Is it acceptable for a priest to YELL and then HANG up??

[Benedict108]

I think I should elaborate slightly on my last post. When I referred to Canon 874, I was talking about subsection 1 and the part which states

1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function

If the priest doubts your intention, thinking that things may change if you and your boyfriend seperated. He may seek to have another assigned to him. It is the relationship which brings into question the sponsorship. It is his judgement call, but he has the right to do it.

Pax.

 

[FrCorey]

First, let me give you the background… Josh (my fiance) is taking RCIA classes in order to join the church, and I had been his sponsor through it all. Well, apparently the priest decides that girlfriends/fiances can’t be sponsors… and Josh and I looked it up and couldn’t find anywhere in church documents where it said that (I had started a post about this last month… the majority of the feedback said, talk to the priest). So we were trying to get ahold of the priest.

Okay… so Sunday night Josh has his class. We had been making phone calls to the church office and to the priest’s office, but never heard back (We had been trying to get ahold of the priest to find out about the sponsor situation and Josh had a few questions about confession) So the RCIA instructor, Mary, says to just shove a note under the door… she said father would be HAPPY to talk to us about our questions.

Monday morning rolls around and father calls. I wasn’t there, but Josh said he asked father about his first confession, like when the appropriate times were. And then he said to father:
Josh: “Also, Mary said that you didn’t want Sarah can’t be my sponsor… would you please explain to me why not? We tried looking it up, but we couldn’t find anything.”
Father: “Are you challenging my rules?”
Josh: “No, Father… it isn’t a problem if she can’t be my sponsor. I was just wondering why.”
Father: “If you don’t like my rules, don’t come to my church.”
Josh: “I love the church, we really enjoy going there. Following rules is not a problem, I just wanted to understand. This is a learning process for me.”
Father: “Don’t come to my church if you can’t follow rules”
Josh: “I…”
Then he hears that Father has hung up on him… HUNG UP!

So now we are at a loss of what to do. Me being a sponsor wasn’t a huge problem AT ALL! His grandparents would have come to see him make his confirmation anyway, so they would have gladly been sponsors… Josh doesn’t want to finish RCIA at a church where he can’t even talk to the priest… and he is supposed to make his first confession to this man. This is a small parish, and for it to take two weeks for the priest to call back is rediculous…

I dunno, we’re kinda upset that a priest would yell and hang up on someone that is eager about joining the church. Doesn’t he know that would put most people off? There is another church near by that we attend sometimes, and are hoping that they will let him finish there…

Thoughts/Comments??

Write a letter to his bishop.
We are suppost to be like jesus and he wasn’t very jesus like. we are suppost to treat people like jesus did. and I don’t think he ever screamed in someones face and slammed the door on them.
to be a father means to be like a father, like father did.

 

[forever_always]

I haven’t read this thread, so I don’t know whether anyone agrees with me, but you know what, the priest could have handled the situation less rudely, but I agree with him.

Why are you arguing with him and trying to look up the rule to challenge what he’s told you?

How hard is to get another sponsor? Your priest sees all kinds of people who are becoming Catholic for no other reason than to satisfy the whims of someone’s future in-laws. The Catholic church is not a social club, and the people in RCIA should have a spiritual purpose for becoming Catholic.

I would have been irritated by someone whining about “where does it say the girlfriend can’t be the sponsor” too. I would have tried to not be as rude as your priest, but I’m 100% on his side.

Woah, excuse me? He NEVER told us the rule… i guess you should have read the thread… We heard it by word of mouth, and called him to find out more! No, the Catholic church is not a social club, I agree with you there, but he is not joining for a social means! None of this was ever my desision. Six months after dating and seeing how close I was to my faith gave him the desire to find out about it on his own.
There wasn’t any whining.

 

[forever_always]

Those are all noble and valid thoughts, but you’re not the priest.

From the way I understand her story, they were told she couldn’t be his sponsor. (Now, why this decision is happening in February, right before Lent, instead of in August or September I don’t know. That’s a pretty good question for her, too. Did they just waltz in to RCIA recently?)

Instead of saying, well, Father says we can’t do this, her fiance goes and looks it up and then asks the priest to show him where it is written they can’t be each others’ sponsors. He doesn’t even ask, “Father, could you please explain to me why you’ve made this decision?” Instead, it sounds to me, from where I am sitting, like my teenage child whining and arguing about why they can’t do something just because I said they couldn’t.

