Is it enough - to be good?

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You have taken me by surprise Realcatholic.I have admired a great deal of your writings, they are simple and to the point. I expected something more from you rather than attempting to be a referee between Bruno and myself. There is, at least on my part no want of a fight. I am attempting to have a dialogue with some good people. We could be many other places but we choose to be here.

However the participants of this thread argue with one another with quotes from Scripture. In Scripture it clearly states that man cannot achieve Heaven and dwell with the Almighty unless through Jesus Christ. I believe throughout this thread mostly everyone has expounded on this very verse. It has been the key defense of many as to the title “Is it Good enough to be Good”

If the participants believe in the passage with complete Catholic conviction then why can’t they give a simple yes or no answer to the question of the Jewish children and the concentration camps of WWII. If you believe in your heart there is no entrance into Heaven without Christ then the conclusion is the innocent were damned to hell with their killers. If you simply say that only God knows the answer to the scenario, you have now invalidated the passage, it becomes less authoritive.
**Hi jon27, 👋

The problem is the ways of God are above our understand if we could ubnderstand His way that would make us gods in our own mines. Things that we can be assured of: God wants everyone to be saved. Gos sent His son to die for all sins. You don’t even need to know it is you are in debt and someone pays the bill for you. When you go to “pay” the authoritie says “Oh, that bill has been paid” then you understand. That I believe is what will happen. Non-Christians bill wil be paid. Now If you find out someone wants to pay your bil and you say “Do not pay my bill” and reject the offer. When you go to pay the bill it will be marked "Full amount Due ". Even though Jesus paid the price required we don’t have to accept the payment.

Jon17 it seems so clear in my mind. Does it make any sense to you are all? Bruno, has the mind set that we like to call “old Church” The door way to heaven saying “Catholic Only” . It makes people feel “special” but it eliminates many good God fearing people from their “just dues” and God is Love and fair, but He does demand payment!

God Bless
**
 
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What you are stating is not Catholic teaching and if you keep insisting that it is, then please give references to reliable Catholic authorities which authentic what you are saying…and I know that there are none - because The Church does not teach what you are saying.
Ok – don’t worry – be happy.
When two children went to Granny, and Mom asked later how they liked it, both of them would say “nice”. Mom will out of this “nice”, hear and understand a lot more; how the child felt, what they experienced, liked and disliked about this day. Further asked, both children who had undergone and seen exactly he same – let’s say a visit in the park, will tell mom and dad quite different things. Which was astounding to the one, let’s say a butterfly he saw, wasn’t so amazing to the other, who found a duckling so wonderful. One loved that ice-cream, the other the cotton candy. Both of them agree; it was a truly wonderful day. So - you and I agree on as well the Bible as on our Church. 😃

So, when two Christians might see little details in slightly different ankles its no blasphemy or leaving the Church’s teaching, especially, when it’s no doctrine about this detail. This Christians are still fully settled in the Church’s teaching and in God. Namely in God, for many don’t know so much about Church’s teaching and still live fully in God.

The wideness of Christian believe and knowledge is so great, that one shouldn’t focus his judgement on a single point and declare his neighbour then to be wrong. (Let’s remember Matth 7,1-5).
We never must the uniqueness of one basic truth; in this case “He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him” adapt on anything God had accomplished ever before, and interpret the Bible – if a phrase is not quite clear - in this basic knowledge only.

Let’s not be as narrow minded to imagine, God would be bound to anything what so ever. And no; the Church does not teach that God did direct Abraham, or the Ascension of Elijah into hell for the next 900 Years until Jesus came (in this case more specifically John Babtist) - instead of into heaven. Match 2Kings 2:1 to 18= When the LORD was about to take Elijah UP TO HEAVEN…
Little sarcastic question: Is the Bible wrong?

**
 
To respond in part to the above:)
The theology of salvation through Christ and His Church is almost a whole Catholic theology of its own and is not as simplistic nor as illogical as has often been presented in this thread:

ancient-future.net/prots.html

The actual whereabouts of every single individual soul other than those declared saints by The Church - only God can know as a sure fired certain fact. Certainly those good people and certainly children amongst the Jewish people murdered in concentration camps would be undoubtedly in Heaven. Prove it? This cannot be done nor can it be done for any soul outside of declared saints of The Church.

The annoying thing to me in this thread is that most all of it is each members personal opinion only with no links or quotations given to support their concepts or arguments, which really does mean that their concepts and arguments remain personal opinions only.

You are annoyed because people of this threads writings are not being supported by Scripture, hence you feel there remarks are of opinion only. Perhaps. Yet listen to what you are saying in regards to the Jewish Children. By you feeling they were absolved is in itself outside of Scripture. It is a clear contradiction. A good innocent Jew cannot attain Heaven without being saved by Christ.

