonNC]

Hi all,

Noticing that JonNC’s post followed mine by a matter of minutes, I want to say, without equivocation, that we did NOT collude on our posts although they are about as close to identical as any could be.

Plausible deniability

Great minds run on the same track!!

Without any bias whatsoever, I must agree.

 

[JonNC]

Hi

I liked them both…But po18guy (post#36) invented a new term that I really like -

“vicarious lie-ability”

I like it almost as much as “I’m ascared” and “I’m used of it”…
Both of these may have been invented by little kids…but I like em… My son when he was first starting to talk made-up “bahinger” and he would say this whenever he was mad…We are still trying to figure out what this one means…

Peace

Is “bahinger” said with a long “I”, or a short “I”? I want to say it right when I use it.