Is it a sin to immigrate illegally?

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Ender said:
OK, let’s accept that it is not a sin to immigrate illegally in life threatening situations. Do you consider it a sin to immigrate illegally for economic reasons?

Ender
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If and only if there is no other way to survive, no, I don’t believe it to be a sin. But who am I to say? If I had children and I couldn’t find a way to support them, well, the economic reason seems like a logical reason to immigrate. If I couldn’t do it legally, then I’d do it illegally. The Church would probably say it’s not a sin, or at least, not a mortal sin since I would be looking after the lives of my children. But because I don’t have any children, I cannot say. However, I did immigrate here with my mother who brought us here the legal way and I’m proud to say I’m a citizen and can vote to help out those who came illegally (ONLY if they aren’t criminals - discarting the fact that they came here illegally - I’m talking about murderers, rapists, gang members and the like - those of course I’m against).
 
I think if someone is fleeing to provide food and shelter for one’s family…and enters a country illegally…not sure that would fall into the ‘sin’ category. The alternative could be for one’s children to suffer from lack of food…die…etc…

Instinctively speaking…it’s hard to say what any of us might do given a similiar circumstance. There’s a HUGE difference between having an ok lifestyle in another country, and wanting to move to the US for a better lifestyle…and not being able to work at all and give your kids food to eat and basic necessities…and fleeing to the US, under those dire circumstances. I can understand the sentiment from people who have come to America using the proper immigration channels…but, sometimes, for many Mexicans, let’s say–the need is *immediate *to leave their residence, and provide for their families.

Just my thoughts.
 
I think the question should be " would it be a sin for me to immigrate illegally" I don’t think people are in a position to judge others’ sins. In Australia we lock up people behind barbed wire and leave them there for years. Children are locked up too and many people and children have developed serious mental illness as a result. Most of these people are genuine refugees. It is appalling the way they are treated.😦 they are treated this way because they are muslims, and thanks to the ‘war on terror’ we are obliged to mistreat and distrust them.
 
As a Christian, I live in the Kingdom of God, which has no defined geographical boundaries. As I move from one place to another within the Kingdom, I am not “emmigrating,” I am merely moving. I commit no sin in being a wanderer on the face of the earth. I’m only passing through. Much like the rest of you.

Matthew

PS: My forbears on my paternal grandmother’s side came to North America before there were any laws in place to protect the indiginous population from invaders. They arrived without permission or papers. Does that make them illegal immigrants? Does that mean that I have no legal status in this country? This whole thread is silly. We all have the same Father who is in Heaven. Let’s try to act like it.
 
This thread is not completely “silly” as drafdog seems to think.
Is it a sin to immigrate illegally? the answer to that question is Yes and No, depending on the circumstances.

I think the real question here is: Is it always a sin to immigrate illegally? The question can then be answered.

If we’re singing off different hymn sheets, we’ll not sing the same song.
 
Corki said:
Where would be the Catechism.

You don’t get a “pass” from sin just because you don’t agree with the law. When the CCC speaks of an unjust law, it talks about a law that requires you to do something unjust. For example, if you were a doctor who lived in a state where it was required by law that you offer abortion services, it would not be a sin to break that law. A law that says that, in order to enter this country, you have to follow certain steps, cannot be called unjust in the same way.

“Wrong” is not automatically sinful and certainly not always mortally so.

For example, lying is wrong, it may or may not be sinful given the situation and may or may not be a mortal sin given the gravity of the lie.

What I said, was that to break a law is wrong; the sinfulness of the act is for a confessor to determine.

In this example, you would need to show that the US (or whatever country they have decided to stay in) is the only place the person could come and be safe AND that the person tried to obtain the legal and available status of refugee or asylee first before taking the illegal route.

Many, many people come here illegally because they either don’t want to spend the money or take the time to follow the legal steps to immigrate. Again, I leave it to the confessors, but to act thus is most likely sinful.
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Please quote where in the Catechism. The Church deals with right and wrong as in “good” or “sinful”. The Church does does not say that something is not sinful but wrong. The CCC may guide us but is not always definitive.

The sinfulness or not of an act is not to be determined or decided by the confessor, it is decided by the Church doctrine and it has to be determined by the individual before committing the act. The confessor does not now if an act is truly sinful, unless the act is intrinsically sinful (e.g. abortion), he has to rely on the conscience of the penitent.

It seems to me that contrary to what the Church teaches, people want things in black and white for every situation. Divine laws are perfect and human laws are not. This is why we need a well developed conscience to help us with out behaviors. We have been gifted with intelligence and we reject the gift when we delegate to others to determine if our behaviors are sinful or not.
 
