Is it enough - to be good?

[BarbaraTherese]

Is it enough to be good? No, if one has ANY knowledge of Christ.

Is it enough to be Christian? No, if one doesn’t act according to Christ’s dictates.

Can the “only good” be eventually saved? Yes, if they are very VERY good listeners to the “voicings” of natural law.

…but the “only good” are saved only by God’s mercy, as are we all, invariably.

:shamrock2:

… …We are all without exemption no matter who or what we may be desperately in need of God’s Mercy which alone can save us… if any geniune human being who has always acted well in life is saved, it remains through an Act of God’s Loving Mercy…and on God we can place no laws and regulations that He can do this and not do that - He is Complete Freedom…“God can do all things”…

Luke 18

19

And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone.*

If Jesus refuses to allow someone to call Him “good”, then we can be assured none of us are even remotely near “good”…

.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Real great answers by CatsAndDogs and BarbaraTherese. Thanks - super!
Let’s hope brother jon27 and many others who’s mind is subverted by the corrosive but widely spread idea of Gods “all-forgiveness” and “heaven for all” will accept now, that it’s not and never enough to be good. And one can’t be “a Holy man”, a Saint even, when defeating God!

CatsAndDogs mentioned "voicings of natural law”. Yes! Let’s remember, that with Gods creation of everything there is, "voicings of natural law” too was created: When Pope J.P.2 visited 1985 CERN, he was asked was would be, if latest scientific cognitions would collide with Church’s teaching? The Pope answered:
“This is impossible, for God wrote two books. The one of the Holy Scripture and the one of nature. That’s why contradictoriness is excluded!”

Yes, ANY knowledge of Christ must let any educated Person stop and think, for there is not the least in Jesus word which would be selfish or other than to the benefit of human kind. God easily could have annihilated this worthless world 2000 years ago, instead of sending His own Son Jesus Christ to take up that horrendous burden of salvation that made heavens cry.
If we had accidentally striked Jesus on His arm or body, this would have been the outmost already, but no, we tortured and crucified Him, which Jesus did let happen out of love towards us for forgiveness of out sins. Thos sins of ours are forgiven to the extend, that excludes from any connection to God. Now it’s up to us, not to add further sins.

What sin could be bigger, than to defeat Jesus salvation or even Jesus and God altogether?! Where than is the slightest debris of being good?
It is clear, that consequences of suchlike defeating God, will be hard.

**

 

[po18guy]

We forget that the only reason we even think about heaven, the only reason the word exists in our language is because of Christ. He opened the gates! His agony and blood were the key to the lock. To ignore or disobey Christ and hope for His Kingdom is foolish. To assume entrance to the Kingdom is arrogant. Good is not enough. We are called to be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). For this very reason, Catholics believe in purgatory, and revel in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Amen! Alleluia!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Let’s hope brother jon27 and many others who’s mind is subverted by the corrosive but widely spread idea of Gods “all-forgiveness” and “heaven for all” will accept now, that it’s not and never enough to be good.

Ever heard of “Apocatastasis”?

I think that this is a heresy, but I wouldn’t mind being shown exactly where this is defined explicitly as a heresy, as I can’t seem to find it.

:shamrock2:

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Ever heard of “Apocatastasis”?

I think that this is a heresy, but I wouldn’t mind being shown exactly where this is defined explicitly as a heresy, as I can’t seem to find it.

:shamrock2:

The doctrine of Apocatastasis, while it did apparently have an airing amongst theologians in the Church for a while and was debated in the very early years of The Church, was finally condemned as heretical:
Apocatastasis

"In any case, the doctrine was formally condemned in the first of the famous anathemas pronounced at the Council of Constantinople in 543: Ei tis ten teratode apokatastasis presbeuei anathema esto [See, also, Justinian, Liber adversus Originem, anathemas 7 and 9.] The doctrine was thenceforth looked on as heterodox by the Church. "

 

[BarbaraTherese]

We forget that the only reason we even think about heaven, the only reason the word exists in our language is because of Christ. He opened the gates! His agony and blood were the key to the lock. To ignore or disobey Christ and hope for His Kingdom is foolish. To assume entrance to the Kingdom is arrogant. Good is not enough. We are called to be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48). For this very reason, Catholics believe in purgatory, and revel in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Amen! Alleluia!

For this very reason Catholics delight in our God of Loving and Abundant Mercy, Compassion and Understanding, of which Purgatory and the Sacrament of Reconciliation are two only expressions. Alleluia Amen.

