Is it heretical to pray that Jews continue to follow the Old Covenant?

[Shin]

(4) Stephen was right in calling them stiff-necked. For they failed to take up the yoke of Christ, although it was sweet and had nothing about it which was either burdensome or oppressive. For he said: “Learn from me for I am meek and humble of heart”, and “Take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is sweet and my burden light”. Nonetheless they failed to take up the yoke because of the stiffness of their necks. Not only did they fail to take it up but they broke it and destroyed it. For Jeremiah said: “Long ago you broke your yoke and burst your bonds”. It was not Paul who said this but the voice of the prophet speaking loud and clear. When he spoke of the yoke and the bonds, he meant the symbols of rule, because the Jews rejected the rule of Christ when they said: “We have no king but Caesar”. You Jews broke the yoke, you burst the bonds, you cast yourselves out of the kingdom of heaven, and you made yourselves subject to the rule of men. Please consider with me how accurately the prophet hinted that their hearts were uncontrolled. He did not say: “You set aside the yoke”, but “You broke the yoke” and this is the crime of untamed beasts, who are uncontrolled and reject rule.

(5) But what is the source of this hardness? It come from gluttony and drunkenness. Who say so? Moses himself. “Israel ate and was filled and the darling grew fat and frisky”. When brute animals feed from a full manger, they grow plump and become more obstinate and hard to hold in check; they endure neither the yoke, the reins, nor the hand of the charioteer. Just so the Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: “Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer”. And still another called the Jews “an untamed calf”.

(6) Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: “But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them”. You Jews should have fasted then, when drunkenness was doing those terrible things to you, when your gluttony was giving birth to your ungodliness-not now. Now your fasting is untimely and an abomination. Who said so? Isaiah himself when he called out in a loud voice: “I did not choose this fast, say the Lord”. Why? “You quarrel and squabble when you fast and strike those subject to you with your fists”. But if you fasting was an abomination when you were striking your fellow slaves, does it become acceptable now that you have slain your Master? How could that be right?

(7) The man who fast should be properly restrained, contrite, humbled-not drunk with anger. But do you strike your fellow slaves? In Isaiah’s day they quarreled and squabbled when they fasted; now when fast, they go in for excesses and the ultimate licentiousness, dancing with bare feet in the marketplace. The pretext is that they are fasting, but they act like men who are drunk. Hear how the prophet bit them to fast. “Sanctify a fast”, he said. He did not say: “Make a parade of your fasting”, but “call an assembly; gather together the ancients”. But these Jews are gathering choruses of effeminates and a great rubbish heap of harlots; they drag into the synagogue the whole theater, actors and all. For there is no difference between the theater and the synagogue. I know that some suspect me of rashness because I said there is no difference between the theater and the synagogue; but I suspect them of rashness if they do not think that this is so. If my declaration that the two are the same rests on my own authority, then charge me with rashness. But if the words I speak are the words of the prophet, then accept his decision.

III

Many, I know, respect the Jews and think that their present way of life is a venerable one. This is why I hasten to uproot and tear out this deadly opinion. I said that the synagogue is no better than a theater and I bring forward a prophet as my witness. Surely the Jews are not more deserving of belief than their prophets. “You had a harlot’s brow; you became shameless before all”. Where a harlot has set herself up, that place is a brothel. But the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it also is a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts. Jeremiah said: “Your house has become for me the den of a hyena”. He does not simply say “of wild beast”, but “of a filthy wild beast”, and again: “I have abandoned my house, I have cast off my inheritance”. But when God forsakes a people, what hope of salvation is left? When God forsakes a place, that place becomes the dwelling of demons.

(2) But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who say so? The Son of God say so. For he said: “If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father”. Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God?

(3) If, then, the Jews fail to know the Father, if they crucified the Son, if they thrust off the help of the Spirit, who should not make bold to declare plainly that the synagogue is a dwelling of demons? God is not worshipped there. Heaven forbid! From now on it remains a place of idolatry. But still some people pay it honor as a holy place.

 

[Shin]

The ‘fit for the slaughter’ remark reminds me of the major rebellions of the Jews against the Roman Empire which caused indeed a great slaughter, from the destruction of the Temple to false worldly ‘Messiahs’ to replace Christ such as the Bar Kokhba rebellion.

I don’t know the full meaning of what Chysostom’s statement might be referring to offhand, perhaps something like the above, but I know it is a spiritual balanced reasoning for the statement and not immoral.