Did not Christ say “Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s, and give unto God what is God’s”?

I realize that in the Bible it refers to taxes, but the broader scope and implication is that you obey the law of the land, and at the same time obey God’s laws.

In that context…illegal entry into another country in contravention of its rightfully established laws…without the preponderance of mitigating circumstances, eg; fleeing the one country to avoid severe persecution or imminent death for religious or political reasons, it is a sin to do so.

I understand why most immigrants who are illegals come here. I can sympathize with their plight. However, will their country accept me as an illegal? I’d love to live in a perpetually warm and comfortable climate and work…but they’d throw me out in a heartbeat, probably after some jailtime to boot. And yes, were I to enter illegally…I would be sinning as well.
 
It is not a sin against God, but is breaking the law of the land. There are proper ways to attain immigrant status in this country, and those that wish to live here should be required to do so the right way. I understand the obstacles, but if our borders aren’t sovereign, then what’s the point of borders?
 
For as long as I can remember, there has been an American Flag in any Catholic Church in the US. I was taught that it is there to remind us that we honor the country that provides us the freedom to assemble and worship freely. That means to respect the laws of that country whether you like them or not.
 
fatma said:
I think the question should be " would it be a sin for me to immigrate illegally" I don’t think people are in a position to judge others’ sins. In Australia we lock up people behind barbed wire and leave them there for years. Children are locked up too and many people and children have developed serious mental illness as a result. Most of these people are genuine refugees. It is appalling the way they are treated.😦 they are treated this way because they are muslims, and thanks to the ‘war on terror’ we are obliged to mistreat and distrust them.
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If you’re a refugee, as in the case of Elian, the Cuban boy, there are ways to quickly get you into the system and be legal. Most of us are not advocating what you’re doing, even in the case of Muslims. Distrust is one thing, mistreatment another. Mistreatment is never right, but you have to earn trust.
 
drafdog said:
As a Christian, I live in the Kingdom of God, which has no defined geographical boundaries. As I move from one place to another within the Kingdom, I am not “emmigrating,” I am merely moving. I commit no sin in being a wanderer on the face of the earth. I’m only passing through. Much like the rest of you.

Matthew

PS: My forbears on my paternal grandmother’s side came to North America before there were any laws in place to protect the indiginous population from invaders. They arrived without permission or papers. Does that make them illegal immigrants? Does that mean that I have no legal status in this country? This whole thread is silly. We all have the same Father who is in Heaven. Let’s try to act like it.
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Go to China and proclaim your Christianity. (Side note-if I had a need to be in China, I would not be ashamed of my faith! That being said, you know where that would land me!)
As long as you’re ‘wandering’ you are free to the extent that any country will allow you past it’s borders. Most countries allow people with a visa to wander for a defined period of time. (Are you saying that you come and go as you please regardless of the laws in place in that place?) Immigration is speaking of putting down stakes in order to live and work in a place. You’re right that it is God’s earth, but the different patches of earth defined by borders are governed by men, and have rules. You are obliged to follow the rules of that country in order to live freely there. In our country, there are laws about how one may enter in order to live. Illegal immigrants are, by definition, ignoring the rules set down by our government. Many of those also see fit to break other laws while here (If it’s ok for me to be here illegally, why not try a few other things??).
Regarding your PS, since there was no law in effect at the time, they were not, by definition, illegal. Maybe unwanted, but not illegal.
Regarding the silliness of this thread, if the idea is so silly, why is it that Mexico, where most of these illegals come from, has a closed border policy regarding immigration? I am not saying we need to mistreat these people, show them charity, and treat them as people of God, but on the other hand, I don’t want our borders so wide open that we allow the possiblilty of another 9/11 (have you noticed that it’s not just Mexicans coming across our southern border?
 
Personally, I see the issue surrounding “Elian Gonzales” as being a horribly poor example. He was taken from Cuba by his mother, and her boyfriend. Mother drowned at sea, Elian and others rescued at sea. By the “Feet Dry” law that has been in place for a long time, it is highly questionable that Elian would have been allowed to stay… Whether you like it or not…his father in Cuba, after the death of his mother…his parental rights were inviolable under our laws. He had to go back. His “cousins” who got their 15 minutes of fame and limelight…(sheeesh) and who worked it for all it was worth, had no legitimate claim to the boy.