While we can come to conclusions and concepts in a quite loose and general sense, we cannot actually condemn anyone of any particular action to eternal damnation, simply because no one can do this except God who alone can see into the human heart which is the seat of sin and its motivation…external behaviour is only a POSSIBLE manifiestation of the interior disposition of the heart “Man judges appearances, but The Lord knows the heart”.

Matthew Chapter 7
**

**

1

**

• Judge not, that you may not be judged, 2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 Any why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? *

4

• Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.*

What Jesus is saying is that if you judge another person or self righteously try to amend his/her behaviour for any reason there is a beam in your eye and the only way it can be removed is by refusing to judge and self righteously correct that other person. Then for both of us there is only a mote in our eyes. In other words, we are all spiriaully blind and in need of correction and God’s right judgement and God’s necessary corrections/punishments in His right judgement.

Mortal sin and the cause of eternal damnation requies three dispositions at the one and the same time:

• Grave matter
• ***Full ***knowledge of that Grave Matter as likely to eternally damn one’s soul and a direct and serious rebellion against God.
• Full consent without any sort of pressure or inducements, nor force which reduces the nature of consent from being “full consent”. From the Catholic Catechism:
  [1860 (http://javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1860.htm’) *

Unintentional ignorance

can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man.

The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

The doctrine of Apocatastasis,… was finally condemned as heretical…

Ah. I didn’t think to search for the word “condemned”, and I quite obviously didn’t read the whole article.

Silly me.

Thanks Barb!

:shamrock2:

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Ah. I didn’t think to search for the word “condemned”, and I quite obviously didn’t read the whole article.

Silly me.

Thanks Barb!

:shamrock2:

When I started to read the article, it did state that the doctrine was upheld by some of the early Church Fathers and I thought that this had surely to be wrong, which made me read on to the end. It had me worried there initially! I had never heard of the heresy before, thank you for introducing me to a new word and understanding of our Faith.

.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

… thank you for introducing me to a new word and understanding of our Faith.

Actually, It was new to me too, as I found it doing a search an NewAdvent for “universal salvation”, and up it popped!

:shamrock2:

 

[jon27]

To all who particpate in this thread. I am afraid my views on Gods mercy have been grossly exagerated. I elected to participate on this web site in order to have a means of expression toward Catholocism, to listen to others and perhaps become closer in my faith.This site has failed to inspire me. The subverted mind Im supposed to have with corrosive thought cannot adhere to the continuous judgements made with such authority from this thread.

I did not at any time, while writing my texts, undermine the Sacredness of The Christ, nor did I suggest that evil people would
would be in communion with him in the afterlife. I never said all were forgiven…never. I only spoke of genuinely good people, filled with charity, kindness, and a love for his brothers and sisters. Caring for the poor and the sick. Yes perhaps absent of an understanding of Jesus but not a vile rejecting of him.

Fire and Brimstone I can get anywhere. There is too much of that going on in this world from all denominations, and all religions. For centuries the religious have been killing each other over their seemingly Divine judgements they make on one another. History has proven time and again the futility of this way.

I am the first to admit that I am a bad Catholic, and far from being good. I would not have the audacity to use myself as an example of the subject we have been speaking of as of the “goodness of man” Maybe my theories are a source of hope for myself…I don’t know. However from what I experienced listening on this site has convinced me, with a few exceptions, that there is no Evangelical
teachings on this thread. Fire and Brimstone…thats all.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

To all who particpate in this thread. I am afraid my views on Gods mercy have been grossly exagerated. I elected to participate on this web site in order to have a means of expression toward Catholocism, to listen to others and perhaps become closer in my faith.This site has failed to inspire me. The subverted mind Im supposed to have with corrosive thought cannot adhere to the continuous judgements made with such authority from this thread.

I did not at any time, while writing my texts, undermine the Sacredness of The Christ, nor did I suggest that evil people would
would be in communion with him in the afterlife. I never said all were forgiven…never. I only spoke of genuinely good people, filled with charity, kindness, and a love for his brothers and sisters. Caring for the poor and the sick. Yes perhaps absent of an understanding of Jesus but not a vile rejecting of him.

Fire and Brimstone I can get anywhere. There is too much of that going on in this world from all denominations, and all religions. For centuries the religious have been killing each other over their seemingly Divine judgements they make on one another. History has proven time and again the futility of this way.

I am the first to admit that I am a bad Catholic, and far from being good. I would not have the audacity to use myself as an example of the subject we have been speaking of as of the “goodness of man” Maybe my theories are a source of hope for myself…I don’t know. However from what I experienced listening on this site has convinced me, with a few exceptions, that there is no Evangelical
teachings on this thread. Fire and Brimstone…thats all.

