Is it a sin to attend/celebrate the Passover Seder?

[Alexander_Roman]

Just don’t go and do not worry about erring.

THe Catholic church is the FOnt and SUmmit of all truth: If they got it, we got MORE. Don’t chase after anyone else’s religion when the one established by Christ is BETTER than all of them.

Yep, BETTER.

Yet, this has nothing to do with the private celebration of Passover Seder by Christians, either at home or at a parish hall.

For Christians, the Passover Seder is replete with Christian symbolism. And I know Hebrew Catholics who celebrate it as part of their heritage.

There are many Catholic Rites who have adapted many traditions from even pagan sources by giving them Christian symbolism.

Catholic parishes in Toronto hold such Seders. I understand where you are coming from, but feel that where you are coming from is wrong.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Why doesn’t it surprise me that it took a Jew to get this?

Amen!

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Honestly, I think the only part of the seder that I could see as objectionable to our Catholic Faith is at the end of the seder when the youngest in the family opens the front door for Elijah (who is believed to announce the coming of the Messiah). We, of course, believe he has already arrived. Since I am not technically taking part in that, I’m not so sure I’ve done anything wrong. When it’s happening, I am definitely thinking that this is pointless now. I think it’s enough that my Jewish family already knows that I disagree on this matter.

Otherwise, all I see the in the seder is the re-telling of a Bible story…one that we tell at the Easter Vigil every year.

And even here we Catholics also celebrate Christ’s Coming at Advent as we liturgically relive the time before our Lord came to us in Bethlehem. And also during Lent as we move toward Calvary and the Resurrection. This does not mean our Lord hasn’t already come etc. But this is for our benefit and our spiritual growth.

By the argumentation presented here by some, we shouldn’t even by reading the Hebrew Scriptures/Old Testament!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

THe passover wasn’t Jesus’ goal; he instituted the Mass. THAT is our passover, not some ceremonial holdover from another religion.

Well, Judaism is very close to Christianity and in a way that all other religions are not. Two thousand years ago, we Christians acclaim Judaism as the true Religion at that time.

I think we can afford a bit more respect for it than you have demonstrated.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

1. Source? A quick search found no relevant hits. There are plenty of trads who criticize Pope John Paul II so you would think this would be discussed somewhere.
2. Even if he did, so what? Do you think that everything the pope does must be licit and not sinful? Sorry, but the pope has to go to Confession like everybody else, he isn’t perfect.

This points to a major problem with some aspects of Catholic Traditionalism i.e. that it seems to want to be more infallible than a Pope.

This could be seen as a form of “Inner Light Piety” which is not a good thing.

I would hope you would publicly retract your statement above about Pope John Paul II in the spirit of Lenten repentance. If your comment is left to stand by this forum, then I would rather be on one where real Catholicism, faithful to the Pope, is taught.

Alex

 

[Crusading_Canuk]

Well, Judaism is very close to Christianity and in a way that all other religions are not. Two thousand years ago, we Christians acclaim Judaism as the true Religion at that time.

I think we can afford a bit more respect for it than you have demonstrated.

Alex

Ok then, Christians have trditionaly been forbidden to attend Jewish holidays and festivals since the days of the Early Church. Could you please provide some document from an Apostolic authority stating it is now ok and if possible something backing up earlier statements about the Jews still being the “Chosen People”?

Thanks,
CC

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Ok then, Christians have trditionaly been forbidden to attend Jewish holidays and festivals since the days of the Early Church. Could you please provide some document from an Apostolic authority stating it is now ok and if possible something backing up earlier statements about the Jews still being the “Chosen People”?

Thanks,
CC

Dear Fellow Canuck,

Actually, I didn’t think we were talking about attending Jewish holidays and festivals. That is a separate matter entirely.

We were talking about Catholics and other Christians holding a “Christian Passover” seder in their homes and/or church halls which occurs in Toronto for one place.

The latter has nothing to do with the former, as our Jewish friends will readily attest. My Particular Church observes traditions taken directly from our cultural pagan past, at Christmas and Easter in particular. Even “Easter” is the name of a pagan goddess, as are the names of the various days of the week. These have all been Christianized. That is what I thought we were talking about. I am not interested in attending anything else.

