Is it allowable to use NFP in order to have no child?

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Pug said:
@joeybaggz, I don’t think the Church cares much how effective the method is or is not. If a condom were determined to be 50% effective, the Church would still categorize it as an unlawful means for spacing children.
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Why? The user is open to life. That is the criteria I always hear when the discussion of marriage is tossed around. Every marital act must be open to life. A compromised condom is.
I ask this because this scenario was suggested to me 30 years ago by a priest. The act must be open to life. In this case, it is.
 
The perforated condom allowance is for a means to fertility test to diagnose issues, without completely compromising fertility. It is not being allowed for use as a means to impede procreation. I think relying on the phrase “open to life” can be rather confusing. I find this specific quote more informative, “excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means” from Humanae Vitae 14 on the vatican site. I also feel paragraph 16 explains it further, but is rather long for a cut and paste. It is worth reading. If worn to prevent procreation, a perforated condom would be an attempt to, “obstruct the natural development of the generative process”.

Even someone my age passes the test I mention, but if it is about percentages, we are at 100% fail to procreate, and would fail a percentages test.

BTW, I think this subject is hard to grasp, and I still have more to understand about it.
 
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Would groups in person be as likely to discuss their sex lives? Unlikely prior to the internet.
 
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joeybaggz said:
You know, I’ve always wanted to ask this question and your response simply has made me do it. I’m sorry if this is out of bounds and the mods, please delete this post if it is, but I have to ask:
It has been credibly statistically proven that the failure rate of NFP when practiced properly is lower than the failure rate for condoms, mechanical, and chemical methods of artificial contraception. IOW, there is a better chance of pregnancy due to the failure of a condom, an IUD, or the pill, then there is with NFP. So, is the use of ABC open to life when used, and is the only real contraception, elective abortion (though that is a somewhat contradiction in terms.)
I ask this only because opponents of the church have actually thrown these statistics in my face in a discussion of this type, and I really don’t have a good solid answer (on a non moral basi
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Here’s the BOTTOM LINE:

We all know that a pregnancy does not happen with every act of "unprotected " SEX between a man and a women. WHY is that?

ANSWER because God is in charge

Gen.1 Verses 26 to 28

[26] Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.

This highlighted message is repeated over 50 tomes in the OT

WHY is that? It is because God has built into man-women intimacy HIS OWN method of Birth-Control. The NATURAL method.

Genesis 4:1 The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. ‘I have acquired a man with the help of Yahweh,’ she said.

God makes life simple for us:
Either HE IS in charge
or we are “in charge” and the responsibility can’t be split.

Pray very much.
GBY
Patrick
 
PJM said:
We all know that a pregnancy does not happen with every act of "unprotected " SEX between a man and a women. WHY is that?
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Suggest you ask the Catholic couples who have four kids, not planned, in six years and it seems every other time the engage, she’s pregnant again. And their paychecks don’t always make it and they live paycheck to paycheck. I know several of these, they now use ABC and it was recommended by a priest.
Let’s see, a couple engages in the marital act using a compromised condom and they are willing to accept a new life if it occurs.
And this is not allowable, because it is not open to life, or it doesn’t satisfy someone’s love of the “rules” while they sit beside the fireplace with their snifter of brandy and pontificate???
 
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I am starting NFP very soon. I know loads of ‘practicing’ Catholics who don’t follow church teaching about this.
 
halogirl said:
I am starting NFP very soon. I know loads of ‘practicing’ Catholics who don’t follow church teaching about this.
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While I understand your point, most “practicing” Catholics do follow church teaching. The church teaches and guides Catholics in following Christ. Part of church teaching is that one must follow the dictates of their conscience. Conscience of course must be formed taking church teaching into account. Other than infallible dogma and doctrine proclaimed by the Magisterium, one may dissent from church teaching, interpret it in light of their own understanding and conscience. One can never publicly dissent from Church teaching however. The idea that 90% of Catholic don’t agree with church teaching is a falsehood.
 
TheLittleLady said:
Just cause. The Popes use the word “just”.

To better understand “just” think of the opposite, what would be an unjust reason? “I do not want to have children because I hate children”, that would be unjust.
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Would it be, though? I’m a little unclear on the justice (and wisdom) of filling one’s household with people one already knows one’s going to hate.
 
This would be something discussed at length with one’s pastor. A true hatred of children could be an impediment to marriage in the first place, but, that is for another thread.
 
Just before that, the Catechism says the following:
2367 Called to give life, spouses share in the creative power and fatherhood of God.154 "Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children; they should realize that they are thereby cooperating with the love of God the Creator and are, in a certain sense, its interpreters. They will fulfill this duty with a sense of human and Christian responsibility."155

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality:

When it is a question of harmonizing married love with the responsible transmission of life, the morality of the behavior does not depend on sincere intention and evaluation of motives alone; but it must be determined by objective criteria, criteria drawn from the nature of the person and his acts criteria that respect the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love; this is possible only if the virtue of married chastity is practiced with sincerity of heart.156
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Notice, it says it is the duty of married couples to procreate (if possible, of course). And it is their duty to make sure any regulation of births is not done for selfish or immoral reasons or by immoral methods. The paragraph you cited is merely saying periodic continence is a morally acceptable method.
 
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As somebody who came from a large family, I’m curious why you would want a small family.
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Because it may be difficult to support a large family. A large family needs much money, time and efforts to go on.

I hear that some people have many children, for example, eight children. I am also curious how they support such a large family. Do they get much financial help from the government? Does one of the two spouses have no job and take care of these children all the time?
 
Anything worth having takes effort, time and money. You will grow as your family grows and learn how to work more efficiently, and spend your money more wisely. My advice to you is to spend some time with the parents of a large family.
 
Someone once tried to tell me that no home with children will ever have an empty plate.

Meanwhile I grew up in poverty. We often went without food. And my mom only had 3 kids. There was a point we had no running water, no food and no father.

I remember listening to that optimistic happy viewpoint and thinking they were so naive.

So yeah, some people just can’t afford a large family.
 
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Oh, I think a certain mentality towards NFP CAN be sinful. Like we should never go into it with the intent to avoid children completely. NFP is still open to life. When you use it you have to do so realizing that you are still open to God giving you another child.

I think people who use it with the intent to avoid children from the moment of marriage to the end of marriage could be sinning because they have no desire for children period… but I’m not well versed enough to say that with certainty.
 
OUR CATHOLIC CATECHISM
1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings

Reliance on our conscience IF it is not FULLY and CORRECTLY formed is the bling leading the BLIND

May God guide your life path friend
Patrick
 
PJM said:
OUR CATHOLIC CATECHISM
1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings

Reliance on our conscience IF it is not FULLY and CORRECTLY formed is the bling leading the BLIND

May God guide your life path friend
Patrick
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And as defined by the Catholic Pharisee a fully and correctly informed conscience is one that slavishly follows every thing spoken by the clergy. Sorry ole boy, but that isn’t thinking for oneself, that’s simply being a moral robot.
 
I have only read half the posts, but you are not married, and when you and someone decide to marry, who knows what your thinking will be? And, believe me, your minds may very well change once you have children.

Now is soooo not the time to be thinking about this! Focus on today, and working on making yourself into a person who would make a great spouse!
 
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