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jon27
Guest
Christ Would!
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jon27
Guest
Christ most certainly would have invited the person who speaks drivel.
You have cornered yourself into a perception of Christ that is simply not accurate. Christ came in to this world for the sick in spirit. He would have welcomed this person without condition as he does for you and I.
As for continuing the discussion of the Thread I would like to point out by quoting from scripture at the time when Jesus was to be stoned by the Jews.
“Even though you do not believe in me, believe in the works I do from my Father.Then you will know I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
That is a direct concession to his own people. Christ again, is again egoless, selfless only seeking to teach the goodness of his Word which is Love.
You speak of being Saved… Did not Jesus Christ die on the Cross for both Jew and Gentile? The Gentiles are all mankind, Greek, Asian, Indians etc. there are no exceptions. Jesus Christ is the Son of Man. All men everywhere!
You have cornered yourself into a perception of Christ that is simply not accurate. Christ came in to this world for the sick in spirit. He would have welcomed this person without condition as he does for you and I.
As for continuing the discussion of the Thread I would like to point out by quoting from scripture at the time when Jesus was to be stoned by the Jews.
“Even though you do not believe in me, believe in the works I do from my Father.Then you will know I am in the Father and the Father is in me”
That is a direct concession to his own people. Christ again, is again egoless, selfless only seeking to teach the goodness of his Word which is Love.
You speak of being Saved… Did not Jesus Christ die on the Cross for both Jew and Gentile? The Gentiles are all mankind, Greek, Asian, Indians etc. there are no exceptions. Jesus Christ is the Son of Man. All men everywhere!
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jon27
Guest
I would like to make a point on the question of how we as individuals come to our different sects of religion. I do not think you can argue the fact most Catholics, and people of other denomonations are brought into to the faith and its traditions solely on the basis of their parents raising them as such. In other words our basis of faith is connected by the mere fact that it was handed down to us.
I am at the same not excluding the obvious that some people find another path and conversions do take place, however I will stick to my theory most of who are religious has been inspired by their parents. It is up to the individual when matured whether he finds Truth in his FAMILIES RELIGION.
Allow me to ask, if a person from the South, who being born of Baptists parents, raised rightously, acting out his life rightously, never being exposed to any other religions, is this innocent man Godly? I believe he is. Is Jesus Christ in his life? I believe he is.
A young Buddhist in Thailand cultivates his religion earnestly, he probably neve heard of Christ. He, or She is a good person, devout in all they do. Is it his fault as a baby he was born in Asia, that he listened to his parents as we did. There is no fault here.
In reponse to the remarks about the Dalai Lama, it is a narrow minded individual who cannot believe he is a Holy Man, as there are many Holy Men and Women who walk among us who are not of our Catholic Faith.
If by faith we know that Jesus Christ was Crucified and Died for the Forgiveness of Sins for the salvation of all humanity then a more gentile approach should be taken toward our non christian friends who do good in this world. In doing so our Faith would be profoundly greater,
I am at the same not excluding the obvious that some people find another path and conversions do take place, however I will stick to my theory most of who are religious has been inspired by their parents. It is up to the individual when matured whether he finds Truth in his FAMILIES RELIGION.
Allow me to ask, if a person from the South, who being born of Baptists parents, raised rightously, acting out his life rightously, never being exposed to any other religions, is this innocent man Godly? I believe he is. Is Jesus Christ in his life? I believe he is.
A young Buddhist in Thailand cultivates his religion earnestly, he probably neve heard of Christ. He, or She is a good person, devout in all they do. Is it his fault as a baby he was born in Asia, that he listened to his parents as we did. There is no fault here.
In reponse to the remarks about the Dalai Lama, it is a narrow minded individual who cannot believe he is a Holy Man, as there are many Holy Men and Women who walk among us who are not of our Catholic Faith.
If by faith we know that Jesus Christ was Crucified and Died for the Forgiveness of Sins for the salvation of all humanity then a more gentile approach should be taken toward our non christian friends who do good in this world. In doing so our Faith would be profoundly greater,
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
I saw Fr Benedict Groechel on EWTN about a month ago. A woman called in, and presented a situation which had her upset.
Her parish priest, referred to Gandhi as a holy man.
The woman was angry over this and asked what she should do about it.
Fr. Groeschel, answer was right on.
He said, Gandhi grew up in a country, where Christians, oppressed his people severely. Yet, he won liberation for Indian, without firing a shot.
If you compare this to the American Revolution, which was a bloody war, Gandhi followed the teachings of Jesus, better than those who called themselves Christian.
Jim
Her parish priest, referred to Gandhi as a holy man.
The woman was angry over this and asked what she should do about it.
Fr. Groeschel, answer was right on.
