Is it a sin to attend/celebrate the Passover Seder?

[Iotaunum]

Our Church teaches that the Jews are STILL his chose people.

Some of you REALLY need to learn about what other religions actually do, and about our own theology.

I have to correct you on this one since it is so blatant. The Catholic Church most certianly ***does not ***teach that the Jews (who, needless to say, reject Christ) are His Chosen people. A cursory reading of Galations will suffice to refute this. I cannot imagine how you came to this conclusion. The Jews were the chosen people. This does not mean they are the chosen people. To be a bit more pedantic; the Jews were never the Chosen People really - the Israelites were. There is a distinction. Modern Jews are descened from those who were converted *by force * in the second century. These “converts” transformed Judaism into pharisaism and Talmudism and eventually into modern Judaism.

The Church is the new and true Israel. Therefore, the Church Christ founded and it alone is the new People of God. The modern Jew who rejects Christ is not the same as the Jews from the time of Christ. Even logic doctates that those who reject God and His New Covenant, are not His chosen people. The covenant of Abraham continues, in Christ, but that of Moses does not. This is why the Church has for so many centuries prayed for the “faithless Jew”, so that they would be converted and enter into the new Israel, and become Gods chosen people - menbers of the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Alexander Roman,

Which rites are you referring to?

I’ve read that in the Early Church, the process of catechizing pagans into JudeoChristianity took as long as a year.

Yes indeed and this was basically to wean them off their pagan way of life (the root of “pagan” simply means “village” as paganism tended to survive in the villages whereas Christianity became popular in the cities of the old Roman empire).

Christians adapted certain symbols and rites through a process of Christian inculturation, as we know. The Roman basilica or royal court was where the magistrates heard cases and meted out justice. The early Christian Church liked the large structures and so adapted them in honour of the Royal King of Kings. We see tension already in the Acts of the Apostles between the Hebrew Christians and those who converted from paganism and the two constitued two ritual communities that were different from one another. The question that was settled by the Apostles was whether converts to Christianity from paganism needed to become Jews first as a kind of interim measure before receiving Christian baptism. The answer was no, they did not.

The same process of inculturation took place with the Celtic missionaries who were especially adept at “baptizing” pagan Celtic practices (e.g. St Columba of Iona and St Ninian of Galloway - the latter allowed Christian services to be held within the stone circles). Christianity was inculturated variously in other places. I did not know until recently that the Jesuits had developed an Algonquin rite for the Natives among whom they preached. As a Ukrainian Catholic, we have traditions that no other Church has that comes directly from our pre-Christian past. They are part of our cultural identity and we guard them zealously . . .

Do you like that pagan food, kolbassa?

Alex

 

[wisdomseeker]

See, I am still not seeing where the Church teaches/taught that it is a sin to attend a Seder.

I think you may see a more general term about participating on things that are not Catholic. I would think that if the celebration invokes that Christ is not the Son of God and has not come yet, I would be reluctant to be part of. this is just my opinion. Now we know that Seder is a celebration of the Jews freedom from slavery from Egypt, I would think that if the minds of those celebrating also remembers that today we have received another Command which is the celebration of the bondage of sins by Christ Jesus, then I would think it should be ok. I know that participattion in things that are not Christ’s center, it is not for us to be part of. It would be not ok, I would think that to be part of something that denies the Son of God, it is a grave sin. St Paul says that those who deny Christ is already condemned.

 

[Iotaunum]

Do you have a link to the document?

Mortalium Animos - Pope Pius XI -

“10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics”

I suggest you read the whole document. It will explain the reasons for the above statement in detail.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I have to correct you on this one since it is so blatant. The Catholic Church most certianly ***does not ***teach that the Jews (who, needless to say, reject Christ) are His Chosen people. A cursory reading of Galations will suffice to refute this. I cannot imagine how you came to this conclusion. The Jews were the chosen people. This does not mean they are the chosen people. To be a bit more pedantic; the Jews were never the Chosen People really - the Israelites were. There is a distinction. Modern Jews are descened from those who were converted *by force * in the second century. These “converts” transformed Judaism into pharisaism and Talmudism and eventually into modern Judaism.

The Church is the new and true Israel. Therefore, the Church Christ founded and it alone is the new People of God. The modern Jew who rejects Christ is not the same as the Jews from the time of Christ. Even logic doctates that those who reject God and His New Covenant, are not His chosen people. The covenant of Abraham continues, in Christ, but that of Moses does not. This is why the Church has for so many centuries prayed for the “faithless Jew”, so that they would be converted and enter into the new Israel, and become Gods chosen people - menbers of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Can you provide even one footnote to show that the Catholic Church does not acknowledge the Jews as God’s Chosen People?