We must not interpret with the ears of people of today’s standards of speech the inferences and conclusions people today come to into the words of the Fathers and saints. Such standards did not exist back then.

 

[diggerdomer]

The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God. If you would like to dispute that, I can send you a plethora or sources.

Romans 11:25-28 For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery (lest you should be wise in your own conceits) that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. And this is to them my covenant: when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers.

Notice also that it says that God’s covenant with them is when he shall take away their sins, meaning when they shall come into the Church, the sole ark of salvation. Please read my earlier posts. I already cited tons of Scriptures relevant to our discussion.

You’re cherry-picking Scripture verses to support your thoughts. This seems like proof-testing.

I could just as easily quote Romans 3:

What advantage is there then in being a Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much, in every respect. (For) in the first place, they were entrusted with the utterances of God.

Well OBVIOUSLY Scripture says there are many benefits of being a Jew. Hardly an enemy of the Gospel, no?

Where does the Church teach–not simply picking and choosing an isolated verse from Scripture – what you say, that Jews are the enemies? Where does the Church teach this…of course considering Scripture and coherent with its witness?

 

[chosen_people]

Jews are enemies of the gospel of Christ, as they teach lies concerning him. You earlier denied the Divinity of Christ and said that it was some made up fairytale borrowed from some pagan god-man idea. Jews deny that Jesus is the Christ, their Messiah, and as such are the enemies of Christians in reference to the truth of God’s teaching and revelation.

The wording in some of those quotes you provided actually isn’t that far out there, but you need to understand the context. Here are some of my earlier posts with some Scriptures where Christ and St. Steven said similar things: POST 72 POST 73 POST 75

I would like to know, however, your source for the first quote you provided. Do you have a url link perhaps? Thanks.

The adherents of Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism also do not share your beliefs but you do not refer to them as “enemies” -

only the Jews

Jews not only do not teach that people of other faiths are their enemy but that it is easier for the gentile than for the Jew to get to the world to come

Understand the meaning of referring to Jews as enemies - understand the meaning of declarations that the Jews are as beasts fit only for slaughter - and you may start as a Catholic to begin to grasp Jedwabne.

Now as for your request - I find it hard to believe that someone who referred to Jews as enemies of Christianity has never read all eight homilies against the Jews by that learned Catholic Saint. I should warn you before you go to google and inadvertently contribute to the destruction of Christianity that google was co founded by a Jew and its advanced text algorithms are a product of the Jewish state (so please take extreme care!).

For my part when I go back to work on Sunday, I will check to see if despite we Jews being enemies of Christianity I can still see the church from my window.

 

[Shin]

The adherents of Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism also do not share your beliefs but you do not refer to them as “enemies” -

only the Jews

Jews not only do not teach that people of other faiths are their enemy but that it is easier for the gentile than for the Jew to get to the world to come

Understand the meaning of referring to Jews as enemies - understand the meaning of declarations that the Jews are as beasts fit only for slaughter - and you may start as a Catholic to begin to grasp Jedwabne.

Now as for your request - I find it hard to believe that someone who referred to Jews as enemies of Christianity has never read all eight homilies against the Jews by that learned Catholic Saint. I should warn you before you go to google and inadvertently contribute to the destruction of Christianity that google was co founded by a Jew and its advanced text algorithms are a product of the Jewish state (so please take extreme care!).

For my part when I go back to work on Sunday, I will check to see if despite we Jews being enemies of Christianity I can still see the church from my window.

Have you read the Talmud lately? If you google ‘Talmud kill Christians’, go ahead, some quotations pop up that are quite direct. Kill, lie, cheat, steal… it’s all fine if the person is not a Jew… as long as all technical boxes are checked… Do you deny that these are correct?

These go a step far beyond anything of St. John Chrysostom’s… and so many are truly condemnable and not spiritual – sourced in post-Temple Pharisaical Judaism rather than pre-. . . But I would say that where there also are similar statements to St. John’s and so however hard, not condemnable in the historical sense because they have fundamentally the same reason historically. . at first the Jews were the people of God, and so of a greater morality generally when truly faithful than the other nations – and so they could to an extent have different standards of treatment for themselves and for those who naturally being outside the people of God were generally more immoral and so said to be handed over to the devils, ‘the enemy’.

Now the shoe is on the other foot, and privileges from one have been transferred to the other.