I understand his irritation. It is certainly not acceptable to be rude, but I do understand. And then, to top it off, she comes here and posts repeatedly, in what looks like an attempt to rile up sympathy for herself against the priest, and even questions someone who supported the priests’ decision.

That just strikes me as whining. Sure, the priest was rude, and that was uncalled for. We can all agree with that. But it doesn’t mean this couple has handled this with any humility or maturity, either.

We have attending every week since it began in August. There are only two other people in the class.

The only reason why I questioned the poster who supported the priest was because I didn’t understand the question, I wanted more clarity before I answered. I asked what he/she meant by “rules” because Josh and I haven’t heard of that rule before. The other RCIA programs that I have helped with allowed spouses and girlfriends to be sponsors (same diocese) and when we hear by word of mouth that I couldn’t be his sponsor, we decided to look into it. RCIA is a learning process.

 

[forever_always]

The priest is the boss of his parish. If he makes a rule, we all have to follow it, even if it directly contradicts something in the written documents, unless it would actually be a sin to do it. Ours is an oral and authoritarian religion; not a “religion of the book.” The priest’s word is law - always.

This is something that takes some getting used to, as a new Catholic, but in the end, it works really well.

If the priest has said that no spouses or fiancees are to be sponsors of RCIA candidates, then that’s just that. You have to follow it. He doesn’t need to give you a good reason.

There is a strong chance that other priests in the area also forbid spouses and fiancees to be sponsors, too, because this rule might be coming from the Bishop (and if the priest’s word is law for us, the Bishop’s word is law for the priests) so, maybe, your fiance should just get on with expanding his social circle, make friends with some good Catholic men, treat them to an evening of beer and poker at his place, and ask one of them to be his sponsor.

Problem solved.

And yes, I think the priest was rude, but it seems as though Josh kept asking the same question over and over again in different ways, and maybe he sounded like he was trying to get a different answer, after he already knew the answer.

Thank you!
I would like to clear up that we never heard this “rule” from the priest though. If he had told us, we wouldn’t have had a problem because you’re right… his rules, and the rules of the archdiocese is how it’s gonna go. I have been Catholic my entire life, and know that this is true. Josh had talked to the priest just that one time on the phone. Didn’t get an answer at all. I would have thought that they priest could have explained it to him instead of raising his voice and hanging up.

I guess the downfall of these forums is that you don’t really know us as a couple and know how we are or how we think. =\

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The priest can not make up his own doctrines, and the question your fiance asked, pertained to doctrine and he had a right to ask in order to better understand.

A priest is boss only in so far as managing the parish. He can’t set up his own set of doctrines which the parishioners must follow. He must follow the teachings of the Church and the instructions of the Bishop.

Jim

 

[forever_always]

In that case, you may be right. If he did ask the above, then it does sound as if he is just being unnecessarily rude. And I don’t agree at all with changing sponsors at this point. That is just disruptive.

I agree. I understand the reasoning behind not wanting a fiance/girlfriend/wife to be the sponsor, but I was asked (in a way) to do this by the RCIA insturctor originally. She had just assumed I was the sponsor. His grandfather said he would LOVE to do it, if I couldn’t, we just wanted to talk to father first to see what was up… why the sudden change, and what was his reasoning? Josh and I are living as two unmarried people should… we are not doing anything wrong in the eyes of the church as far as I know =\

Josh doesn’t feel comfortable going to confession to this priest now =\

 

[jmcrae]

The priest can not make up his own doctrines, and the question your fiance asked, pertained to doctrine and he had a right to ask in order to better understand.

The question of who may or may not be a sponsor is not a “doctrine.” It is a matter of discipline. The priest certainly has the right to say that people converting to the faith should not have their fiancées and spouses as their sponsors, because of the innate conflict of interest.

The doctrines of the Church are the sorts of things we find in the Nicene Creed.

 

[forever_always]

My experience with the RCIA has led me to believe that the priest was genuinely looking out for your boyfriend. As was mentioned in the earlier postings, if there is trouble between you and him in the futuer, he can lose his sponsor or be shaken in his faith.

Nevertheless, if you are looking for rules refer to Code of Canon Law 892, 893 and 874. The priest can step in if he feels that a sponsor is not suitable and he is providing another opportunity for your boyfriend to acquire another sponsor. It doesn’t mean that you cannot still continue to help your boyfriend.