However Barbara, I truly believe you have given the right answer because I believe it came from your Heart. It is in your Heart you know Jesus. The very essence of love and compassion, the Supreme Truth could never persecute for eternity the lives of those children.

Sometimes we have to lay scripture down and relax with Jesus Christ. Reading and quoting scripture is important, but deep contemplation through an interior life, free of opinions and theories,
is what I perceive the way too Him.

I am happy Barbara you answered the question the way you did.

See also
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/salvation-of-non-christians/

Barb
 
**When we ask priests about questions that are not of decisive relevancy and far off any doctrine (like if God might have taken Elijah into heaven before Jesus’ salvation), we get diverse answers such as “it is believed, that most likely…”, or “the Church thinks that…” or "“if we follow the Holy Bible, it must be such and such”.

There are open questions (of very little relevance to our believe and faith in God) the church was not able yet to finalise her mind fully for excluding answers and teaching.

But all theologians, when referring to questions we don’t absolutely know, agree, this particular subject as not really relevant to our believe in God. The Church works ever since 2000 years hard on finding a final truth. We can’t expect to know just as much, as the Church will know in another 2000 years to come (if they come). The Apostles thought theirs was the final time, and so did Jesus who added: Not even the son, but the Father alone knows when the end of time has come.
So – there are many things, no one but the Father knows.

A disgrace though, when theologians deny hell or preach allforgiveness. But at other questions, that are of no real reference to our believe in God, we easily might lean back and wait until we see. We all know and believe absolutely, that there was a ‘Holding/Waiting/Suspended condition’ for those intended for heaven before Jesus Christ’s salvation. But what makes us think God just could not do as He wanted to with those who God wanted to heighten in(to) heaven before Christ?

However – such details that are just relevant to God and this single persons, don’t make any difference to our faith in God or in Church.

By the way: This thread has come far off topic, which was: Is it enough to be good?
No, it’s not. And there have been many links to the Bible, that underlined, that it’s not just private opinion.**
 
By the way: This thread has come far off topic, which was: Is it enough to be good?
No, it’s not. And there have been many links to the Bible, that underlined, that it’s not just private opinion.
We all know a co-worker, neighbor or friend who is very nice, and usually generous. They are pleasant to associate with and often do the physical part of God’s will. Yet, they do not serve God purposefully. Their hearts may be far from Him. The Pharisees had trumpets sound before their large contributions to the Temple. They did the physical labor of God’s love, yet their “hearts are far from me” (Isaiah 29:13, quoted by Christ in Matthew 15:8 and Mark 7:6). And, this referred to those who praised God with their lips! What about those who d not even do that?
 
We all know a co-worker, neighbor or friend who is very nice, and usually generous. They are pleasant to associate with and often do the physical part of God’s will. Yet, they do not serve God purposefully. Their hearts may be far from Him. The Pharisees had trumpets sound before their large contributions to the Temple. They did the physical labor of God’s love, yet their “hearts are far from me” (Isaiah 29:13, quoted by Christ in Matthew 15:8 and Mark 7:6). And, this referred to those who praised God with their lips! What about those who d not even do that?
But I don’t think the Pharisees would serve as a good example in this case because they were guilty of pride and legalism as opposed to the humility and selfless love apparent in the case of the monk. The former are characteristics God hates and resists while the latter are qualities He loves and exalts.
 
But I don’t think the Pharisees would serve as a good example in this case because they were guilty of pride and legalism as opposed to the humility and selfless love apparent in the case of the monk.
doesn’t that fit precisely on many of us?
In fact, Pharisees have been seen very devotional
 
But I don’t think the Pharisees would serve as a good example in this case because they were guilty of pride and legalism as opposed to the humility and selfless love apparent in the case of the monk. The former are characteristics God hates and resists while the latter are qualities He loves and exalts.
Point taken, but the Pharisees were capable of love. It was just of themselves and those dear to them. Those who do good to serve their conscience and not specifically to serve God, are similar in a fashion: Luke 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them”.

Love comes from God, Who is love. He specifically gave us that capacity, expecting us to use it. To love God is to humble yourself. We must also love because we are commanded by God to love. But, if you replace your motivation of “God” with “society” or “goodness” you have problems. Then you love because of prevailing societal pressures or expectations. And those are subject to change, whereas God is not.

Those who do good outside of God are not humbling themselves and are receiving worldly rewards. That is precisely Pharisaic.
 
doesn’t that fit precisely on many of us?
In fact, Pharisees have been seen very devotional
Yes, in fact until Gods’ finished molding us into the perfection He deems worthy of heaven, we’ll probably always struggle with this tendency.
 
