Is it a mortal sin for look at a man that a homosexual man finds attractive?

[tlimon]

All of this points to the possibility that he was gay.

It points to the possibility that he was ugly, too. If he was gay it wouldn’t matter anyways. Read my previous post carefully.

You’re right Mathematoons. One last comment: For anyone reading this thread, please read my deconstruction of Dave’s rhetoric on post #9. Everytime Dave says anything, read post #9 and analyze Dave’s comment for yourself. If you’re really ambitious, read something far more intelligent and profound by John Heard or Eve Tushnet.

johnheard.blogspot.com/

eve-tushnet.blogspot.com/

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

Jesus, Mary, Joseph… for the love of God, save our own.

You do understand I was talking with regard to sin and lust - don’t you?

If a person who has SSA (Same Sex Attraction) is trying to live chastely, we should applaud that. They will probably get into the kingdom of heaven sooner than most of us. It is a HUGE cross to bear.

 

[mariafransisca2]

Cast your eyes down and don’t look at men in the face.

That’s what St. Peter of Alcantara did and St. Anthony Mary Claret did as their mortifications.

I do that too, I tend not to look at women in the face to avoid same sex attraction, and yes, I consider it a sin. But as long as I do not consent to it, and as soon as I find myself having a feeling of lust, I say, My Jesus Mercy. or Jesus have mercy on me!

It is a venial sin.

After 3 years of regular confession (weekly, every fornight) I don’t find that my same sex attraction goes. Or eliminated. It lessens, but it is still strong. So I don’t look at women in the face. It is a daily cross. I would wish it to be gone and have asked Jesus to heal me.

May the merciful Jesus bless you

 

[soulhunter182]

Can’t answer that for you. I can tell you that I remind myself to see Jesus in every man I meet. I am a woman who was hurt by a man. This has allowed me to heal and not to view men as people who are out to hurt me. As a lesbian who lives according to Church teaching, I also remind myself to see the Blessed Mother in every woman I meet. It’s hard to let an appreciation of beauty and feminine strength move into lust when you know Your Holy Momma is present.

Great Insight! I never thought about it that way, thanks!

 

[soulhunter182]

It really makes no difference whether or not you are attracted to men or women. If there is no intent to lust, I don’t think you committed a mortal sin.

Let’s face it, some people are just beautiful. Our eyes go back to them over and over again just because they are so amazing. I think as long as you keep your thoughts to, “wow, is he/she attractive”, you are safe.

I usually follow it up with “Glory to You O’ Lord.” After all, He created the person.

Peace,
John

Thanks John, I guess your right, some people men/women are just plain gorgeous, i think its more on appreciation on the most part.

 

[soulhunter182]

I don’t think you have committed a mortal sin of lust here from the sound of it, though in many ways you have to prayerfully decide for yourself that sort of thing at times. Also remember to simply practice modesty of the eyes whenever you can, and that we’re all imperfect humans.

Great Advice, thank man! Question though, what do you mean modesty of the eyes?

 

[soulhunter182]

I am a married heterosexual man. I, too, walk down the street and notice women that are beautiful. When this happens, I try not to engage lustful thoughts. That said, the human body is wonderful and mysterious because, after all, we are created in the image of God. I am not sure that we can fundamentally alter sex attractedness (there are people who strongly disagree and they have a good point) but we certainly can train ourselves to abstain from sex and lusting.

This might be totally heretical (so don’t bank on this), but I think that physical attractedness might serve purposes other than to bring us closer to sex. For instance, we often have underlying and subconscious physical attractions. This trait then draws us nearer to another person. By “nearer” I don’t mean physical intimacy but rather in greater friendship. Or, perhaps, we are more inclined to hear what they have to say. The fact that people listen and trust certain news casters and T.V. personalities hint at this fact - they’re face says, “Trust me.” Well, if we are drawn to this person who is of the same sex, or a woman as in my case, then perhaps we can kindle an appropriate friendship with appropriate boundaries.