But rather than focus on the spiritual effects of being against Christ and the great interior dangers this causes, we today try to focus on bringing people together despite this. Only to a degree is this possible while religion differs.

But it is quite possible. And those who come from the Jewish perspective should look to what their scriptures say to them when they rebellious against God and understand the Christian perspective, just as Christians have to understand the Talmud perspective and the perspective that they are still the gentiles on the outside in the Old Testament, ‘the dogs’ to the Jews.

 

[chosen_people]

Have you read the Talmud lately? If you google ‘Talmud kill Christians’, go ahead, some quotations pop up that are quite direct. Kill, lie, cheat, steal… it’s all fine if the person is not a Jew… as long as all technical boxes are checked… Do you deny that these are correct?

These go a step far beyond anything of St. John Chrysostom’s… and so many are truly condemnable and not spiritual – sourced in post-Temple Pharisaical Judaism rather than pre-. . . But I would say that where there also are similar statements to St. John’s and so however hard, not condemnable in the historical sense because they have fundamentally the same reason historically. . at first the Jews were the people of God, and so of a greater morality generally when truly faithful than the other nations – and so they could to an extent have different standards of treatment for themselves and for those who naturally being outside the people of God were generally more immoral and so said to be handed over to the devils, ‘the enemy’.

Now the shoe is on the other foot, and privileges from one have been transferred to the other.

But rather than focus on the spiritual effects of being against Christ and the great interior dangers this causes, we today try to focus on bringing people together despite this. Only to a degree is this possible while religion differs.

But it is quite possible. And those who come from the Jewish perspective should look to what their scriptures say to them when they rebellious against God and understand the Christian perspective, just as Christians have to understand the Talmud perspective and the perspective that they are still the gentiles on the outside in the Old Testament, ‘the dogs’ to the Jews.

Well actually I have read and studied Talmud and obviously you have not. All that you have read are anti-Semitic websites repeating these made up idiocies against Jews.

Please go to: talmud.faithweb.com/ and read what is written there - hopefully your spreading of anti-Semitic lies was based on ignorance and you will see fit to make a full retraction once you are properly informed.

 

[Shin]

I’ve also read the online Jewish Encyclopedia which has entries on Jesus and Gentiles.

Though I hesitate to cite them they are so immoral in their views and conclusions.

 

[Shin]

For my part I believe that there are different interpretations of the Talmud and that the truth is between the two.

Sometimes it was believed one way, sometimes the other by various subgroups. Naturally there was plenty of real hatred among the Jews for Christians throughout history, real prejudice… just as vice versa.

And I think the historical evidence is in on this in some respects…

We can look at the treatment of Christians today in Israel… or look at militant Judaism in the past… The armies that rebelled searching for worldly Messiahs, that would give the Jews world domination… rather than spiritual rulership… material vs. spiritual messiahs…

St. Paul himself, after all, was a Jew who followed the Pharisaical school that triumphed within Judaism after Christianity sprang out of it, and Christianity was always a more ‘intent of the law rather than letter’ religion to contrast to it…

And he went around killing Christians before his conversion.

I know of some web boards and forums where the Jew/Christian distinction is kept very clear. This is of course more among more serious religious Judaism, not liberal Judaism though that of course has its own problems.

 

[chosen_people]

For my part I believe that there are different interpretations of the Talmud and that the truth is between the two.

Sometimes it was believed one way, sometimes the other by various subgroups. Naturally there was plenty of real hatred among the Jews for Christians throughout history, real prejudice… just as vice versa.

And I think the historical evidence is in on this in some respects…

We can look at the treatment of Christians today in Israel… or look at militant Judaism in the past… The armies that rebelled searching for worldly Messiahs, that would give the Jews world domination… rather than spiritual rulership… material vs. spiritual messiahs…

St. Paul himself, after all, was a Jew who followed the Pharisaical school that triumphed within Judaism after Christianity sprang out of it, and Christianity was always a more ‘intent of the law rather than letter’ religion to contrast to it…

And he went around killing Christians before his conversion.

I know of some web boards and forums where the Jew/Christian distinction is kept very clear. This is of course more among more serious religious Judaism, not liberal Judaism though that of course has its own problems.

Your statement “For my part I believe that there are different interpretations of the Talmud and that the truth is between the two” is proof, if such proof is needed, both as to your erudition and your depth of understanding on this subject. Indeed when I give a dynamic interpretation to a law, balancing between the various conflicting interests, can my interpretation be regarded as “the truth”? An interesting philosophical (may we dare say Talmudic) question which I suggest we deal with after you actually have an slight inkling as to what is the Talmud .