Very sad to read your Post above and I have not been following this thread religiously or as each Post appeared reading them all.
We do have our Fire and Brimstone proclaimers for sure on CAF - and those who misinterpret what we say and insist their distorted interpretation is correct - we have a great variety of membership for sure…and we have very many members of deep and rich compassion with caring and concern for others and who advocate the spirit which gives life, and not the letter of the law, which can only kill. All salvation is through Christ, but then Christ is not limited to religious rules and regulations and certainly not to denominations. Many do claim and speak of Christ and yet do not live by His Spirit…others do not know Christ intellectually in any way and yet their spirit shines as a reflection of His. Many I am sure we will see in Heaven who will say…but when did I give water in your name, visit you when sick or in jail, or clothe you when you were naked and Jesus will reply “whatsoever you did for the very least of mine, you did it for me”.
I am very sad you have experienced Catholic Answers as you have:imsorry:…

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Jon27

Fire and Brimstone I can get anywhere. There is too much of that going on in this world from all denominations, and all religions. For centuries the religious have been killing each other over their seemingly Divine judgements they make on one another. History has proven time and again the futility of this way.

The above is very true indeed. And in our own day the horror and terrorism has been renewed and unleashed in the name of religion and God. And until Peace and loving acceptance and understanding towards all in our community reigns in each individual heart, it will never reign in our world.

 

[fhansen]

Without going back and reading the posts, I don’t recall anyone here talking about universal salvation-as if Gods’ justice was ultimately a meaningless term. We were talking about how a person is judged –by a God who knows men’s hearts and judges accordingly –if they loved well but didn’t have the light of the Christian message or whose information of it had been corrupted by prejudice or the misdeeds of “Christians” in their personal experience. How is their culpability mitigated –or is it at all? Both the CCC and Romans 2 address this:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) Romans 2:13-16

And I’ll repeat St John if the Cross’s statement: At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

**That had been said and confirmed throughout the whole thread. Nobody said anything else. What’s new about it?
Still – there’s hardly anyone on this world who’s educated and dos NOT know the Gospel of Christ or his Church.
**

 

[BarbaraTherese]

That had been said and confirmed throughout the whole thread. Nobody said anything else. What’s new about it?
Still – there’s hardly anyone on this world who’s educated and dos NOT know the Gospel of Christ or his Church.

I is probably very true that most all do know about the Gospel and of Christ and The Church; the Gift of Faith however, is another matter entirely. “You have not chosen Me, I have chosen you”.
We may in our fallible and limited human awareness level feel that we have done the choosing and continue to do so re following The Gospel and Christ in His Church…but the actual reality and the spiritual and theological reality is that we can only do so because we have been gifted the Grace to do so. No good at all has its origin in us, it always has its origin in God. This is an absolutely humbling matter to be so gifted with such a call and vocation that in the evening of our lives will ask us how we have loved all without exemption in life.

Another great Carmelite and Doctor of The Church (St. Therese of Lisieux) wrote “All is Grace” and all is indeed Grace!

I keep looking at the title of this thread and smiling, since Jesus said that no one is good - that only God is good.

Barb

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Jesus’ meaning of “to be good” is a very different one to ours. Jesus in this moment didn’t even describe himself as good.

None of us would ever doubt, that God Himself wouldn’t have called (among others like Abraham, Moses, Eliah, St. Peter and many Saints) the Holy Mary as being absolutely GOOD.
Certainly our own understanding of being good again, would be of much lower level though. But had we not those among us, who really are good, who indeed are among us and indeed are good and “hold the world together” in love and understanding, we wouldn’t live. For without them, the world would sink into a mere chaos and hate.

So there’s indeed no reason at all, for sublime smiling and looking down at the question " Is it enough - to be good?", nor the will of the faithful “to be good”.

Yes, it’s not our reward to have faith in God, but Gods grace gave it to us. Any Christian knows that as basic Chistian knowlege. However, we also know, that this is not given to those, who deny God (among them some born as Christians too), as we read in Mt 13:15, Marc 4:12, Joh 12:40, Acts 28:27 where we learn: …‘that they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’
**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**My English is a low basic English, that often might be misunderstood. A dear friend of mine of this forum, transferred my expression above, into real English as follows:

Would any of us doubt that God would have called (among others like Elijah, Abraham, Moses, St. Peter and other Saints) Holy Mary “good”, as in “good and faithful servant?” This judgment of “goodness” was made in each case of a servant being assumed into heaven; a judgment made directly by God.<

No doubt however, that among us (and we see them regularely) many are holy, respective Saints, who surely are good indeed - but a lot more than that. Mostly we don’t even take notice of.