As for the Chosen People, I think a reading of St Paul would suffice to show the relationship the Jewish People continue to have to God, that God does not change or take back His gifts etc.

I believe there is something about the place of the Jewish People in the Vatican II documents, promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1965 as well. But I think Romans, beginning in Chapter 9, show the tremendous esteem in which St Paul holds his Jewish ancestry, something we would do well to emulate.

Shalom Aleichem!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Here is a link to the online magazine of the Association of Hebrew Catholics:

www.hebrewcatholic.org/files/THC87.pdf

There they show Christians participating in a Seder and there is much scholarly work there referenced to show the singular relationship of the Jews to Christianity and the Catholic Church.

I find this fascinating and am willing to learn more about this and the Jewish roots of our faith as Christians.

This is a journey that I believe all Catholics and Jews should take together.

Alex

 

[SouthpawLink]

Here is a link to the online magazine of the Association of Hebrew Catholics:

www.hebrewcatholic.org/files/THC87.pdf

There they show Christians participating in a Seder and there is much scholarly work there referenced to show the singular relationship of the Jews to Christianity and the Catholic Church.

I find this fascinating and am willing to learn more about this and the Jewish roots of our faith as Christians.

This is a journey that I believe all Catholics and Jews should take together.

Alex

I scanned the article and there were no references to any popes approving the so-called Christian Seders.

What’s more, the Jews are no longer the chosen people; baptized Catholics are (a ‘new’ name for the Church is the People of God). The Old covenant has been replaced by the New.

“God, according to the Prophet, will replace the broken Sinai covenant with a New Covenant that cannot be broken . . . The conditional covenant, which depended on man’s faithful observance of the Law, is replaced by the unconditional covenant in which God binds himself irrevocably” (Cardinal Ratzinger, Many Religions, One Covenant, p. 63).

 

[spunjalebi]

I was told that Jews were the ones who did the choosing.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

So, Pilgrim, to clarify your position based on 1917 Canon Law: it is sinful for me to attend my family’s seder, but it’s not sinful for me to go to my Jewish mother’s funeral?

Oh, and does current Canon Law still state what you have quoted?

From my reading of the 1917 CIC (and I am far from being a canon lawyer), that would be correct since you would have a grave moral obligation to attend your own mother’s funeral but it is not necessary to attend your family’s seder.

The 1983 CIC does not contain the same law. However, you really should consider the historical teachings of the Church in regards to Judaizing. It’s kind of like veiling. The 1983 CIC doesn’t mention it but it’s the historical custom of the Church so thus it should be done (plus, it’s in Scripture).

The general rule is that Catholics cannot participate in the rites of false religions. This would include everything from Protestants to Jews to Hindus. There are, however, exceptions based on the idea of passive participation for a grave reason.

As with all things, a good priest/spiritual director/bishop can help you make the correct decision.
Mt 10:34-38:

Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not up his cross, and followeth me, is not worthy of me.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Our parish has a seder meal every year during Holy Week. I think it is fine that we attend because Jesus atttended a pass over meal. It remembers the night that the Angel of death passed over the jewish people and saved their first born. Our heritage is in the Jewish people, Jesus,Mary and Joseph were all Jewish.

Would you sacrifice a Passover lamb if the Jewish temple was still standing? Wouldn’t that strike you as blasphemy against the true Passover Lamb?

Wouldn’t Jesus have done something different other than have a pass over meal if it was going to be considered bad for future believers?

You mean like celebrate Mass?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I go to a Sedar every year…I mainly go for the food…I just love Gefilte Fish and the brisket is to die for!! Just wish they would serve some better wine…I don’t go for that sweet Koser stuff!

I can’t believe there is over 4 pages of arguments as to if its ok to go to a Sedar…amazing!

1Cor 10:21:

You cannot drink the chalice of the Lord, and the chalice of devils: you cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord, and of the table of devils.

.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

This points to a major problem with some aspects of Catholic Traditionalism i.e. that it seems to want to be more infallible than a Pope.

Sorry, but the pope can speak infallibly under certain conditions. This is far from saying he is impeccable – that he cannot sin – or that everything he does or says 1is right!