As for rejection of Christ, yes, Jews don’t accept Christ as the Messiah etc. But to truly reject Christ is to first come to recognize Him as the Divine Son of God (which is largely the work of grace) and to then knowingly reject Him as such.

Those who do not accept Christ because of any number of circumstances cannot be said to be morally culpable in the rejection of Christ.

Alex

 

[baylee]

St John Chrysostom obviously thought so.

So was he speaking Church doctrine or his personal opinion?

 

[PJM]

=baylee;7624947]My husband is telling me that Pre-Vatican II that it was a sin to attend any non-Catholic (“pagan”) ceremonies, etc. Is there Catholic teaching that supports this prior to Vatican II? Also, what about current teaching…did it really change?

I can certainly see his point that we are taking part in a ceremony that denies Christ. Yet, I am torn on this.

Catholism is rooted in Jewish Religious practices. Christ HIMSELF celebrated a Sadar meal’ AND our MASS was instituted at a Sadar meal. Attending one is FINE; so long as it does not replace a Grave Moral Obligation for Mass.

It falls under the heading of “learning OUR faith.”

I’ve taken youth groups several times and it’s quite beautiful and moving. we have also had the Jewish youth group to a special Mass, where Father explained both what was going on and it’s relation to Jewish traditons.

 

[Robert_Burns]

So was he speaking Church doctrine or his personal opinion?

Well he is a SAINT in Heaven being elevated by GOD , a Doctor of the Church - the Author of a form of Liturgy and worthy of Veneration for 1,604 years so his word carries weight. Unles you know better. I am open minded. State your case.

 

[Robert_Burns]

Can you provide even one footnote to show that the Catholic Church does not acknowledge the Jews as God’s Chosen People?

As for rejection of Christ, yes, Jews don’t accept Christ as the Messiah etc. But to truly reject Christ is to first come to recognize Him as the Divine Son of God (which is largely the work of grace) and to then knowingly reject Him as such.

Those who do not accept Christ because of any number of circumstances cannot be said to be morally culpable in the rejection of Christ.

Alex

So is it or is it not necessary that they convert?

 

[Iotaunum]

Can you provide even one footnote to show that the Catholic Church does not acknowledge the Jews as God’s Chosen People?

Are you serious? Do you, as a Catholic, really believe that modern Jews (not the same as the Jews from the time of our Lord) are God’s Chosen People? The Catholic Church is the New Israel. Those who who believe in Christ and follow Him are God’s chosen people - not the modern Jews who reject Him. Colossians 3:11 - “Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.”

Acts 10:36 - “God sent the word to the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all.)”

Acts 13:23 - “Of this man’s seed God according to his promise, hath raised up to Israel a Saviour, Jesus”

The covenant of the Chosen People was fulfilled in Christ. Those who rejected Him broke from the covenant which God had established with their ancesors.

Those who do not accept Christ because of any number of circumstances cannot be said to be morally culpable in the rejection of Christ.
Alex

Whether or not one is morally culpable is not the issue. The rejection is material in the very least.

 

[Seamus_L]

Curious as to why this question turned up on the Traditional forum. If the question is, Do Traditional Catholics attend seders ? The best answer I could give is a firm no.

 

[baylee]

Curious as to why this question turned up on the Traditional forum. If the question is, Do Traditional Catholics attend seders ? The best answer I could give is a firm no.

I thought the Traditional Forum would have a good grasp on what was taught prior to Vatican II…including actual links to documents, etc. Unfortunately only one post provided that…and I have yet to read it completely. My initial reaction to what I have read, however, is that it doesn’t seem to prove the assertion that Catholic doctrine taught that it’s a sin to attend a Jewish Seder.

 

[baylee]

Well he is a SAINT in Heaven being elevated by GOD , a Doctor of the Church - the Author of a form of Liturgy and worthy of Veneration for 1,604 years so his word carries weight. Unles you know better. I am open minded. State your case.

Actually, I have heard over and over again (especially with the most recent threads regarding the beatification of JPII) that saints can and do make mistakes. So just because he is a saint does not necessarily mean that he was correct in everything he stated.

 

[Lormar]

Curious as to why this question turned up on the Traditional forum. If the question is, Do Traditional Catholics attend seders ? The best answer I could give is a firm no.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Well he is a SAINT in Heaven being elevated by GOD , a Doctor of the Church - the Author of a form of Liturgy and worthy of Veneration for 1,604 years so his word carries weight. Unles you know better. I am open minded. State your case.

Actually, the Fathers can make mistakes and St John Chrysostom did accuse the Virgin Mary of venial sins.

So the Church does know better.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

My thoughts exactly.

I do know RC’s of the Tridentine tradition who have Seders in their homes, yes.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

So is it or is it not necessary that they convert?

If they come to know Christ as the Divine Son of God - they will convert.