He said, Gandhi grew up in a country, where Christians, oppressed his people severely. Yet, he won liberation for Indian, without firing a shot.
If you compare this to the American Revolution, which was a bloody war, Gandhi followed the teachings of Jesus, better than those who called themselves Christian.
Jim
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jon27
Guest
1 John 4
Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God.
Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God.
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**Jon27, you say Christ would lovingly invite a person to His house who thinks Jesus is a liar.
Absolutely wrong!
Jesus kicked the wrongdoers out of His house - in e.g. Mt 21,12 when Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” he said to them, “My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a 'den of robbers.”
Match also Mk 11:15-19; Lk 19:45-48; Joh 2:13-16
Or see Mt 25:30 „And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth“.
It merely shows, that those who call themselves Christians, do not necessarily have to be Christians. Hitler too was a “Christian” and he was rom. Catholic; Stalin was a Orthodox “Christian”.
Not of all who say Lord Lord, is their name written down in heaven. See Mt 7:22:
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not do your name?’
Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. AWAY FROM ME, YOU EVILDOERS!”
But it’s obvious: Quite a lot of us will keep insisting, that everyone who was good, reaches the Kingdom of God in heaven, even when he fought against Jesus Christ and preferred other believe than what Jesus taught and died for – in other words – DENY the one and only God and look at Jesus word as untrue.Such person is not good, even when he in human measures seems good. Who denies Jesus word is fighting God and so never could be called a good person.
It’s not good, when we follow our own doctrine of Christian believe. We must hear the Church for the better, for she was founded by Jesus Christ to teach His word.
**
Absolutely wrong!
Jesus kicked the wrongdoers out of His house - in e.g. Mt 21,12 when Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” he said to them, “My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a 'den of robbers.”
Match also Mk 11:15-19; Lk 19:45-48; Joh 2:13-16
Or see Mt 25:30 „And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth“.
What does that prove?
It merely shows, that those who call themselves Christians, do not necessarily have to be Christians. Hitler too was a “Christian” and he was rom. Catholic; Stalin was a Orthodox “Christian”.
Not of all who say Lord Lord, is their name written down in heaven. See Mt 7:22:
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not do your name?’
Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. AWAY FROM ME, YOU EVILDOERS!”
But it’s obvious: Quite a lot of us will keep insisting, that everyone who was good, reaches the Kingdom of God in heaven, even when he fought against Jesus Christ and preferred other believe than what Jesus taught and died for – in other words – DENY the one and only God and look at Jesus word as untrue.Such person is not good, even when he in human measures seems good. Who denies Jesus word is fighting God and so never could be called a good person.
It’s not good, when we follow our own doctrine of Christian believe. We must hear the Church for the better, for she was founded by Jesus Christ to teach His word.
**
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Bruno Schulz;
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**
(By the way: I was not talking about Catholic Faith, but about Christianity as a whole. )**
Of course he is a Christian - who would say anything else?
of course not, as he never heard of Christ. In question are people who know about Jesus Christ and disagree with Him and His word.
He is definitely not! I was talking about intelligent people, who know the Bible. Dalai Lama surely is an intellectual and does know the word of Jesus. He denies Jesus as false and Jesus word as wrong. And the Dalai Lama draws a lot of stupid Christians away from Jesus to Buddhism.
(By the way: I was not talking about Catholic Faith, but about Christianity as a whole. )**
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
As told before: People who do wrong against others, ARE NOT CHRISTIANS even when they are baptized and what have you.
Remember; Hitler and Stalin where “Christians” but brothers of Satan.
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JimR-OCDS
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Bruno Schulz
Jim
But they carry the title, Christian. The British empire, was all intense and purposes, a Christian nation. Those living in India, who would not allow an Indian to ride in the same train car as themselves, attended Church on a regular basis.
Both rejected Christianity, before they came into power, and remember, it was Christians who took opposed them and took them down. People didn’t associate Hitler and Stalin as being Christian. It was pretty evident they were not.
Jim
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Bruno_Schulz
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**We all know many who carry the title, “Christian” and their pertinent papers document this, but it is pretty evident they are not.
It’s not only “pretty evident”, but whoever acts against the law of love, given by God, has no entitlement to call himself a Christian, for he is not in God.
This does by no means imply, that people who do live in love and are good in every manner, automatically live in God.
People who know the word of God and know about Jesus salvation - but still turn away from Jesus, definitely can not expect to share eternal life in Gods kingdom all the same.
In consequence:
It is not enough to be good; for it’s doing wrong and they are wrongdoers, even EVILDOERS as Christ named them, in pushing away the truth, the way and the life - which is Jesus Christ (John 14:6).
How can you call someone like Dalai Lama a “Holy Man” when you know, that he is convinced that Jesus told the untruth? Plus; Buddhism does not recognice God - no God at all - not even any (inexisting) “God” of any religion. What’s “holy” about that?!