Sometimes I think this just sounds like inching closer to sin. But then again, through spiritual discipline, I have come to a point where some of these women who “caught by eye” at one point have become good friends. These bonds were forged and made stronger out of our mutual sublimation of underlying sexual desires. We more or less acknowledge them for what they are, we shelved them, and now it remains simply the catalyst that, but for a moment, drew us a little closer together and forced us to see past the twinges of lust and to see each other as friends and siblings in Christ. I know this sounds strange. I’ve never really talked about this with many people. What do you all think?

And to be clear, I really don’t think you sinned Soulhunter. Also, to all those who have SSA and practice a kind of “Romo-erotic” abstinance, you all are in my prayers. You inspire me daily and you add depth and dimension to my understanding of love. Please know you have my support.

Best Regards

we certainly can train ourselves to abstain from sex and lusting → I agree, it takes enormous effort from our part but it doesn’t mean that it’s not possible.

We more or less acknowledge them for what they are, we shelved them, and now it remains simply the catalyst that, but for a moment, drew us a little closer together and forced us to see past the twinges of lust and to see each other as friends and siblings in Christ. I know this sounds strange. I’ve never really talked about this with many people. What do you all think? → Well I don’t think its strange at all. I do that sometimes, like when I see men that for me are attractive, it’s easier for me to make friends and break the ice because the appreciation and respect is already established there for me, I mean it’s easier for me to talk to these guys. I don’t know if its because of the physical attraction that I’d like to know more the person or something else. Some times, I’d be able to talk to a total stranger for hours about things and after I said goodbye and go my way, that’s usually the end of it.

And to be clear, I really don’t think you sinned Soulhunter. Also, to all those who have SSA and practice a kind of “Romo-erotic” abstinance, you all are in my prayers. You inspire me daily and you add depth and dimension to my understanding of love. Please know you have my support. ----> THANK YOU VERY MUCH tlimon, I practice chastity and abstinence because I have accept my cross, that I am one of those chosen by God to suffer for him with loneliness, longing, and continuous self denial. The Love that I would want, cannot be found here on earth anyways, it must be in heaven. Since Jesus has crucified his flesh to purchase my soul, then so should I crucify mine. In a way I feel special, because God has chosen to love me in a very different and special kind of way. I do not see SSA as a curse inflicted by God, but as an opportunity and an easier way to be a martyr for God, compared to what the early Christian martyrs had to go through.

Sometimes the world crushes me down, and I loose strength and on the verge of giving up the cross, it’s actually people like you that gives me hope and makes me remember why I am denying myself of these pleasures.

 

[soulhunter182]

Hi there, I’m going to risk controversy here I think you and other Catholic gays/ lesbians “living according to Church teaching” are onto a non-starter here.

If you want peace of mind, you cannot reconcile strict Catholcism with being gay. You should just accept who you are and how God has created you.

All this Catholic guilt trip over sexual issues is plain stupid. We all KNOW full well than many priest are closet gay or are that way inclined. Maybe St Paul and some of the other apostles were gay too God knows.

The church needs to get real and join the modern world. And be honest about sexuality. Anyway rant off.

If you want peace of mind, you cannot reconcile strict Catholcism with being gay.
----> Actually you can. Being Gay is not a sin, even in the catholic church supports that, its the homosexual acts that are mortal sins and condemn by the church.

You should just accept who you are and how God has created you.
—> I have, that God has created me this way. I have accepted that fact and everything that it entails.