Point taken, but the Pharisees were capable of love. It was just of themselves and those dear to them. Those who do good to serve their conscience and not specifically to serve God, are similar in a fashion: Luke 6:32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them”.

Love comes from God, Who is love. He specifically gave us that capacity, expecting us to use it. To love God is to humble yourself. We must also love because we are commanded by God to love. But, if you replace your motivation of “God” with “society” or “goodness” you have problems. Then you love because of prevailing societal pressures or expectations. And those are subject to change, whereas God is not.

Those who do good outside of God are not humbling themselves and are receiving worldly rewards. That is precisely Pharisaic.
I understand what you’re saying. The question becomes, since love comes from -and is an expression of -God, do we say that the good Samaritan -or the gentiles referred to in Rom 12:14-15 for that matter-are necessarily incapable of expressing that love?
 
I understand what you’re saying. The question becomes, since love comes from -and is an expression of -God, do we say that the good Samaritan -or the gentiles referred to in Rom 12:14-15 for that matter-are necessarily incapable of expressing that love?
Love is written by God on the human heart. However, love must be properly ordered toward God. Through our own fault, we can love evil things as well as good. Only when love is properly ordered can God be served. IMO.
 
Love is written by God on the human heart. However, love must be properly ordered toward God. Through our own fault, we can love evil things as well as good. Only when love is properly ordered can God be served. IMO.
I have asked in previous writings about this Heart we speak of. You and many others refer to it often.
Please explain where in a person this Heart is? God writes on the human Heart. Where does he write this love? Do you believe its part of your body?
 
**Times ago, people thought, that the heart is where the soul is. The soul is in the heart they thought.
So, you might take the word heart for soul.

Yes, soul is part of your body, for you would not be alive and a thinking human, if you had no soul.

Since you had your soul from God, God gave you some knowledge of God on your way, when He choose you to live. God wrote it into your heart, that you are Gods own property.
So to speak a GI of God= Gods Issue. Excuse this “blasphemic” way of talking. It’s not. It’s love of God.

You understand now what “heart” in preference to life in God means?
**
 

**Times ago, people thought, that the heart is where the soul is. The soul is in the heart they thought.
So, you might take the word heart for soul.

Yes, soul is part of your body, for you would not be alive and a thinking human, if you had no soul.

Since you had your soul from God, God gave you some knowledge of God on your way, when He choose you to live. God wrote it into your heart, that you are Gods own property.
So to speak a GI of God= Gods Issue. Excuse this “blasphemic” way of talking. It’s not. It’s love of God.

You understand now what “heart” in preference to life in God means?
**
******If I can understand you correctly Gods breathed a soul into all mankind. A man or women cannot exist without a soul.
I can surely accept this. This would include non-christians of course, since we are speaking of humanity in its entirety.

Does an atheist have a soul?
Would a person have the ability to believe in God if God did not choose to write it his your soul? Are we speaking of predestination here? Did God, in his infinite wisdom choose particular individuals throughout history to be blessed, and turns away from others?

The terminology; Heart and Soul are used many times in Catholic Doctrine. I must emphasize two seperate entities HEART &, {making the distinction on the AND} SOUL.

Is it to be believed the Heart of Christ is the same as the Soul of Christ?

I believe there is a clear distinction.******
 
If I can understand you correctly Gods breathed a soul into all mankind. A man or women cannot exist without a soul.

**Why couldn’t they? Birds, Fish and Animals exist without souls, don’t they? **

I can surely accept this. This would include non-christians of course, since we are speaking of humanity in its entirety.Does an atheist have a soul?

**You just like to ask questions, don’t you Jon? 😃 **

Would a person have the ability to believe in God if God did not choose to write it his your soul?

**Are you serious with this question?:rolleyes: **

Are we speaking of predestination here? Did God, in his infinite wisdom choose particular individuals throughout history to be blessed, and turns away from others?

**Yes, Catholics! :rolleyes: **

The terminology; Heart and Soul are used many times in Catholic Doctrine. I must emphasize two seperate entities HEART &, {making the distinction on the AND} SOUL.

Come on Jon, I am sure that you know that the adverb “heart and soul” has nothing to do with Catholic Doctrine as much as it has to do with speaking the English language. It means: Completely; entirely. The entirety of one’s energies or affections. For example, “He put his heart and soul into his work” Do you really think someone took his heart and soul and placed them in his work, or is that just a figure of speech? 😃

Is it to be believed the Heart of Christ is the same as the Soul of Christ?
**
I am glad you asked that! 😃 The nature of this question is complex and frequently becomes more complicated because of the difficulties arising from terminology. Omitting terms that are over-technical, I can tell you of the ideas themselves, and, then you may find your answer.