Our meaning of being good, is to do no wrong to others and often it’s misunderstood as; to stay in the background. Just to do “good” for ourselves by living in God just for salvation of one’s own soul, is selfish, not good at all and not the way Saints took.

When St. Paul wrote to his young congregations, he often addressed them as “the holies”. Their being good meant; to spread widely - over all they reach - their faith in God, which we are called to do too, as we are called to be holy here on earth. No real Holy, would ever consider himself as being holy though, no Saint ever did.

To be or to become holy (the second step of “to be good”) we are asked on very many places in the Bible! Among others here: Röm 6,19 - 1 Kor 7,14 - 1 Thess 4,7 - 2 Thess 2,13f - 1 Petr 1,15 - 2 Petr 3,11 - 1 Joh 3,3

A „holy man“ (or woman) as some think great intellectual religious leaders would be, can never and by no means be persons, who deny Jesus Christ, as pointed out in the last mentioned Biblical verse; Joh 3:3= Everyone who has this hope in Jesus hallows himself, just as Jesus is holy.

A in human measures „holy man“ (or woman) might be good, as he again in human ways simply doesn’t do wrong and helps others.
God however, asks more than simply “to be good”. God asks ultimativly belive, faith in God!

**

 

[fhansen]

Yes, next time I see a person who commits acts of selfless love, I’m going to be very, very suspicious of them.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Which of course wouldn’t make any sense an indeed would be contrary to Christian behaviour, manners and rules

You’d better inquire if he is all that good out of Christian love, or simply because he’s such a good guy***. And if he doesn’t believe or know about Jesus Christ, it’s your chance to tell him.

***Exactly this I was asked back in 1993 by an American guy who stayed with us for some month, because he sung in the band of our son.

Of course I know you’re trying to be sarcastic, but just in case some Non-Christian didn’t get it…
**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Someone of this Forum send me this note:​

There is a monk somewhere in the Far East praying, perhaps fasting. Alone with God in silence he feeds the poor, helps the sick subjecting himself to disease yet completely selfless. He has abandoned the pleasures of the world for the love and care of his fellow Brothers and Sisters. He, for whatever reason has never heard of the Christ. THIS MAN KNOWS GOD!
**

**Hi Bruno,

Thanks for inviting me. As you know I am a cradle Catholic, What you might not know is I have many relatives that are Buddist. I had some Buddist monk friends when I lived in the Orient. I believe that salvation is through the Holy Catholic church. Buddist, Protestants, Morman, JW, SDA, all have as much chance to get into Heaven as any of us Catholics.

[SIGN]
“It it weren’t for Christians, I’d be a Christian.” - Mahatma Ghandi
[/SIGN]

I believe that they will be judged by a standard set by God and God alone. We can not know God’s ways, His ways are not our ways! Who are we to attempt to play God. he wouldn’t like that! :tsktsk:

The Bible explains to “christians” that by the sacrafice of Jesus, through the grace of the Catholic church, is the only way to Heaven.
As Catholics we believe that if you do not know that a thing is a “sin” against God, you are not liable for sinning! In other words ,if you kill and don’t know God forbids it, you are not held accountable by God. When you find out you are then and only then do you obtain accountablility.
So all the Heathens in the world are eligible for salvation because Jesus Christ paid the price required for everyone’s redemption. IMO, only people who know of this fact, could be held to the standard of knowing Jesus and therefor be required to obey the teachings of the Catholic church.
Prior to Jesus’ birth people were saved by His grace, why not now? I also believe, that Protestants will have a much harder time to be saved because they have access to the word of God which clearly shows that Jesus established His church 2,000 years ago. If their church is 500 years old or less they must realize it is a counterfeit church! By that I mean nothing more, nothing less. Not that protestants can’t be saved, they can “through the graces of the Catholic church”. It isn’t posssible through their counterfeit churches because of the distorted and corrupted teachings, and false bible interpretations!
Click on: New KJV Bible I would agree with this “separated brethren” Only I would not limit it to just the new version. I would apply it to all 100 versions of false Bibles and 61,000 counterfeit representations of the Real Church established by jesus 2,000 years ago!! ****
coun ter feit 'kaunt-er-fit:** to imitate or copy closely especially with intent to deceive.
The greatest method of deception is to counterfeit. And the master of counterfeit and deception is Satan.
**

The Bible in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warns of Satan’s counterfeit: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;. . .” Isaiah 14: 14 tells of Satan’s ultimate counterfeit: “. . . I will BE LIKE the most High.”

God Bless
**