All this Catholic guilt trip over sexual issues is plain stupid.
—> Its actually not stupid, it’s all about saving our souls. Its not a guilt trip, the church is just mapping out the path to heaven and how to get there, that’s all. Its like body building, if you want to get big and tones muscles, then there are certain foods that you need to give up and you need to train your body regularly to develop that goal. Often times you’d rather not do it because its tiring and inconvenient, but if you want to achieve your goal, your trainer would tell you that this is the way to do it, same with the church. The church has a goal, which is the salvation of souls and get to heaven, and this is the way to do it

We all KNOW full well than many priest are closet gay or are that way inclined.
—> Perhaps, but for those priest that has SSA and are not giving in to it and resisting the temptation everyday, they are my heroes, for they mortify themselves externally and internally on a daily basis. They do it out of Love, for God and for Souls, for their continuos suffering and self denial borne with patience and silence, would be instrumental in saving countless hardened souls from hell.

Maybe St Paul and some of the other apostles were gay too God knows.
—>Well, I really dont know anything about that, Only God knows

The church needs to get real and join the modern world. And be honest about sexuality. Anyway rant off
—> The church is honest about sexuality, the church will remain firm on its doctrine on these matters and I support the church on this. The modern world that you are saying seemed to have lost the concept on sin, and there is no way that church would align on those matters. For the catholic church is guided by the holy spirit from the snares of Satan in modernizing matters faith and morals. I will pray for you my brother in Christ that may the holy spirit enlighten your soul

 

[soulhunter182]

God Bless you, you do have a struggle. You are a hero. It is a struggle for many people to remain chaste, gay or straight. So you are a living example that it is possible.

I believe that it is okay to admire God’s creation and admit that the human body of both genders are a spectacular, astoundingly beautiful, wonderful mystery.

I also throw out kudos to the poster who is a lesbian practicing chastity.

I know many single people who struggle with this.

The cross is a plus sign, it brings you closer to Christ.

I agree, I do feel that closeness to God.

 

[soulhunter182]

You bring up a great point. If you reference my first post on the thread, I more or less talk about this issue. I think this topic is very complex. For instance, we know that insofar as attraction is not chosen, there is no sin. This is really the harbinger of this issue. If we accept that some people have biological inclinations toward SSA, then we need to accept that they will not have a real choice about their eyes and sexual urges being drawn to someone of the same sex. This happens to me as a heterosexual male. I try not to lust, but my eyes are drawn to beautiful women. I acknowledge their beauty and try to move on without falling into lust. Now, the question is, may be use that biological urge as a vehicle to a deeper moral relationship with that person with healthy boundaries?

For example, let’s say a woman flashes a beautiful kindly smile. She may or may not have meant that in any flirtatious way. She asks me directions, I give them to her because I am more inclined to give them to a person who is approachable, kind, and smiling. We end up striking a friendship. She is married as am I. We confess things about our marriages to each other and we try, because we are friends, to encourage each other in our marriages and be better spouses.

You see what I mean? Her physical beauty and kindness crashed through my defense mechanisms and a friendship began. This is not to say that I dwelled any longer on her attrativeness or her on mine. Might this be the same way for a person with biologically driven SSA? Sometimes I think it is an American style puritanism influencing the Catholic Church which is making us so skidish about physical beauty. If people had not appreciated such beauty, then the world of art would be awfully lacking.

Anyways, I’ll leave you alone. Best regards.

Hi tlimon, just an insight, im not speaking for everyone that has SSA, im only speaking for myself. The attraction that I feel as a homosexual guy when i see handsome guy i believe would be comparable to you as a heterosexual guy’s attraction to a beautiful girl. (i could be wrong though)

Picture it this way, just for argument’s sake that you’re single and straight and dinning alone in a restaurant and in front of you is a very attractive girl, like a perfect 10 model, eating, smiling and laughing, and you’re so enthralled by her beauty, that you try to look away but sometimes you took a second or a third look. It’s kinda like that for me, but with a very handsome man. Hope your not offended, I apologize in advance if you were.

 

[soulhunter182]

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with chastity if that is what he wishes to do.

My issue is with the assumption that you guys have that what he did was wrong.

The issue here, … as it is on many threads. Is that he is feeling guilty over something that is perfectly natural, and in no way is he doing anything wrong.