Under your definition, we should say that it’s alright to fornicate, engage in simony and nepotism, hire prostitutes, have sex with boys, commit adultery, etc. After all, isn’t everything a pope does right? You wouldn’t want to be seen as “more Catholic than the pope”…

 

[AndyP2010]

CCC paragraph 839

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

Romans Chapter 11 : 24 - 29

For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.
4 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,
and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;
and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.
For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

This seems to suggest that they remain God’s Chosen people. Try reading the whole chapter.

Also we must be careful when quoting popes from earlier times, that we don’t take them out of context like protestants often do with the Bible. Often these statements where made in order to ward against false conversions of Jews who were trying to avoid persecution.

 

[Gregory_I]

Respectfully:

It just all sounds like another attempt on the part of the “Modern” laity to try and do something “priest-like” since we are obviously not all ordained priests. Why go out of your way to do something in this singularly jewish fashion? Why not simply go to mass?

How can it be MORE meaningful for ANY spirituality when the FULFILLMENT of that spirituality is the mass itself: THe unbloody sacrifice of Calvary; THe slaying of the Paschal lamb, as the apostle says: “For Christ, our paschal lamb has been slain.”

It simply sounds like another attempt in one way or another (maybe not by all who are attending) to hijack some aspect of the priesthood.

What’s the point?

P.S. Magisterial documents are written to CLARIFY issues, so if someone reads the whole document and gets the gist of it, it’s pretty hard to take out of context. Isn’t the magisterium a TEACHING office? Can we not learn? Or must we repeatedly sift EVERYTHING through the lens of re-interpretation ad nauseum to the point where we don’t learn anything at all?

 

[James_Miller]

The Knanaya Catholic Church is a former Jewish group turned Catholic. They only have one bishop and do not accept converts and anyone who marries a non-Knanaya must adhere to the spouse’s rite. according to google they do not invite others to their passover services,

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I was told that Jews were the ones who did the choosing.

That position totally denies the Old Testament - and also the New.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Respectfully:

It just all sounds like another attempt on the part of the “Modern” laity to try and do something “priest-like” since we are obviously not all ordained priests. Why go out of your way to do something in this singularly jewish fashion? Why not simply go to mass?

How can it be MORE meaningful for ANY spirituality when the FULFILLMENT of that spirituality is the mass itself: THe unbloody sacrifice of Calvary; THe slaying of the Paschal lamb, as the apostle says: “For Christ, our paschal lamb has been slain.”

It simply sounds like another attempt in one way or another (maybe not by all who are attending) to hijack some aspect of the priesthood.

What’s the point?

P.S. Magisterial documents are written to CLARIFY issues, so if someone reads the whole document and gets the gist of it, it’s pretty hard to take out of context. Isn’t the magisterium a TEACHING office? Can we not learn? Or must we repeatedly sift EVERYTHING through the lens of re-interpretation ad nauseum to the point where we don’t learn anything at all?

Well, I agree that interpretation can sometimes lead to problems. This is why traditionalist Catholics have tremendous trouble sometimes accepting Vatican II and the actions of popes following Vatican II.

The Passover Seder as observed by Catholics and Christians is NOT a substitute for the Mass/Eucharist. For one thing, when was the Passover celebrated in a communal context like the Mass is? Christ did much more than replace the Passover - He gave it a significance it did not have before in a number of respects.

Again, no one is suggesting that PRIVATE Christian celebrations of a passover seder somehow is intended to be a return to Judaism. If that is how people feel about it, then they shouldn’t even be thinking about it.

The Passover marks the movement of the Jews out of Egyptian bondage into the very material promised land. Its meaning is entirely different from that of the Mass/Eucharist instituted by our Lord.

The disagreement here is on this point. And so it remains.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

CCC paragraph 839

Romans Chapter 11 : 24 - 29

This seems to suggest that they remain God’s Chosen people. Try reading the whole chapter.

Also we must be careful when quoting popes from earlier times, that we don’t take them out of context like protestants often do with the Bible. Often these statements where made in order to ward against false conversions of Jews who were trying to avoid persecution.

Excellent and insightful points!

Alex