(a) The word heart awakens, first of all, the idea of a material heart, of the vital organ that throbs within our bosom, and which we vaguely realize as intimately connected not only with our own physical, but with our emotional and moral life. Now this heart of flesh is currently accepted as the emblem of the emotion and moral life with which we associate it, and hence the place assigned to the word heart in symbolic language, as also the use of the same word to designate those things symbolized by the heart. Note, for instance, the expressions “to open one’s heart”, “to give one’s heart”, etc. It may happen that the symbol becomes divested of its material meaning that the sign is overlooked in beholding only the thing signified. Thus, in current language, the word soul no longer suggests the thought of breath, and the word heart brings to mind only the idea of courage and love. But this is perhaps a figure of speech or a metaphor, rather than a symbol. A symbol is a real sign, whereas a metaphor is only a verbal sign; a symbol is a thing that signifies another thing, but a metaphor is a word used to indicate something different from its proper meaning. Finally, in current language, we are constantly passing from the part to the whole, and, by a perfectly natural figure of speech, we use the word heart to designate a person. These ideas will aid us in determining the object of the devotion to the Heart of Christ.

(b) The question lies between the material, the metaphorical, and the symbolic sense of the word heart; whether the object of the devotion is the Heart of flesh, as such, or the love of Jesus Christ metaphorically signified by the word heart; or the Heart of flesh, but as symbol of the emotional and moral life of Jesus, and especially His love for us. We reply that worship is rightly paid to the Heart of flesh, inasmuch as the latter symbolizes and recalls the love of Jesus, and His emotional and moral life. Thus, although directed to the material Heart, it does not stop there: it also includes love, that love which is its principal object, but which it reaches only in and through the Heart of flesh, the sign and symbol of this love. Devotion to the Heart of Christ alone, as to a noble part of His Divine Body, would not be devotion to the Sacred Heart as understood and approved by the Church, and the same must also be said of devotion to the soul of Christ as detached from His Heart of flesh, or else connected there with by no other tie than that of a word taken in the metaphorical sense as recalled and symbolically represented to us by His Heart of flesh.

(c) Hence the devotion to the heart of Christ is based entirely upon the symbolism of the heart. It is sufficient for our devotion that we know and feel this intimate connection. We have nothing to do with the physiology of the Sacred Heart nor with determining the exact functions of the heart in daily life. We know that the symbolism of the heart is a symbolism founded upon reality and that it constitutes the special object of the devotion to the Heart of Christ, which devotion is in no danger of falling into error.

(d) The Soul of Christ is, above all, an emblem of love, and by its characteristic, the Heart of Christ is naturally defined. However, being directly part of the Heart of Christ, it naturally encounters whatever in Christ is connected with this love. Now, was not this love the motive of all that Christ did and suffered? Was not all His inner, even more than His outward, life dominated by this love? On the other hand, when we designate Jesus as the Heart of Christ, we mean Jesus all loving and amiable. I hope that explains it for you.👍 **

I believe there is a clear distinction

**
I just said that, didn’t I? :rolleyes:

Now I have a question for you, Jon, Was Georg Christoph Lichtenberg correct when he said “A person reveals his intelligence by nothing so clearly as the questions he asks.”:confused:

God Bless

**
 
I have asked in previous writings about this Heart we speak of. You and many others refer to it often.
Please explain where in a person this Heart is? God writes on the human Heart. Where does he write this love? Do you believe its part of your body?
To a degree, “heart” is interchangeable with “soul”, but they are not exactly alike. Our ability to love, which comes from our hearts, is a large part of our soul, but not all of it. In the CCC section 478, paraphrased in the Compendium of the Catechism (USCCB publication) it states: “Jesus knew us and loves us with a human heart. His heart, pierced for our salvation, is the symbol of that infinite love with which He loves the Father and each one of us”
 
**It’s a romantic full moon, when Pedro said, ‘Hey, mamacita, let’s do Weeweechu.’

Oh no, not now, let’s look at the moon!’ said Rosita.

Oh, c’mon baby, let’s you and I do Weeweechu. I love you and it’s the perfect time,’ Pedro begged.

‘But I wanna just hold your hand and watch the moon.’ replied Rosita.

Please, corazoncito, just once, do Weeweechu with me.’

Rosita looked at Pedro and said, ‘OK, one time, we’ll do Weeweechu.’

Pedro grabbed his guitar,

and they both sang…

‘Weeweechu a Merry Christmas, Weeweechu a Merry Christmas, Weeweechu a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year.’

And exactly what were you think of? :rolleyes: **

**
MERRY CHRISTMAS !!! 👍 **
**
Who is going to explain this joke to Bruno?

God Bless**
 
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