If you are saying that a pious Jew who lives his faith cannot go to heaven - well then the Church vigorously denies this. In any event, that is between God and them.

We are also called to respect other people’s religious convictions. It is because of the historic animosity between Christians and Jews that the true Face of the Lord Jesus and His Sacred Heart has been hidden from the Jewish people who, as a result, will cringe when they even see a Cross.

Instead of valuing them and protecting them, Christians helped persecute them.

That is not how to bring people to Christ.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Are you serious? Do you, as a Catholic, really believe that modern Jews (not the same as the Jews from the time of our Lord) are God’s Chosen People? The Catholic Church is the New Israel. Those who who believe in Christ and follow Him are God’s chosen people - not the modern Jews who reject Him. Colossians 3:11 - “Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.”

Acts 10:36 - “God sent the word to the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all.)”

Acts 13:23 - “Of this man’s seed God according to his promise, hath raised up to Israel a Saviour, Jesus”

The covenant of the Chosen People was fulfilled in Christ. Those who rejected Him broke from the covenant which God had established with their ancesors.

Whether or not one is morally culpable is not the issue. The rejection is material in the very least.

I am very serious. A Jew is anyone who accepts and practices Judaism - your take on the difference between modern Jews and ancient Jews is completely misinformed sir!

One cannot, I must repeat, reject Christ when one does not know Christ to be the Divine Son of God. There are millions of people who do not, cannot, accept this for a myriad of reasons. To say that these milliions of people are morally culpable in somehow “rejecting” Christ is simply nonsense in terms of moral or any other kind of theology. It is entirely possible for someone, however, to know Christ and then later to reject Him - that is entirely different and would most readily apply to practicing Christians.

So moral culpability is ALWAYS the issue. And the Catholic Church today accepts the Jews as God’s Chosen People, even though it understands itself as the New Israel.

St Paul himself wrote that it is to the Gentiles to enter the Church and afterwards the Jews - who will then take their place of primacy.

There are plenty of Catholics and Christians who say they know Christ and are baptized but who might be in danger of being rejected by Christ at the Last Judgement either because they have left the Catholic Church to join a sect or the “cult of indifference” or another reason.

We should be very concerned for these in the first instance. If we Catholics were what God has always wanted us to be, I think people would be beating the doors down to join, like postulants at a zealous Religious Order.

These are matters you might wish to speak with your priest about. I’ve certainly spent many hours speaking with Catholic bishops and theologians at our university here on this subject.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I think you may see a more general term about participating on things that are not Catholic. I would think that if the celebration invokes that Christ is not the Son of God and has not come yet, I would be reluctant to be part of. this is just my opinion. Now we know that Seder is a celebration of the Jews freedom from slavery from Egypt, I would think that if the minds of those celebrating also remembers that today we have received another Command which is the celebration of the bondage of sins by Christ Jesus, then I would think it should be ok. I know that participattion in things that are not Christ’s center, it is not for us to be part of. It would be not ok, I would think that to be part of something that denies the Son of God, it is a grave sin. St Paul says that those who deny Christ is already condemned.

Actually, at all the Seders I’ve attended at my Catholic friends’ homes and at two parish halls up here - Christ was/is most assuredly acknowledged as our Lord, God and Saviour!

I think some here may be confusing the idea of a Seder held by Catholics with a Seder at a Jewish friend’s home. The two are completely different.

I have a Jewish uncle and have held a Christian Seder at which he attended. I had Christian icons of Old Testament Saints in the room and wore my Cross (and a Star of David) on top of my sweater for the occasion. He thanked me for bringing me in touch with his Jewish heritage.

When the same uncle came through a very difficult operation in which a piece of his neckbone was surgically removed and doctors said there was the chance he would not survive or else ever walk again (an injury he sustained during the Korean War), he turned to me in hospital and said, “I pulled through because the Lord Jesus was standing next to me - I saw Him there looking at me, you have to believe me.”

Perhaps we forget that we must be all things to all people. To the Jews, I am a Jew.

Alex

 

[gatewood1988]

Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) in his book “Behold the Pierced One” states “…it seems to me, this Passover celebration which has come down to us from the nomads, via Israel and through Christ, also has (in the deepest sense) an eminently political significance. We as a nation, we in Europe, need to go back to our spiritual roots, lest we become lost in self-destruction. This feast needs to become a family celebration once again, for it is the family that is the real bastion of creation and humanity. Passover is a summons, urgently reminding us that the family is the living home in which humanity is nurtured, which banishes chaos and futility, and which must be protected as such. But we must add that the family can only be this sphere of humanity, this bastion of creation, if it is under the banner of the Lamb, if it is protected by the power of faith which comes from the love of Jesus Christ…”

From the words of the Holy Father himself. My husband and I were invited to go to his friend’s place for one this season.