As a Jew, an academic and a Judge, thank you for bringing to my attention that Jews hate and have persecuted Christians for the last two thousand years, that Christians in Israel are being persecuted by the Jews and that Jews seek world domination. This was something that I and my fellow Jews did not previously know. If only we had known we could have figured out why Christians were so mad at us and why we were constantly being murdered, expelled and forced converted by them. Now just to clear the air I think we should exchange lists. I’ll list all the religious persecutions of Jews by Christians in the last fifteen hundred years and you list all the religious persecutions of Christians by Jews in the last fifteen hundred years (and no Stalin was not Jewish).

 

[Shin]

Yes, yes, I was quite prepared for you to say that only Christians persecuted Jews and never vice versa. That only the Popes, Catholics, etc. oppressed the Jews and the Jews always turned the other cheek… or wait was that not from the New Testament? They never started anything themselves or returned the favor…

Never killed Christians… never incited the Romans against them… never… What myth history would that be? One where the Pope didn’t save the Jews during the holocaust perhaps?

That there has been a historical belief in a conquering and material messiah can easily be looked up by anyone, it has its popularity at times. Bar Kokhba was mentioned earlier.

However, you should start your own thread on that and not derail this one on a different subject. I do not know that I will participate however. I merely wished to place in the proper context the words of the Doctors and Fathers.

Honestly I have no antagonism here, and this thread was so relatively peaceful it doesn’t need these accusations to fly. I wish however you would see that it is all not so one sided as you seem to think, and that the shoe from one foot can fit the other.

 

[chosen_people]

Yes, yes, I was quite prepared for you to say that only Christians persecuted Jews and never vice versa. That only the Popes, Catholics, etc. oppressed the Jews and the Jews always turned the other cheek… or wait was that not from the New Testament? They never started anything themselves or returned the favor…

Never killed Christians… never incited the Romans against them… never… What myth history would that be? One where the Pope didn’t save the Jews during the holocaust perhaps?

That there has been a historical belief in a conquering and material messiah can easily be looked up by anyone, it has its popularity at times. Bar Kokhba was mentioned earlier.

However, you should start your own thread on that and not derail this one on a different subject. I do not know that I will participate however. I merely wished to place in the proper context the words of the Doctors and Fathers.

Honestly I have no antagonism here, and this thread was so relatively peaceful it doesn’t need these accusations to fly. I wish however you would see that it is all not so one sided as you seem to think, and that the shoe from one foot can fit the other.

This thread is ultimately about Jews and disdain towards Jews and Judaism in Catholicism. You feel you can make false anti-Semitic comments about Jews and the Talmud with impunity and when you can’t reply with your list of Jewish persecutions of Christians in the last fifteen hundred years or give a basis to your anti-Semitic statement of world Jewish domination or give true examples from the Talmud, you now claim that everything malicious thing you raised and said about Jews was off topic

Indeed things were peaceful when you could write your anti-Jewish comments without having someone to reply. Your attitude that Jews are just getting what’s coming to them for their audacity to not break their eternal covenant with God is not new. It has been the rallying cry and the justification for persecution of Jews throughout the centuries.

 

[Shin]

This thread is ultimately about Jews and disdain towards Jews and Judaism in Catholicism. You feel you can make false anti-Semitic comments about Jews and the Talmud with impunity and when you can’t reply with your list of Jewish persecutions of Christians in the last fifteen hundred years or give a basis to your anti-Semitic statement of world Jewish domination or give true examples from the Talmud, you now claim that everything malicious thing you raised and said about Jews was off topic

Indeed things were peaceful when you could write your anti-Jewish comments without having someone to reply. Your attitude that Jews are just getting what’s coming to them for their audacity to not break their eternal covenant with God is not new. It has been the rallying cry and the justification for persecution of Jews throughout the centuries.

What this thread is about is ‘is it heretical to pray that Jews continue to follow the Old Covenant’ you are the person who trying to derail the thread, and you started with with quotes taken out of context from the Doctors of the Church.

And now you are accusing me of anti-Semitism which I completely deny. This is very sad and uncharitable of you, you should not make such accusations so lightly of anyone. It is very poisonous.

 

[una_fides]

You’re cherry-picking Scripture verses to support your thoughts. This seems like proof-testing.