I belong to a church which blesses same sex relationships. I wish the Anglican church would go further and have same sex marriage too. Maybe one day it will.

The church is being dishonest by saying one thing in public and another in private. The facts are that many priests and clergy are gay, and in all likelihood having sex outside of marriage. Yet the posters on CAF operate in a parallel universe where such things dont exist.

Hi Dave B, first of all I thank you for your compassion with my struggle and in a way defending my side on the issue. I am not sure about the gay priest though, but I have heard or read somewhere i think, i cant remember at the moment, that there are catholic gay priest who are celibate, and there are some catholic gay priest who are having sex or are indulging in sexual behaviors. From my point of view is, the church is not being dishonest about it. If the priest was caught doin’ it, or someone filed a complain and the priest was proven guilty, they will sure be dealt with justice that is due to them.

 

[soulhunter182]

Cast your eyes down and don’t look at men in the face.

That’s what St. Peter of Alcantara did and St. Anthony Mary Claret did as their mortifications.

I do that too, I tend not to look at women in the face to avoid same sex attraction, and yes, I consider it a sin. But as long as I do not consent to it, and as soon as I find myself having a feeling of lust, I say, My Jesus Mercy. or Jesus have mercy on me!

It is a venial sin.

After 3 years of regular confession (weekly, every fornight) I don’t find that my same sex attraction goes. Or eliminated. It lessens, but it is still strong. So I don’t look at women in the face. It is a daily cross. I would wish it to be gone and have asked Jesus to heal me.

May the merciful Jesus bless you

Cast your eyes down and don’t look at men in the face.
----> I tried this, it’s very hard and I often bumb into things and other people

It lessens, but it is still strong
----> Our crosses are different I guess, Mine doesn’t lessen nor go away, and i believe that this will never change until the day that I die. True, it is a daily cross that you and I need to carry everyday, by the moment that we wake up and by the time that we fall asleep, t with us. It is very difficult, sometimes i say “For the Love of Jesus…” and I would turn away. I was walking towards the train station one day and I saw an attractive guy on the steps, and I looked at his face and then this thought came to me “For the Love of Jesus…”, it came into my mind 3 times before I turned my gaze away. Don’t know where the thought came from actually.

 

[soulhunter182]

You do understand I was talking with regard to sin and lust - don’t you?

If a person who has SSA (Same Sex Attraction) is trying to live chastely, we should applaud that. They will probably get into the kingdom of heaven sooner than most of us. It is a HUGE cross to bear.

Thanks for your kind words, im not sure if its something to be applaud at, I mean we try to live chastely but we still fall sometimes. The internal struggle is very terrible to bear sometimes. Its a huge cross to bear I agree, but I don’t think that we’ll get to heaven sooner than everyone, and sometimes I really doubt if we’ll be able to reach heaven at all. Sometimes that temptations are so strong that I find myself failing and giving in.

This is a Huge Cross true, but i believe that there are other people who’s crosses are much bigger and heavier and suffer more and are able to bear it in silence and solitude. Those are the people that I feeel would reach heaven sooner than the rest of us

 

[soulhunter182]

Hi guys, Let’s try show compassion and kindness with our replies with Dave B, I kinda feel that he’s not catholic (I could be wrong though) and his view about the faith could be a little bit different than ours, but he seemed to have good intentions, and I respect that. Lets just pray for the enlightenment from the holy spirit to work on our souls and allow us to see the truth and eventually lead us to the right path to reach Christ. Peace Guys!

 

[Bwtby]

You do understand I was talking with regard to sin and lust - don’t you?

If a person who has SSA (Same Sex Attraction) is trying to live chastely, we should applaud that. They will probably get into the kingdom of heaven sooner than most of us. It is a HUGE cross to bear.

But you said it doesn’t matter what gender one is attracted too.

http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/489/pleasem.jpg

 

[tlimon]

Hope your not offended, I apologize in advance if you were.