As far as the conduct on the phone, it was harsh to hang up, but he might very well have been offended. I think it is matter of both parties getting together and talking it out. I am not saying he was right in what he did, but forgiveness is part of our faith. At least try to settle the problem before you go off to another parish.

Pax tecum.

Those are the Canon Laws that we read as well. I apply to them all. And you’re right, even if I can’t be his sponsor, I will still continue to help and support him =] Thank you

 

[jp2weloveu]

Thoughts/Comments??

Maybe you and Josh should keep quiet and follow the rules

Seriously dear, don’t get emotional - and think for a moment. You and your betrothed are likely to be attracted to one another, yes? And you and your betrothed are excited and looking forward to your life together, not to mention the consummation of your vows, your home with the white picket fence, yadda yadda…

What do you think that Josh should be focused upon while going through the RCIA program? What should be the focus of his sponsor?

Why, oh why, would you think that it would be a good choice for you to be his sponsor? I hope your marriage isn’t the only (or even principal reason) for his coming into the Church. The reason should be the desire for salvation and truth. These should also be your intention for him, and the basis of your desire to see him come into the Church.

Please give the pastor a break and not make him catechize you or Josh over the phone. Out of charity you should play by his rules. Make an appointment with him at a convenient time to discuss your lack of understanding. The pastor probably has enough to do already. And remember that he is human and suffers the same difficulties and pressures that all humans do.

If he really didn’t care about your or Josh’s spiritual well being he’d let you and/or daffy duck sponsor Josh.

 

[forever_always]

Maybe you and Josh should keep quiet and follow the rules

Seriously dear, don’t get emotional - and think for a moment. You and your betrothed are likely to be attracted to one another, yes? And you and your betrothed are excited and looking forward to your life together, not to mention the consummation of your vows, your home with the white picket fence, yadda yadda…

What do you think that Josh should be focused upon while going through the RCIA program? What should be the focus of his sponsor?

Why, oh why, would you think that it would be a good choice for you to be his sponsor? I hope your marriage isn’t the only (or even principal reason) for his coming into the Church. The reason should be the desire for salvation and truth. These should also be your intention for him, and the basis of your desire to see him come into the Church.

Please give the pastor a break and not make him catechize you or Josh over the phone. Out of charity you should play by his rules. Make an appointment with him at a convenient time to discuss your lack of understanding. The pastor probably has enough to do already. And remember that he is human and suffers the same difficulties and pressures that all humans do.

If he really didn’t care about your or Josh’s spiritual well being he’d let you and/or daffy duck sponsor Josh.

thank you for posting. =]
Have you read the other post i’ve made (after the first one)? it clears up a little of the things you have said. the sponsorship wasn’t the problem at all. please read the other posts. i dont want you thinking i sound silly! haha.

 

[jp2weloveu]

Josh had talked to the priest just that one time on the phone. Didn’t get an answer at all. I would have thought that they priest could have explained it to him instead of raising his voice and hanging up.
=\

A slight momentary lapse of judgment on behalf of the pastor? Maybe. An improper expression of a slight irritation? Maybe. However you have started 2 threads and posted some 30 times to malign this priest and extol your own virtues…

Humility?
Charity?
Compassion?
Understanding?
Long-suffering?

Who is being Christ like?

Don’t let pride take up all the space in your heart. Hypocrisy may be hard to see when we think that we are the ones who were wronged first. It’s no less a terrible thing.

God has blessed you with a suitable partner be thankful!

Congratulations and Good Luck in the Marrage! It’s not an easy vocation today, but it is a wonderful gift

 

[forever_always]

A slight momentary lapse of judgment on behalf of the pastor? Maybe. An improper expression of a slight irritation? Maybe. However you have started 2 threads and posted some 30 times to malign this priest and extol your own virtues…

Humility?
Charity?
Compassion?
Understanding?
Long-suffering?

Who is being Christ like?

Don’t let pride take up all the space in your heart. Hypocrisy may be hard to see when we think that we are the ones who were wronged first. It’s no less a terrible thing.

God has blessed you with a suitable partner be thankful!

Congratulations and Good Luck in the Marrage! It’s not an easy vocation today, but it is a wonderful gift

Hm… i don’t see myself as maligning a priest. I did not give information about him… and i never started rumours about him? I believe I only gave facts. I wanted honest critisism, options and advice. So thank you for that.