If I am just “proof texting,” then can you please show me how the context renders the understanding of that verse to be different? Can you please provide me with the correct understanding and interpretation of the verse that says that the Jews are our “enemies for the sake of the gospel”?

I could just as easily quote Romans 3:

“What advantage is there then in being a Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much, in every respect. (For) in the first place, they were entrusted with the utterances of God.”

Well OBVIOUSLY Scripture says there are many benefits of being a Jew. Hardly an enemy of the Gospel, no?

The difference here is that I agree completely with the verse you cited from Scripture, but I do not believe that it contradicts at all the other Scripture I cited. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, just as truth cannot contradict truth. Both statements of Scripture must be understood to be true. There are advantages to being a Jew in that God has given them so many blessings including entrusting them with his own divine utterances and most especially by sending them their Messiah His Son. At the same time, the Jews who reject the Son are the enemies of the Gospel of Christ.

Here is some Catholic commentary on the Scripture you cited. Please note that the correct understanding of Rom 3 does not contradict or rule out the understanding that the Jews are the enemies of the gospel.

“Rom 3:1 What advantage then? &c. The apostle, not to offend the Jews, by insisting too long in reprehending them, turns his discourse to the advantages they have hitherto had above other nations. As first, that the words of God, those divine oracles, revelations, promises in the Scriptures, were credited or intrusted to them. And though some, or many of them have not believed God’s promises, especially concerning their Messias; this hath not hindered God from being faithful to his word, in sending the Messias, and those blessings that were promised with him. For God is always true, or faithful in his promises, and therefore must needs be justified, or found just, when his proceedings are judged, that is, considered and examined. (Witham)”

Here is from a more modern Catholic Commentary as well:
“Rom 3:1-31 III 1-2. A Fourth Objection— If the Law and Circumcision cannot save Israel what then remains of Israel’s so highly-praised privileges? Paul’s reply begins as if he intended to answer with a long description of Israel’s privileged position as in 9:4. In fact, however, he does not get beyond the first. point, that she has been entrusted with the Scriptures. 2. ‘The words of God’: can mean (1) the whole OT; (2) the Messianic promises in the OT, because Of v 3.”

You must understand the context and the argument flow St. Paul is making to understand what he means in explaining Israel’s favored position. He is certainly not contradicting his other divinely inspired and inerrant writings that state that the Jews need to have faith in Christ for salvation.

Where does the Church teach–not simply picking and choosing an isolated verse from Scripture – what you say, that Jews are the enemies? Where does the Church teach this…of course considering Scripture and coherent with its witness?

The Church has been teaching this truth for 2000 years. Do you believe that Jews are our allies concerning the gospel? Do you seriously believe that they are helping spread the gospel of Christ and are leading people into his Catholic Church by teaching that Jesus Christ was just a man and that his followers made up everything about him and that our Christian religion is a lie? Yes, they are our enemies for the sake of the gospel. Do you really need a pope to explain to you this simple reality? Yes, the language might seem offensive, but are not our Lord Jesus Christ’s words also offensive to the Jews? Again please read my earlier posts on Christ’s words to the Jews in calling them hypocrites, a den of vipers, stiff-necked, etc…

The Church does not need to explicitly repeat this verse in Scripture or any verse in Scripture in order for it to be authoritative or true. If a pope repeated that verse, would it then mean that the Church has accepted that Scripture and if not that this particular Scripture was not accepted by the Church? Such an idea would be most absurd and laughable to say the least. The Church has repeatedly taught that the Scriptures are the inspired and inerrant Word of God and has said that the way to interpret them is in accord with the witness of the Church fathers (aka apostolic Tradition). If you want to correctly understand this verse, that is already clear as day, read the early Church fathers and see how they interpreted it.

 

[una_fides]

****diggerdomer, ****

Here is some more on this phrase “enemy of God.”

In Luke 19:27, Christ referrs to the Jews of his day as the enemies of God.

This phrase is also repeated in Philippians 3:

Php 3:17-19 Be ye followers of me, brethren: and observe them who walk so as you have our model. For many walk, of whom I have told you often (and now tell you weeping) that they are enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction: whose God is their belly: and whose glory is in their shame: who mind earthly things.