**
It’s not only “pretty evident”, but whoever acts against the law of love, given by God, has no entitlement to call himself a Christian, for he is not in God.
This does by no means imply, that people who do live in love and are good in every manner, automatically live in God.
People who know the word of God and know about Jesus salvation - but still turn away from Jesus, definitely can not expect to share eternal life in Gods kingdom all the same.
In consequence:
It is not enough to be good; for it’s doing wrong and they are wrongdoers, even EVILDOERS as Christ named them, in pushing away the truth, the way and the life - which is Jesus Christ (John 14:6).
How can you call someone like Dalai Lama a “Holy Man” when you know, that he is convinced that Jesus told the untruth? Plus; Buddhism does not recognice God - no God at all - not even any (inexisting) “God” of any religion. What’s “holy” about that?!
**
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JimR-OCDS
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Bruno Schulz;
No one can make another person believe. Faith is a gift from God, and how God gives faith to another person, is between God and that person.
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but you seem overly concerned about what non-Christians do, especially when its good.
Jim
Evident to us, but to those who are not Christian, who have only seen Christians acting in horrific ways, its a road block.
That doesn’t change the reality in that those who were bad Christians, have polluted the waters of evangelization so greatly, that there is no hope for some non-Christians to even hear the Gospel message.
Maybe they do, maybe they don’t, but its not your place to judge.
Knowledge is more than just reading the Bible, or being told by a Christian. Knowledge of Christ comes from the Holy Spirit, who is the source of faith.
No one can make another person believe. Faith is a gift from God, and how God gives faith to another person, is between God and that person.
Those who are saved, are saved through Jesus Christ, regardless of their understanding of Him.
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but you seem overly concerned about what non-Christians do, especially when its good.
Jim
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Bruno_Schulz
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It is absolutely irrelevant fact what I say. Forget my word. Important alone, what the Church; what Jesus Christ said to the matter.
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Could it be, that you answer too promptly without first synchronizing what you think and say with the Holy Scriptures?
It is absolutely irrelevant fact what I say. Forget my word. Important alone, what the Church; what Jesus Christ said to the matter.
**
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JimR-OCDS
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Bruno Schulz;
Jim
Well you’re the one posting what you’re saying here.
But you’re expressing your own interpretation of what the Church and Jesus said, which from what I’ve been reading, is questionable.
Jim
po18guy
Well-known member
It is clear that we have lost much of our personal holiness via the infiltration of the world and the prevailing secular attitude. It seems that Americans now think that you can just be a good person and get to Heaven. This spits in the face of Christ suffering on the cross. Which Messiah has nail scars? That one is the way, the truth and the life. All else is pleasing to this world and brings nothing but condemnation in the next, if we even believe our own faith’s teachings. Lord, help us! Amen.
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Bruno_Schulz
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**po18guy among other relevant words to the theme, pointed at the word of Jesus, who said: Peter, Satan had been allowed, to sift you as wheat. Herein we recognise that Satan often dupes us, and let us think you are good, so what – it is enough to be good, what about all this gossipy flubdub “you must”. See Dalai Lama. Isn’t he good?! Who’d say people aren’t good enough when they don’t anthing wrong?! What’s wrong in doing good but daubting all that God-stuff?!
Well po18guy has well done to point out, that it really is an honour to be sifted like wheat by Satan. Just as St. Peter was tempted strongly.
Praise everybody God at whom Satan makes hard efforts to tempt him. For Satan doesn’t have to put himself out on someones account - who is on Satan’s track already. He, who is allowed to sift us like wheat, surely finds those worthy of being sifted, who are on Gods way, which is Jesus Christ; “I am the way, the truth and the life”. Any other way is wrong, and this is very obvious to anyone educated enough to know the Bible!
We all feel deeply, when being attempted by Satan, and let’s then flee right into the Lords Prayer - into Gods hand:
And don’t lead us into temptation, but deliver us from this evil.
Let’s than cry out; “help me Jesus Christ” as St. Peter cried out, when he sank into that sea!
And Jesus reached His hand to St. Peter and pulled him up unto Him! Jesus will do so with us too;
IF WE BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST only
**
Well po18guy has well done to point out, that it really is an honour to be sifted like wheat by Satan. Just as St. Peter was tempted strongly.
Praise everybody God at whom Satan makes hard efforts to tempt him. For Satan doesn’t have to put himself out on someones account - who is on Satan’s track already. He, who is allowed to sift us like wheat, surely finds those worthy of being sifted, who are on Gods way, which is Jesus Christ; “I am the way, the truth and the life”. Any other way is wrong, and this is very obvious to anyone educated enough to know the Bible!