In this day and age, precious few Cubans are abandoning Cuba for “political” reasons…their reasons seem to center around $$. I live in SW FL, and here of late, there have been some recent landings of Cubans…and none of them are in tattered rags, none look hungry, and all appear in good health, and “glory be” they all seem to be the elite of Cuban society…Doctors and whatnot… and what is truly amazing is that these people are coming here on what we refer to as “go-fast” boats… Like the brand name of “Cigarrette” boats…narrow of beam, with length to handle the seas, and huge engines…that can outrun the Coast Guard cutters, and these boats are generally “abandoned” when the so called “downtrodden” jump off and run up on the beach, and declare themselves “feet dry”…and then become eligible for food stamps, housing, and free medical care at taxpayer expense. “Downtrodden”…hardly. If they can afford the cost of the trip on a throwaway boat that sells for $300,000.00 or more…then they are hardly downtrodden.

Sorry…but the goofy rationale that supports “sympathetic” immigration with no regard for reality or immigration laws… is bogus and isn’t worth squat.

Legal immigration I support, wimpy and illegal immigration needs to be stopped dead in its tracks.
 
Just by definition, being and “illegal” immigrant is just that. One has come into this country without the proper papers and following the right process. We can give all kinds of “Ifs” but that just does not cut it. Illegal is just that…illegal.

I live in one of the States that the illegal migrant issue is big politics. Jobs are requiring more and more prospective employees to speak Spanish or you will not get the job. Some business on the other hand though are requiring that prospective employees speak and write English fluently.

It is illegal for one to come over the boarder without proper papers being processed. My very close friend is married to a lady who came here legally and is going to University here. She is paying rediculous amounts of money for each class because she is not a citizen. She works very hard and my friend and his wife make it happen. This is why even she feels that those who come here illegally have no business being here at all and need to be deported. I don’t know if I agree with her completely but she knows of people who come over here illegally and the reason is that they can, so why wait?

I pay taxes like all of you and this wonderful Catholic sister who did all the right things, would it be right for illegal migrants to have amnesty or special treatment? No, this would be the real immoral act if our government decides to do just that.

Just my opinion.

Danny.
 
onef8th said:
I live in one of the States that the illegal migrant issue is big politics. Jobs are requiring more and more prospective employees to speak Spanish or you will not get the job. Some business on the other hand though are requiring that prospective employees speak and write English fluently.
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A little anecdote: I lived in Belgium for three years. During that time, I had little trouble living on the economy because although Belgium is a french/flemish speaking country, just about everybody I ran into spoke English. Then I came back to the US, to northern Virginia specifically. Just about everywhere I shop I ran into problems with communicating, either from not understanding their thick accents or them not understanding my English. The notable exception is waiters in restaurants. If I had wanted to live in a country where I cannot understand the language, I could have stayed in Belgium. In fact, I ran into more fluent English speakers in Belgian stores than here. I am beginning to feel like a stranger in my own land.
 
I don’t believe so. Is it God’s will for this world to be so divided? I think not. I know that a lot of people feel that the immigrants are taking jobs that should be for Americans but, doesn’t everyone have the right to freedom? I think more it is a sin for the lawmakers to restrict who can live where. I mean, come on, If you think about it, most of our ancestors came from other countries years ago. What makes it different from now? If all the Catholic Churches in the world were bursting at the seams with people, would they put requirements, application processes etc. on who could join and participate in mass? No, well at least I would hope not! Though, they should be required to follow the same laws, guidelines, pay taxes etc. as we do. Just my opinion 🙂
 
First of all I think this question is horrible. Since when do we vote on Catholic teaching. What is next? Is the Host more the body of Christ when the Priest speaks Latin?

Secondly, as Catholics we do not take our political views from the Potomoc but the Tiber. And as Catholics we fail to see that many of these illegal immigrants are our fellow Catholics. We share the body of Christ with them. That bond is more meaningful than a social security number.

By the way, I live in a town that is 90% Mexican and the parents come here to work and provide for the children. I work in a school and many times I hear parents say that they come to work the fields so their kids can get an education and get a better life. Hey doesn’t that sound similar to what earlier immigrants said when they arrived.

To hear Catholics turn against immigrants is appalling. How we forget our ancestors who endured racial taunts. And by the way, didn’t the Italians get saddled with the label WOP? I think that means without papers. Hmm.

Lastly on a practical note I invite anyone who thinks we should deport all the undocumented to come and work the fields. Wake up at 4 AM to pick cherries. You’ll be cold when you start and hot when you finish. Watch out for snakes and tractors as well. Or you can pay $15 for a half a pound.

