Is it a church or a country club with a cross on top?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JimG
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As a non religious person may I ask a question? (Well, I kinda am anyway…). With the rapid decline in religious attendance would you prefer that the Church still hold firm in all its dogma and lose adherents but those left are mostly truly committed Catholics or would you be willing to accommodate some changes to keep the Church alive? What if it gets to the point of only a few Churches left in all the US? Or UK? Etc…

Of course I know you don’t want it to come to this but if it did? Society is moving away from religion at a pretty rapid pace and Christianity wouldn’t be the first religion to die out.

Just to be clear, even though I am not religious, I don’t want to see Christianity die but I would like to see it change some of its dogmas even though many Christians resist this idea. That’s just me, though.
 
2.4 Billion Christians…I’m not quaking in my boots about Christianity dying out any time soon. No, not even in the west.
 
Pope Benedict XVI talked about how the Church would need to get smaller, before it can expand. If the Church is what it says it is, then there is no need for it to change its dogmas in order to survive.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I agree. Besides, there is, I think, a general decline in virtually EVERYTHING nowadays including faith. Only technology has improved, for better and worse.
 
Pattylt said:
With the rapid decline in religious attendance would you prefer that the Church still hold firm in all its dogma and lose adherents but those left are mostly truly committed Catholics or would you be willing to accommodate some changes to keep the Church alive?
Click to expand...
Perhaps it would depend on what these accommodations are. But dogma? No.
 
OK, I’m reading the article.

“For the past several weeks, we have been inundated with more stories about clerical sex abuse, this time emanating from the College of Cardinals. On several blogs, I weighed in to say that, as regrettable as that phenomenon is, I have not encountered a single Catholic who has left the Church over that issue”

It’s absurd to make the argument that people haven’t left over gross immorality and abuse of power (or their own personal sin), but have left over various liturgical peccadilloes.

The personal sin issue is a big deal. Modern people don’t want to feel like hypocrites, and the simplest way to avoid hypocrisy is to lower your standards.

“Eliminate altar girls, Communion-in-the-hand and extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.”

I’m not a raging enthusiast for any of these things (especially not EMHCs in a moderately-sized church or when there is an extra priest or a deacon available), but what a ridiculous mismatch between the problem and the solution.

“The vast majority of priests under the age of forty would move in this direction tomorrow. However, they are inhibited from doing so by pastors still living in the 1960s and by chancery bureaucrats who are similarly enmired.”

The 1960s were 50+ years ago. Anybody who was a young adult then is very close to retirement now.

“Fidelity to the rubrics, truly sacred liturgical music, and a deep sense of the sacred are essential if we are to bring back those who have been scandalized by abuses over the long haul, abuses which have been deeply ingrained, institutionalized and normalized.”

How about not putting a person in charge of formulating US Catholic abuse-prevention policy who had been multiply accused of abuse of power over seminarians and had himself been accused of molestation?

“The big elephant in the middle of the living room is that we lack children. Fifty years of either open dissent from Humanae Vitae or, minimally, a failure on the part of bishops and priests to teach its principles has resulted in the loss of hundreds of thousands of Catholic children—and schools need children to operate!”

Wow. At least on CAF, I believe it’s much more typical for people to say that they can’t manage Catholic school for more than 3-4 children. Even K-12 tuition for just two kids is a big deal.

“Another taboo topic is the evil of so-called public education. The public schools of the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth century were anti-Catholic, but they were not anti-Christian or anti-religious. We have witnessed a quantum leap in aggressive and hateful secularization. When was the last time you heard a priest or bishop state publicly that the government schools endanger the souls of children every day?”

Maybe because it’s not true. Public schools largely reflect local norms.

Also, what is the point of telling parents that when they don’t have realistic options to public school? It would be like giving huge sermons on the evils of non-organic produce–not very helpful to people who can’t afford organic. You just make people feel bad without giving them a way out.
 
As I said, we can try.
But humans are always going to fall short. So if someone is joining to have great interactions with humans, they will always be disappointed and they need to be aware of and prepared for that. My mom was really active in her church and knew dozens of people and yet I saw times when even she was not getting the support she needed, because humans are going to be imperfect sometimes. I’m quite sure this happens even at churches of other denominations.

Jesus, on the other hand, NEVER fails. Build your faith on Jesus and you have a strong foundation. Build it on “these people are so friendly and helpful” and you are on shaky ground, as people can leave the parish, pass away, fail at supporting you in some other respect.
 
“The clergy are afraid to make such a declaration for two reasons. First, because they are afraid to alienate parents who use the state schools or teachers who work in those institutions.”

I have to mention here that I grew up in an Evangelical Protestant family. One of the major early factors in my ultimate conversion was my Catholic high school English teacher.

“(and none can deal adequately with the massive doses of godlessness fed to its children thirty to forty hours a week)”

That’s ridiculous. At some point, public school teachers take a break from teaching “godlessness” and teach ABCs, arithmetic, speech, band, and basketball.

“And how can we forget the near-total abandonment of the Hispanics in regard to our schools?”

That may be fair in some areas, but our local Catholic elementary school is chock-full of Hispanics. It also just happens to be located in the middle of a large Hispanic city neighborhood. (Father recruits very zealously–I’ve had to fend off at least two different personal invitations to put our kids in the school.)

“and some can foolishly ask why more than half the Hispanic population has left the Church and why Hispanic vocations are almost as rare as hen’s teeth.”

Not that US Catholic churches can’t do better with ministry to Hispanics, but how common are vocations in Mexico?

“Which leads us to the financial question. In too many places, tuition is beyond the reach of the average, middle-class Catholic family.”