We all feel deeply, when being attempted by Satan, and let’s then flee right into the Lords Prayer - into Gods hand:
And don’t lead us into temptation, but deliver us from this evil.
Let’s than cry out; “help me Jesus Christ” as St. Peter cried out, when he sank into that sea!
And Jesus reached His hand to St. Peter and pulled him up unto Him! Jesus will do so with us too;
IF WE BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST only
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jon27
Guest
Some of these conversations seem like they are right out of the Spanish Inquisition…Bruno , if I may, Our previous beloved John Paul II visited the Dalai Lama Eight Times!!!
He also prayed at The Wall in Jeruselum with the Jewish leaders and apologized for past errors toward humanity by previous Church theologies.
You spoke a few days back about Christ not conversing with people who drival,driving them out of Temple and so on, yet the most profound conversion in the history of Christianity came to Paul of Taursus, a man who killed and defiled Early Christians.
St. Paul became the father of the Gentiles!
Bruno, you have missed the point on Jesus Christ being The Good Shephard who would go to any lenghths for his sheep.
It is unfortunate, but I genuinely believe you have the conviction that all Good Jews, Hindus, Buddhist etc will be in Hell one day, and that is as radical as it gets.I honestly do not believe Pope John Paul II thought this way.
He also prayed at The Wall in Jeruselum with the Jewish leaders and apologized for past errors toward humanity by previous Church theologies.
You spoke a few days back about Christ not conversing with people who drival,driving them out of Temple and so on, yet the most profound conversion in the history of Christianity came to Paul of Taursus, a man who killed and defiled Early Christians.
St. Paul became the father of the Gentiles!
Bruno, you have missed the point on Jesus Christ being The Good Shephard who would go to any lenghths for his sheep.
It is unfortunate, but I genuinely believe you have the conviction that all Good Jews, Hindus, Buddhist etc will be in Hell one day, and that is as radical as it gets.I honestly do not believe Pope John Paul II thought this way.
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Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**
It is up to them to make up their minds and open their heart for Jesus Christ.
Even I, whom you seem to misunderstand completely, talk to atheists and blasphemer. Also our family for decades is friendly with the families of next doors synagogue including the rabbi.
But:
All the more happy is heaven over the one who comes back – even more, than over the 100 who had believed in Jesus, as we read in the Bible Mt 18:12-14: “And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.”
But:
God gave us the free will to be for or against Jesus, and Jesus said Himself referring to that decision in Luke 11:23: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.”
The bible too says; it’s not up to us to judge! Beware of such thing. No Christian judges – wouldn’t dare to.
But
There still remains the biblical fact, that the names of those are written in heaven, who live in Jesus word, on the other hand the words of Jesus I noted here before, which do not speak for those who are convinced, that Jesus is neither Son of God, nor true!
Don’t make wrong conclusions
**
Of course he did. We love our next. The present pope does so too. Pope Benedict prayed in a mosque. What does that prove? It proves that we love our neighbour and pray for their understanding of Jesus word. Jesus himself talked to wrongdoers of all kind and he to the horror of the Pharisee’s even went to their houses and eat with them.
It is up to them to make up their minds and open their heart for Jesus Christ.
Why not? Thanks heavens many turn round and become a new human in God. That’s the reason why we never push such people away, but treat them lovingly. That’s why Jesus Christ, that’s why the pope, that’s why we tread this neighbours in a loving way.
Even I, whom you seem to misunderstand completely, talk to atheists and blasphemer. Also our family for decades is friendly with the families of next doors synagogue including the rabbi.
Exactly. You said it yourself: FOR HIS SHEEP. HIS - not for those who left and betrayed him.
But:
All the more happy is heaven over the one who comes back – even more, than over the 100 who had believed in Jesus, as we read in the Bible Mt 18:12-14: “And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.”
But:
God gave us the free will to be for or against Jesus, and Jesus said Himself referring to that decision in Luke 11:23: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters.”
Thank’s heavens you are wrong. Neither is such thing said in the Bible
The bible too says; it’s not up to us to judge! Beware of such thing. No Christian judges – wouldn’t dare to.
But
There still remains the biblical fact, that the names of those are written in heaven, who live in Jesus word, on the other hand the words of Jesus I noted here before, which do not speak for those who are convinced, that Jesus is neither Son of God, nor true!
Don’t make wrong conclusions
**
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CatsAndDogs
Guest
Is it enough to be good? No, if one has ANY knowledge of Christ.
Is it enough to be Christian? No, if one doesn’t act according to Christ’s dictates.
Can the “only good” be eventually saved? Yes, if they are very VERY good listeners to the “voicings” of natural law.
…but the “only good” are saved only by God’s mercy, as are we all, invariably.
:shamrock2:
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