And yes, this thread was not started because of the sponsor situation… that was a different topic, and a different thread. I have made lots of comments in the thread because I thought that was the polite thing to do? I thought it was nice to acknowlege to people that you are thankful that they posted with advice. Am I wrong?

Yes, I am very thankful for him. =]

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The question of who may or may not be a sponsor is not a “doctrine.” It is a matter of discipline. The priest certainly has the right to say that people converting to the faith should not have their fiancées and spouses as their sponsors, because of the innate conflict of interest.

The doctrines of the Church are the sorts of things we find in the Nicene Creed.

Actually its a matter of canon law on who may be a sponsor. There is nothing prohibiting fiances or spouses, from being sponsors from the text from what I can see.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2X.HTM

Jim

 

[forever_always]

Actually its a matter of canon law on who may be a sponsor. There is nothing prohibiting fiances or spouses, from being sponsors from the text from what I can see.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2X.HTM

Jim

Thank you for the link Jim. I wasn’t able to find anything prohibiting it either… we’ll see what happens though!

 

[jp2weloveu]

Hm… i don’t see myself as maligning a priest. I did not give information about him… and i never started rumours about him? I believe I only gave facts. I wanted honest critisism, options and advice. So thank you for that.

And yes, this thread was not started because of the sponsor situation… that was a different topic, and a different thread. I have made lots of comments in the thread because I thought that was the polite thing to do? I thought it was nice to acknowlege to people that you are thankful that they posted with advice. Am I wrong?

Yes, I am very thankful for him. =]

Look, it’s wonderful that you take your faith seriously. I think that your future husband, and all others entering the Church this Easter, is a sign of hope and God’s unending love for us.

But please be honest and introspective. If this thread wasn’t about your fiance’s sponsor situation and your feeling offended why was it a (if not the) central point. Are you suggesting that your question was: “Is it ever acceptable for a priest to yell at or get upset with someone?” I think that the answer should be obvious. What answer would you be satisfied with? Yes? No? Sometimes?

My point was, that in my opinion, there was a more pressing issue. Specifically, the inability to let little offenses go is a sign of pride (the original and principal sin).

What happens when your future husband offends you in some small way (trust me after 10 years of marriage and 3 kids - it’ll happen)? Will you run and tell everyone you know (under the pretense of asking advise) how he did such and such. That would most likely upset him and would be a terrible recipe for marital strife. Honestly, don’t sweat the little things. No one is perfect, not even your fiance. The best way to deal with other people’s minor imperfections is to understand that we aren’t perfect ourselves.

As far as not spreading rumors are you saying that you spoke to no one about this (other than on this forum of course)? You already said that your grandparents volunteered to sponsor him so neither you nor your fiance said anything to them or anyone else about your fiance’s one phone conversation?

Conversations with people about how unreasonable the pastor was can work dissension amongst the members of the Church. And in this case, the priest doesn’t have a chance to respond - which is not fair. At best after a very short while it becomes gossip and uncharitable. I don’t think that in anyway that was your intent, but I hope you can see that sometimes not having the capacity to let something go can make a situation much worse.

You said that since this small thing transpired your fiance was not comfortable in going to confession to this priest. Is your fiance not being judgemental? Is he assuming the worst of the priest?

I’m uncomfortable at all my confessions. I think thats a positive thing and comes from a sincere examination of conscience. I also believe it when I say that “I am not worthy to recieve you” at the mass. With God’s grace we should try to be humble and charitable with each other and our clergy.

If this has all been too off point let me rephrase my response to your original question:

“Is it acceptable for a priest to YELL and then HANG up??”

Sometimes

 

[jmcrae]

Actually its a matter of canon law on who may be a sponsor. There is nothing prohibiting fiances or spouses, from being sponsors from the text from what I can see.

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P2X.HTM

Jim

And again, we are not a “religion of the book” - the priest has the right to make a pastoral decision about this - it is not up to the couple to go through Church law and decide their own case.

The priest has a say in this, and he has made his wishes clear.

 

[forever_always]

But please be honest and introspective. If this thread wasn’t about your fiance’s sponsor situation and your feeling offended why was it a (if not the) central point. Are you suggesting that your question was: “Is it ever acceptable for a priest to yell at or get upset with someone?” I think that the answer should be obvious. What answer would you be satisfied with? Yes? No? Sometimes?