Right. Getting 3 or 4 kids even just through K-8 is financially a very challenging prospect. I see that our local parochial school is about $5k per kid K-6 and $5600 for 7-8 for parish members.

“Even though the financial issue can be a block for some parents, we must also observe that all too many families have priorities that are out of whack. And so, once again, where is the bishop or priest who challenges parental priorities? The silence is deafening.”

It is true that some families have priorities that are out of whack (your kid is not going to play in the NHL–sorry!). However, parents typically don’t welcome parenting advice from non-parents, so it’s understandable if priests don’t give parenting sermons. (Deo gratias!)

More in a bit.
 
SeriousQuestion said:
Pope Benedict XVI talked about how the Church would need to get smaller, before it can expand
Click to expand...
And what he meant was the people who stay would be strong and committed in their beliefs, to the point where they don’t leave over some Church teaching, over a clergy scandal, or over “nobody said hello to me at Sunday Mass”.
 
Last edited:
Pattylt said:
With the rapid decline in religious attendance would you prefer that the Church still hold firm in all its dogma and lose adherents but those left are mostly truly committed Catholics or would you be willing to accommodate some changes to keep the Church alive?
Click to expand...
The Church doesn’t make accommodations to keep up attendance. It never has done that throughout its history. We’d rather have a smaller church true to God’s teachings than a bigger church created by us making all kinds of accommodations just to get people in the seats.

Such accommodations would be unlikely to succeed in increasing attendance, and would likely cause many people who are in the Church because of its longstanding doctrines to leave.
 
“Perhaps the most damning piece of data is the suburban parishes that have hundreds and even thousands of children in religious education programs but have no school (or a school that is under-subscribed). Where is the bishop to demand that the pastor open a school?”

That would be silly to demand of every pastor.

Here’s a better idea: increase the range of programs and services that parishes host for families. Vacation Bible School is a big deal in the Bible Belt. Also, one of the homeschooling families in our community organizes a family dance course at a suburban parish that is open to kids 12 and up and adults. It’s a wonderful opportunity to learn traditional dances (including Latin dance), for young people to mix and mingle, and for socializing for homeschool families. Likewise, one of our parishes hosts a “school of music,” presumably aimed at homeschoolers in the parish.

“Interestingly enough, tiny Lefebvrist parishes or small Fundamentalist Protestant communities do sponsor schools, with minuscule resources, compared to the average Catholic parish.”

Yes, and a lot of them are terrible.

“Not infrequently, when a pastor does attempt to exercise his charism of governance, he is slapped down either by diocesan bureaucrats or by laity who have “stole-envy”.”

And sometimes, he just has a bad idea.

For example, a new pastor at our old parish wanted all CCD kids to come with a signed-by-pastor bulletin if they attended Mass elsewhere on Sunday. We no longer attend that parish…
 
I do agree that churches should stick to their guns but I also think that the decline will continue unabated. It seems one of the reasons that a lot of the “nones” give for abandoning religion is the strict dogma and not keeping up with modern society. The churches won’t budge and the pews sit empty. Christianity has never been about conforming to societies wishes and it may lead to the death of the faith. It won’t be in our lifetime but it may be in your grandchildren’s. Or, there could be another Great Awakening or aliens could land here. I was just curious how dogmatic you would be. Thanks!
 
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but the Catholic Church isn’t Walmart and if it declined down to 1 dozen faithful people meeting in a basement, I’m pretty sure we’d be cool with that, because that’s what it started out as.

You seem to have some weird idea we care about having huge numbers or being a world power. It just shows that you’re coming at this from a very worldly POV.
 
I’ve read posts to the effect of “if people are coming here to make friends and socialize, they should stay Protestant” or to those who ask why they were not welcomed at Mass “Mass is not about welcoming people, that is what Protestants do”.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Catholicism is not about feeling supported by a community.
Click to expand...
You are right, we do not rely on feelings.

We are to support our spiritual brothers and sisters, however.

CCC 804 One enters into the People of God by faith and Baptism. “All men are called to belong to the new People of God” (LG 13), so that, in Christ, “men may form one family and one People of God”

I have much Scripture in the memory, sometimes chapter and verse have been lost over the years, but, first that comes to mind is:

“Bear ye one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ”

The Scripture about being one body but many members, if one part suffers the entire body suffers.

Scripture’s command to love one another, to welcome the stranger.

This article in the Catechism teaches about the fellowship of the body of Christ http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm

Catechism (the referenced passage about fellowship is actually referenced three times in the Catechism):

2624 In the first community of Jerusalem, believers “devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and the prayers.” This sequence is characteristic of the Church’s prayer: founded on the apostolic faith; authenticated by charity; nourished in the Eucharist.
 
Right, and once again, I have no problem with churches encouraging this or starting a ministry to that effect.

I do have a problem with people whose decision to be Catholics or some other thing hinges on how “welcome” they feel.
 
Conversion is a process.

Evangelizing begins with building trust. We cannot build trust by throwing up barriers.
 
I don’t “throw up barriers” but I am not going to church to pander to people who expect a fuss to be made over them just because they showed up to attend a Mass like we are supposed to do.

Over time, I will naturally say hello or chat with people I see frequently in my prayer groups at church. It is a natural progression over time and based on a shared interest (prayer group). Those people, and myself, are attending the group every week in order to pray. Not to meet a bunch of buddies. It’s about priorities.
 
Pattylt said:
Christianity has never been about conforming to societies wishes and it may lead to the death of the faith
Click to expand...
Certain Protestant denominations allow gay marriage, divorce, contraception, and women priests. They kind of went with the flow.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top