Here are some Catholic Commentaries on these verses:

• “He repeats to them, with tears, what he had formerly told them, that many walk and conduct themselves as enemies to the cross of Christ, to Christ crucified, by abandoning themselves to the pleasures of a sensual life, who glory in things they ought to be ashamed of. He hints at the disciples of Simon Magus, or of the Jewish doctors. (Witham)” (Haydock)
• “18. ‘many’, i.e. Jews and Judaizers; but the general impression one gets is that relatively they are not very numerous or important at Philippi itself, though always a dangerous element for the Christian communities. ‘enemies of the cross of Christ’ in several ways, not understanding that thereby Christ had taken wholly upon himself the curse attaching to the non-observance of the Law by Jews, Gal_3:13, as well as atoning for all the sins of mankind etc.” (A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture)

Scripture again lastly uses this phrase to be an “enemy of God” also referring to those who commit adultery and are “friends of the world”:

“Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world becometh an enemy of God. Or do you think that the scripture saith in vain: To envy doth the spirit covet which dwelleth in you? But he giveth greater grace. Wherefore he saith: God resisteth the proud and giveth grace to the humble.”(James 4:4-6)

Hope this helps.

 

[gentle_atheist]

Here is the Good Friday prayer in its entirety:

Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. :: Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

I would like to know – especially from posters diggerdomer and chosen people – what do they think the Church is praying for?

 

[diggerdomer]

Here is the Good Friday prayer in its entirety:

Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. :: Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

I would like to know – especially from posters diggerdomer and chosen people – what do they think the Church is praying for?

that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.

that they may arrive at the fullness of redemption

 

[Through_Him]

Here is the Good Friday prayer in its entirety:

Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant. :: Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

I would like to know – especially from posters diggerdomer and chosen people – what do they think the Church is praying for?

I would say that we are praying for them to have faith, hope and love. Hearing Jesus but they have not taken him to their heart. We can not see the air we breathe but we believe it is there, we cannot touch it or grab it or smell air, we can the scents but not the air but we breathe it into our lungs our heart, we call it air just because that is a good name for it, but Jesus has to be taken into the heart more than just hearing that is how we grow by the Holy Spirit. A child wants something tangible to touch to believe. When the child can let the senses go and really hear Jesus in the heart then they can experience the fullness of redemption.

So the syllabus or synopsis;
Or Plan;

1. Pray for faith
2. Hear Jesus and breathe into the heart
3. Love of His Name
4. And His Covenant
5. Listen to the Church
6. Hope People arrive
7. To redemption

 

[una_fides]

The question is not whether the Jews are within the physical Church, we know that is not the case. The question is whether they are united to the Church. This is what Nostra Aetate has to say about this.

Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.

This statement does not mean what you want it to mean. Here is the verse to which that text is referring:

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

That verse is not saying that Jews who reject Christ are still somehow united to the Church, and how you get such an idea surprises me. Jews and Greeks become one in Christ Jesus the same way–through entering his sole ark of salvation, the Catholic Church. Jews may share some beliefs with us, but that does not make them members of the Mystical Body any more than it does the visible Body.

Regarding the Mystical Body:

Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis, Encyclical Letter Concerning Some False Opinions Which Threaten to Undermine the Foundations of Catholic Doctrine, August 12, 1950:
27. Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the Sources of Revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[11] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the True Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian faith. 28. These and like errors, it is clear, have crept in among certain of Our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science. To them We are compelled with grief to repeat once again truths already well known, and to point out with solicitude clear errors and dangers of error. newadvent.org/library/docs_pi12hg.htm

Jews who reject Christ are not inside his Church. You can’t try to interpret your way around it or take texts out of context and twist them to mean something entirely different. Yes, Jews and Gentiles are one when they are IN Christ Jesus. Nevertheless, any Jew or any Gentile who rejects Christ does not have Christ and is not made one in Christ. Only those who enter the Church are one in Christ Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. You must be careful not to interpret any time you see the word ‘Jew’ as meaning one who follows Judaism and who does not accept Jesus as Lord. Many of the members of the early Church were Jewish, including all the apostles and St. Paul especially who was a “pharisee of pharisees.”

Philippians 3:2 “Beware of dogs: beware of evil workers: beware of the concision.”

Haydock’s Commentary: ‘Beware of dogs.’ The Jews called so the Gentiles; and St. Paul now applies it to those among the Jews who spread false doctrine, who privately snarled and publicly barked against the true apostles.