No, I’m not offended at all. I couldn’t say for sure, but that’s how I thought SSA individuals were wired. We’re not really any different in that regard.

I do think that God makes people beautiful for a purpose. Like I mentioned before about kind, smiling people being approachable, I think there is something about physical attraction that does not have to do with lust or sex that God intended beauty to be used for.

There is a SOLT sister in Seattle who does a lot of talks about theology of the body (Sr. Miriam Heidland - I think). She was/is super pretty. She was a varsity college volleyball player and her boyfriend was the star quarterback and all that jazz. Well, eventually it left her feeling spiritually dry and she turned back to the faith.

Long story short, she gave a speech about Arch Bishop Fulton Sheen. While on a flight, Bishop sheen observed a strikingly beautiful flight attendant. He pondered her beauty (not lustfully I assume) and as she walked by he told her, “Let me know when you wish to use your beauty for God.” He gave her his contact information and parted ways. Some time later the woman called him and said, “I’m ready.” Bishop Sheen had her go on a mission to a leper colony where she became, quite possibly, the only beautiful person the lepers had ever seen.

I’ve had interesting experiences with perfect 10s myself. I’ve made pretty good friends with some of them. There was a chearleader during my undergrad who was a super smart polisci major. I took a lot of classes with her and we struck up a friendship. Basically, she kind of hated being beautiful. People oggled her, expected sex from her, thought she was “stuck up”, unintelligent, ect. With all the baggage that comes with being so pretty, it seems God has more use for a person such as that other than modeling careers, chear leading, and their pick of successful and attractive men.

I can’t help but think that there can be an innocent underlying pull created by physical human beauty that escapes the pull of sex and lust. Or, even though it contributes to the pull toward sex and lust, that the pull can be sublimated turned toward something pleasing to God.

But meh, what do I know?

 

[tlimon]

Hi guys, Let’s try show compassion and kindness with our replies with Dave B, I kinda feel that he’s not catholic (I could be wrong though) and his view about the faith could be a little bit different than ours, but he seemed to have good intentions, and I respect that. Lets just pray for the enlightenment from the holy spirit to work on our souls and allow us to see the truth and eventually lead us to the right path to reach Christ. Peace Guys!

You’re right. The people I deal with in my world make me defensive and searching for alterior motives. My analysis of Dave B’s comments left me curious. They were structured in such a way that they were nearly perfectly vague and ambiguous. Generally, rhetoric is not that “perfectly” anything without time and consideration put in to make one’s comments intentionally misleading. Thus, I questioned his sincerety. Alternatively, I could be giving Dave B too much credit. I will take your concerns to heart. Peace to you, too.

 

[soulhunter182]

No, I’m not offended at all. I couldn’t say for sure, but that’s how I thought SSA individuals were wired. We’re not really any different in that regard.

I do think that God makes people beautiful for a purpose. Like I mentioned before about kind, smiling people being approachable, I think there is something about physical attraction that does not have to do with lust or sex that God intended beauty to be used for.

There is a SOLT sister in Seattle who does a lot of talks about theology of the body (Sr. Miriam Heidland - I think). She was/is super pretty. She was a varsity college volleyball player and her boyfriend was the star quarterback and all that jazz. Well, eventually it left her feeling spiritually dry and she turned back to the faith.

Long story short, she gave a speech about Arch Bishop Fulton Sheen. While on a flight, Bishop sheen observed a strikingly beautiful flight attendant. He pondered her beauty (not lustfully I assume) and as she walked by he told her, “Let me know when you wish to use your beauty for God.” He gave her his contact information and parted ways. Some time later the woman called him and said, “I’m ready.” Bishop Sheen had her go on a mission to a leper colony where she became, quite possibly, the only beautiful person the lepers had ever seen.