The last time I checked our true citzenship is in heaven and think that the Good Lord mentioned something about welcoming the alien. I am not a scripture scholar but when God called Abraham and told him to move did he get a work visa?
 
krissy343 said:
Though, they should be required to follow the same laws…
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If they did, they wouldn’t be here.
BB25343 said:
Lastly on a practical note I invite anyone who thinks we should deport all the undocumented to come and work the fields. Wake up at 4 AM to pick cherries. You’ll be cold when you start and hot when you finish. Watch out for snakes and tractors as well. Or you can pay $15 for a half a pound.
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So for our economic good, you’re willing to cultivate a class of workers who get paid horrible wages and live in fear?

I have no problem with immigrants, but I want them to come here legally and be protected and want to be a part of this country. What I have no sympathy for is a system which encourages human beings to be mistreated, and in fact, relies on a continuing flow of law breakers for its prosperity.
 
Is it a sin to keep your family starving and in danger of imprisonment because of debts taken on to feed them (yes, they do that in Mexico) if you could help them by moving to the United States? Should you sit and watch them overcome by sickness and despair because you don’t want to “break the law”?
Do you know that an ordinary Mexican cannot come here legally and through the proper channels unless he is petitioned by an American relative? Even then, the cost is highly prohibitive, and the time frame is measured in years.
 
RobHom said:
Personally, I see the issue surrounding “Elian Gonzales” as being a horribly poor example. He was taken from Cuba by his mother, and her boyfriend. Mother drowned at sea, Elian and others rescued at sea. By the “Feet Dry” law that has been in place for a long time, it is highly questionable that Elian would have been allowed to stay… Whether you like it or not…his father in Cuba, after the death of his mother…his parental rights were inviolable under our laws. He had to go back. His “cousins” who got their 15 minutes of fame and limelight…(sheeesh) and who worked it for all it was worth, had no legitimate claim to the boy.

In this day and age, precious few Cubans are abandoning Cuba for “political” reasons…their reasons seem to center around $$. I live in SW FL, and here of late, there have been some recent landings of Cubans…and none of them are in tattered rags, none look hungry, and all appear in good health, and “glory be” they all seem to be the elite of Cuban society…Doctors and whatnot… and what is truly amazing is that these people are coming here on what we refer to as “go-fast” boats… Like the brand name of “Cigarrette” boats…narrow of beam, with length to handle the seas, and huge engines…that can outrun the Coast Guard cutters, and these boats are generally “abandoned” when the so called “downtrodden” jump off and run up on the beach, and declare themselves “feet dry”…and then become eligible for food stamps, housing, and free medical care at taxpayer expense. “Downtrodden”…hardly. If they can afford the cost of the trip on a throwaway boat that sells for $300,000.00 or more…then they are hardly downtrodden.

Sorry…but the goofy rationale that supports “sympathetic” immigration with no regard for reality or immigration laws… is bogus and isn’t worth squat.

Legal immigration I support, wimpy and illegal immigration needs to be stopped dead in its tracks.
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You totally missed the point. The point was that refugees have a legal way of getting on the fast track to citizenship. True, the Elian example was wrong, but the point still remains. Political refugees and the persecuted have a legitimate way of staying in this country. Illegal immigrants should have no status. They should not be allowed to sway legislation or anything else.

I disagree with you about Elian, but that’s a totally other thread.
 
krissy343 said:
I don’t believe so. Is it God’s will for this world to be so divided? I think not. I know that a lot of people feel that the immigrants are taking jobs that should be for Americans but, doesn’t everyone have the right to freedom? I think more it is a sin for the lawmakers to restrict who can live where. I mean, come on, If you think about it, most of our ancestors came from other countries years ago. What makes it different from now? If all the Catholic Churches in the world were bursting at the seams with people, would they put requirements, application processes etc. on who could join and participate in mass? No, well at least I would hope not! Though, they should be required to follow the same laws, guidelines, pay taxes etc. as we do. Just my opinion 🙂
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Regarding the bolded section, freedom is earned. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are, according to our forefathers, God given rights.

What makes it different is that the people from the turn of the century, mostly, had to apply for and obtain immigrant status before they could think to get on a boat and land on our shores. After that, they were quarantined, documented before they were allowed to work and live here. (Cruelly, and in a degrading fashion, though). The current crop of immigrants do all they can to avoid being caught as they enter the country, but they know that, once here, they will not be sent back. This violates our laws and our sovereignty.

The Catholic religion is a different entity, so that analogy does not fly.
 
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