“3 For we are the circumcision, who in spirit serve God and glory in Christ Jesus, not having confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other thinketh he may have confidence in the flesh, I more: 5 Being circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews. According to the law, a Pharisee: 6 According to zeal, persecuting the church of God: According to the justice that is in the law, conversing without blame. 7 But the things that were gain to me, the same I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Furthermore, I count all things to be but loss for the excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ, my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but as dung, that I may gain Christ. 9 And may be found in him, not having my justice, which is of the law, but that which is of the faith of Christ Jesus, which is of God: justice in faith. 10 That I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings: being made conformable to his death, 11 If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, or were already perfect: but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. … 17 Be ye followers of me, brethren: and observe them who walk so as you have our model. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often (and now tell you weeping) that they are enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction: whose God is their belly: and whose glory is in their shame: who mind earthly things.”

 

[diggerdomer]

If I am just “proof texting,” then can you please show me how the context renders the understanding of that verse to be different? Can you please provide me with the correct understanding and interpretation of the verse that says that the Jews are our “enemies for the sake of the gospel”?

The difference here is that I agree completely with the verse you cited from Scripture, but I do not believe that it contradicts at all the other Scripture I cited. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, just as truth cannot contradict truth. Both statements of Scripture must be understood to be true. There are advantages to being a Jew in that God has given them so many blessings including entrusting them with his own divine utterances and most especially by sending them their Messiah His Son. At the same time, the Jews who reject the Son are the enemies of the Gospel of Christ.

Here is some Catholic commentary on the Scripture you cited. Please note that the correct understanding of Rom 3 does not contradict or rule out the understanding that the Jews are the enemies of the gospel.

“Rom 3:1 What advantage then? &c. The apostle, not to offend the Jews, by insisting too long in reprehending them, turns his discourse to the advantages they have hitherto had above other nations. As first, that the words of God, those divine oracles, revelations, promises in the Scriptures, were credited or intrusted to them. And though some, or many of them have not believed God’s promises, especially concerning their Messias; this hath not hindered God from being faithful to his word, in sending the Messias, and those blessings that were promised with him. For God is always true, or faithful in his promises, and therefore must needs be justified, or found just, when his proceedings are judged, that is, considered and examined. (Witham)”

Here is from a more modern Catholic Commentary as well:
“Rom 3:1-31 III 1-2. A Fourth Objection— If the Law and Circumcision cannot save Israel what then remains of Israel’s so highly-praised privileges? Paul’s reply begins as if he intended to answer with a long description of Israel’s privileged position as in 9:4. In fact, however, he does not get beyond the first. point, that she has been entrusted with the Scriptures. 2. ‘The words of God’: can mean (1) the whole OT; (2) the Messianic promises in the OT, because Of v 3.”

You must understand the context and the argument flow St. Paul is making to understand what he means in explaining Israel’s favored position. He is certainly not contradicting his other divinely inspired and inerrant writings that state that the Jews need to have faith in Christ for salvation.

The Church has been teaching this truth for 2000 years. Do you believe that Jews are our allies concerning the gospel? Do you seriously believe that they are helping spread the gospel of Christ and are leading people into his Catholic Church by teaching that Jesus Christ was just a man and that his followers made up everything about him and that our Christian religion is a lie? Yes, they are our enemies for the sake of the gospel. Do you really need a pope to explain to you this simple reality? Yes, the language might seem offensive, but are not our Lord Jesus Christ’s words also offensive to the Jews? Again please read my earlier posts on Christ’s words to the Jews in calling them hypocrites, a den of vipers, stiff-necked, etc…

The Church does not need to explicitly repeat this verse in Scripture or any verse in Scripture in order for it to be authoritative or true. If a pope repeated that verse, would it then mean that the Church has accepted that Scripture and if not that this particular Scripture was not accepted by the Church? Such an idea would be most absurd and laughable to say the least. The Church has repeatedly taught that the Scriptures are the inspired and inerrant Word of God and has said that the way to interpret them is in accord with the witness of the Church fathers (aka apostolic Tradition). If you want to correctly understand this verse, that is already clear as day, read the early Church fathers and see how they interpreted it.

I may have misunderstood you. If so, I apologize, and thank you for clarifying. If you don’t see the two passages as contradictory, we are likely much closer to agreement than I thought. Thanks again.

 

[diggerdomer]

T

That verse is not saying that Jews who reject Christ are still somehow united to the Church,

I’m not aware that anyone on this thread has suggested that, although all people are somewhat of course united with God vis a vis the Creator/creature relationship (whether individuals acknowledge it or not).