I’ve had interesting experiences with perfect 10s myself. I’ve made pretty good friends with some of them. There was a chearleader during my undergrad who was a super smart polisci major. I took a lot of classes with her and we struck up a friendship. Basically, she kind of hated being beautiful. People oggled her, expected sex from her, thought she was “stuck up”, unintelligent, ect. With all the baggage that comes with being so pretty, it seems God has more use for a person such as that other than modeling careers, chear leading, and their pick of successful and attractive men.

I can’t help but think that there can be an innocent underlying pull created by physical human beauty that escapes the pull of sex and lust. Or, even though it contributes to the pull toward sex and lust, that the pull can be sublimated turned toward something pleasing to God.

But meh, what do I know?

I happen to agree on that regard. I do feel that God created beauty for a purpose, what ever it is I ain’t got a clue. But I also agree that not all about physical beauty pulls you into lust or sex, although sometimes it comes. But as for me, most of the time its just appreciation. Like when I see a guy for example that has nice eyes, or a nice nose, or a nice face, i find myself quite font of looking at the fellow because of something that I admire and something that’s nice to look at. Contrary to popular belief, guys with SSA like me, we don’t think about sex or lust over men all the time, specially if your catholic. Specially for the people that are aiming for growth of certain virtues. With God’s grace, some of us are able to look at men with innocent appreciation of male beauty. It’s like when you see a very cute and cuddly puppy right, It’s so cute and nice to look at, but you wouldn’t be thinking about doing it with the puppy? I guess by now, you would know how the devil works, it would twist and corrupt every innocent thing into evil perversions. Like temptations would just suddenly pop up in m mind. This happens a lot, even when im not looking at Men, specially when Im in prayer or at mass. My mind would suddenly be filled with blasphemies and sexual perversions, its really terrible to bear and reject sometimes, and I need to reject it right away so I don’t commit any mortal sin in thought. I find myself pulling out enormous amount of effort to constantly reject these thoughts throughout the mass that I unable to focus on the mass itself. Grrr I wouldn’t wish this on anyone to have, even for my enemies

 

[soulhunter182]

You’re right. The people I deal with in my world make me defensive and searching for alterior motives. My analysis of Dave B’s comments left me curious. They were structured in such a way that they were nearly perfectly vague and ambiguous. Generally, rhetoric is not that “perfectly” anything without time and consideration put in to make one’s comments intentionally misleading. Thus, I questioned his sincerety. Alternatively, I could be giving Dave B too much credit. I will take your concerns to heart. Peace to you, too.

I do not wish to offend anyone with what I wrote. I just felt that he’s getting his *** kicked by everyone, including me , If we felt that he wasn’t sincere, it was not up to us to make that judgement, it is up to God. Our job is to make him see Jesus radiating through us. I mean we are catholic, and we do not fight fire with fire., that’s just my point of view though I’m just speaking for myself, If he did had an anterior motive, and if I had been offended with what he wrote for example, i would suffered the hurt in silence and I would try to explain things to him without offending him. I got that technique from the little flower, and it works wonders. Because of that little hurt, I now would have a small offering that I can give to Jesus that has any real value to pay for my past sins. Our job is to try to educate or enlighten him in the most loving and gentle way, and the rest is up to the holy spirit. It doesn’t matter if he was rude to us or anything, what matters most was that we weren’t rude to him, and when the Father see’s that in secret. He might just give us a spiritual pat on the back. (Well, I’d like to think so…)
One main thing that I have learned through out the years of having SSA, bearing all the suffering, contradictions, limitations, humiliations, discrimination etc. was that…God had created me this way, and before I was even conceived in the womb, he already knew me,and he knew that I would be this way and He gave me this HUGE CROSS to bear, because he gave me a greater opportunity to love more and forgive more. (i’m not sure about the other people with SSA) If Gay people would just accept their cross, their eyes would be opened as to why we have it in the first place. Am I still making sense? Maybe its the caffeine talking already hehehe

 

[larsenl1]

this is a good blog, gay man living celibate and happy.

www.stevegershom.com