Is it a possibility that a validly baptized Catholic dies in the state of mortal sin and ends up in hell?

[clem456]

Hello Clem and everyone in the CAF,

Thank you for your post and the posts of the other members of the CAF. I will try to answer all replies.

I cannot make it through the mountain of stuff you have posted.
To have a conversation we would have to take point by point.

I accept this statement from the CCC:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396

Predestination does not negate free will. Anything we say must take this into account.

 

[clem456]

A baptized person who leaves this life in mortal sin is dead. Period.
The answer to the predestination question is that he/she was not predestined to heaven, because she ended up in hell. A person in hell was never predestined to heaven. God sees these things in their wholeness, we do not.

Let me observe that it seems you have formed a conclusion and are searching for pieces of Church teaching to confirm your conclusion, rather than letting the Church speak for itself, in it’s unity of the truth.

 

[MPat]

As long as the predestined to final salvation/Heaven and the predestined to initial salvation/grace, being both members the Body of Christ, which is the state of grace and it is the Church, they are both equal members.

Wait! Almost everything else you wrote is supported by some citation. But this point is not. So, where did you get the idea that sets “[people in] the state of grace” and “[members of] the Church” are equal?

I’d say that’s where your reasoning went wrong. For example, let’s look just a little further:

When I just recently read the following:

PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR LEGISLATIVE TEXTS
ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA
Vatican City, 13 March 2006 Prot. N. 10279/2006

1. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection. End quote.

I said; WOW!! … Nothing at all can remove a person from the BODY OF CHRIST (which is the STATE OF GRACE) and it is the CHURCH.

As you can see, this conclusion you made does depend on that unsupported assumption…

In that case the things you wote about predestination (true or false) are simply irrelevant.

 

[krbray]

So, where did you get the idea that sets “[people in] the state of grace” and “[members of] the Church” are equal?

…this conclusion you made does depend on that unsupported assumption…

MPat, you nailed it. The assumption is unsupported by the referenced letter to Pope Benedict XVI.

If one reads the entirety of ACTUS FORMALIS DEFECTIONIS AB ECCLESIA CATHOLICA, they will see that its purpose is to address the issue of one who chooses to reject the Catholic Church or, otherwise, abandon it. According to paragraph number 2, such an act would result in “the rupture of those bonds of communion – faith, sacraments, and pastoral governance – that permit the Faithful to receive the life of grace within the Church.”

Clearly, this document does not equate being a member of the Body of Christ with being in a state of grace.

Paragraph 7 simply states what we profess in the Nicene Creed when we say we believe in ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins and affirms its permanence, so that if one separates himself or herself from the Church, he or she could turn back toward a life and state of grace without having to be baptized again.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Departed from topic and closed.