My point was, that in my opinion, there was a more pressing issue. Specifically, the inability to let little offenses go is a sign of pride (the original and principal sin).

What happens when your future husband offends you in some small way (trust me after 10 years of marriage and 3 kids - it’ll happen)? Will you run and tell everyone you know (under the pretense of asking advise) how he did such and such. That would most likely upset him and would be a terrible recipe for marital strife. Honestly, don’t sweat the little things. No one is perfect, not even your fiance. The best way to deal with other people’s minor imperfections is to understand that we aren’t perfect ourselves. Remember monastic use of hair shirts.

As far as not spreading rumors are you saying that you spoke to no one about this (other than on this forum of course)? You already said that your grandparents volunteered to sponsor him so neither you nor your fiance said anything to them or anyone else about your fiance’s one phone conversation?

Conversations with people about how unreasonable the pastor was can work dissension amongst the members of the Church. And in this case, the priest doesn’t have a chance to respond - which is not fair. At best after a very short while it becomes gossip and uncharitable. I don’t think that in anyway that was your intent, but I hope you can see that sometimes not having the capacity to let something go can make a situation much worse.

You said that since this small thing transpired your fiance was not comfortable in going to confession to this priest. Is your fiance not being judgemental? Is he assuming the worst of the priest?

I’m uncomfortable at all my confessions. I think thats a positive thing and comes from a sincere examination of conscience. I also believe it when I say that “I am not worthy to recieve you” at the mass. With God’s grace we should try to be humble and charitable with each other and our clergy.

If this has all been too off point let me rephrase my response to your original question:

“Is it acceptable for a priest to YELL and then HANG up??”

Sometimes

Why do you keep emphasizing “one”? And no, noone else knows besides his mother that was there with him, and my mother who overheard my conversation with Josh. We didn’t tell the new church (or his grandparents) anything about it, nor have we mentioned it to any friends. (I didn’t want the story spread, and I didn’t want to cause trouble). I posted on this forum because I wanted to be able to tell the event how it was (without anyone knowing the people involved) and really… i wanted insight. I was mad at first, but I’m not anymore… HOWEVER, I do not want to be part of a church where the priest claims that it is “his” and that he feels it is okay to rudely interact with people.

I am also uncomfortable with all of my confessions… really, it is difficult sometimes, but it is his first confession and he wants it to be special. He doesn’t want to confess to someone that treated him like **** for asking a simple question for clarification! Maybe this sounds silly, but I don’t think it is too much to ask.

Like I said, the sponsor isn’t really the issue. I didn’t mind either way if I was his sponsor. But when you’re told one thing, and then plan around it… only to find out five or six months later that there was a last minute change involving the whole class seems a little rediculous to me.

In this situation, I don’t feel it was appropriate to hang up. I think that Josh had a ligitimate question and was being respectful.

But, really, thank you for posting and making me think =]

 

[ready]

I too would feel uncomfortable going to such a priest for the sacrament of reconciliation. To me this sacrament is a sacrament about love and forgiveness and I couldn’t get myself to having a priest give me the sacrament who yelled at me and hung up the phone on me without an apology from him or without him making at least some sort of reparation for his actions toward me however small. Even just a sincere smile would do. To me he’s supposed to represent Christ and behave Christ-like. If we don’t expect such behavior in our priests, then who should we expect Christ-like behavior from?

I don’t think we should treat those who were offended against as having sinned either. We should be offering this Poster relief from her confusion on how she should respond in her difficult situation…not make things worse for her and put the blame on her. She’s given no indication of being false.

The poster knows if she mentioned the story of the priest yelling and hanging up to her family for selfish reasons or not. I have no indication that she did this for foul reasons. I would be sinning to impute unworthy motives to her.

I hope you, Poster, don’t harbor a grudge against this priest. It will only make things worse. Just seek a new parish…or talk things over with him if you can. God will see you all through.

 

[jp2weloveu]

Why do you keep emphasizing “one”?

Because you said it happened just one time. Which seems, taken singularly, like a trivial thing rather than something that should literally drive someone out of a church. You said that you preferred the subject church because it was more traditional than another. Hence I would reason that there are things about the other church that you may not like or find unpreferable. I think that it’s unlikely for any of us to find anything perfect in the world…

And of course because of this:

Colossians 3

12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

One of many such expressions of our faith.