Is it heretical to pray that Jews continue to follow the Old Covenant?

[Shin]

Yes I am serious.

You know there was a big news article the other day showing racial breakdown throughout the country with little dots…

All those people throughout the U.S.A. decided where they wanted to live on their own. And guess how the map comes out? Big clusters, all based on race and ethnicity.

Upstate NY for example…

It’s rather amazing to see Popes requiring Jews to make up for not living up to Jewish law, basically… if they did so, the distinctions would always have been clear, and anything further unnecessary…

As to the reasons why the distinctions, the bulls and encyclicals make it clear they were basically motivated by simple religious reasons…

And when the Jews did have bulls enforcing further restrictions on them the reasons were often in fact problems caused by the Jews themselves… in fact… a lot of harm was done that way… conspiracies… political skullduggery… usury… outrageous loans and money manipulation… which the bulls cite, and are facts of history…

The Jews like gypsies were in a Christian state, there, yet not fully a part of it – and naturally when they did not live up to the laws of the state, and caused religious conflicts, they would more often come out on the poorer end… just like today, Christianity is knocked everywhere… in the press especially, but if anyone is anti- what are viewed as ‘Jewish interests’, he is ostracized and lucky if he can publish in any mainstream paper or appear in any news program. It doesn’t matter if it isn’t from any bad will at all, which all good thinking people condemn, but simple religious preference… or real criticism because of Jewish power blocks causing problems but not admitting it…

Honestly… Israel didn’t pop out of thin air… The politics behind it well… A lot of behind the scenes work. And not admitted… covered up. Wanting to have it both ways…

Always the victims… yet on top in so many places… Always innocently oppressed… always victims of powers… Never the oppressor or conspirators…

 

[chosen_people]

Yes I am serious.

You know there was a big news article the other day showing racial breakdown throughout the country with little dots…

All those people throughout the U.S.A. decided where they wanted to live on their own. And guess how the map comes out? Big clusters, all based on race and ethnicity.

Upstate NY for example…

It’s rather amazing to see Popes requiring Jews to make up for not living up to Jewish law, basically… if they did so, the distinctions would always have been clear, and anything further unnecessary…

As to the reasons why the distinctions, the bulls and encyclicals make it clear they were basically motivated by simple religious reasons…

And when the Jews did have bulls enforcing further restrictions on them the reasons were often in fact problems caused by the Jews themselves… in fact… a lot of harm was done that way… conspiracies… political skullduggery… usury… outrageous loans and money manipulation… which the bulls cite, and are facts of history…

The Jews like gypsies were in a Christian state, there, yet not fully a part of it – and naturally when they did not live up to the laws of the state, and caused religious conflicts, they would more often come out on the poorer end… just like today, Christianity is knocked everywhere… in the press especially, but if anyone is anti- what are viewed as ‘Jewish interests’, he is ostracized and lucky if he can publish in any mainstream paper or appear in any news program. It doesn’t matter if it isn’t from any bad will at all, which all good thinking people condemn, but simple religious preference… or real criticism because of Jewish power blocks causing problems but not admitting it…

Honestly… Israel didn’t pop out of thin air… The politics behind it well… A lot of behind the scenes work. And not admitted… covered up. Wanting to have it both ways…

Always the victims… yet on top in so many places… Always innocently oppressed… always victims of powers… Never the oppressor or conspirators…

Okay, so Popes and the Catholic Church persecuted Jews to help the Jews live up to Jewish law, which they didn’t believe in, as a service for the Jews:shrug:
Okay, the Popes and the Catholic Church persecuted Jews to protect Christianity from the Jews:shrug:
Okay, so the Jews brought the persecutions on themselves and the persecutions were justified:shrug:
Wait, the Jews got out of the ghettos and have gathered tremendous power and influence which they use against Christians:shrug:
Wait, the Jews play at being victims of persecution in order to increase their power and influence to increase their attacks on Christianity:shrug:
Did I sum up your post correctly?

 

[insalaco]

I did not use Youtube as the source of my material but the book by Professor Kertzer. You will also be able to find numerous references on the Internet, at your local University and no doubt if you ask your local priest. Kertzer talks of 1592 but I understand the demand for a full 5 generations free of Jewish blood was introduced in 1608.

To further understand the underlying attitudes of Catholic Spain and the Catholic Church toward Jews at that time, it should be noted that with the expulsion of the Jews in 1492, a series of laws, the estatutos de limpieza de sangre (statutes of blood purity) were promulgated. According to these laws, anyone with Jewish ancestry was excluded from occupying positions of prestige in Spanish society.

In 1547 the archbishop of Toledo issued a new law banning any Christian who was descended from Jews from receiving any form of assistance from the archdiocese. In 1555 the law was ratified by Pope Paul IV and served as a model for the Church throughout Spain. Candidates for admission to universities or the civil service had to submit genealogies to show that they were free from Jewish blood. Those found to have had a Jewish ancestor were denied the position and publicly humiliated. Various monastic and other Church religious orders similarly excluded descendants of Jews.

These things aren’t secrets and they are anti-Catholic propaganda. Are Papal edicts and Papal bulls not available to the Catholics? Are history books detailing the history of the Catholic Church and the Jews not available to Catholics? Do Catholics believe, for instance, that the Jews placed themselves in ghettos or that they made themselves wear special clothing marking them as Jews?

You are very obviously not interested in what happened, especially in Spain. Discussing Spain with no mention of the role of the monarchy is bizarre. Quite seriously, your understanding of history is seriously misguided. Previously, I gave you some examples which you chose to ignore.

But regardless of what happened in the past - you’re absolutely right. I guess we should pay no mention to the great strides that Catholics and Jews have made over the past 30 years or so. Let’s go back to hating each other. Great plan!

 

[una_fides]

Speaking of protestants - I haven’t read this whole thread either and I don’t intend to. But the genius who started this thread is a protestant. The word “Justification” is not Catholic speak… Its very protestant. Specifically, Martin Luther.

Read the Bible! Last time I checked, it was a Catholic book. I was quoting from Scripture. From your assessment, you would think St Paul was a protestant when he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit! For future reference, please do your homework before slinging insults and accusing people of being heretics. You should have been able to tell I’m Catholic by my signature line and more easily if you just would have read where it says religion next to each post. Next time please pick your fights with the enemy.

 

[chosen_people]

You are very obviously not interested in what happened, especially in Spain. Discussing Spain with no mention of the role of the monarchy is bizarre. Quite seriously, your understanding of history is seriously misguided. Previously, I gave you some examples which you chose to ignore.

But regardless of what happened in the past - you’re absolutely right. I guess we should pay no mention to the great strides that Catholics and Jews have made over the past 30 years or so. Let’s go back to hating each other. Great plan!

Well first I have to once again praise the patience shown me here. It was only when I began posting on this forum and discussing matters with Catholics who define themselves as traditional, that I realized that everything I had been taught concerning Jews, Judaism, Jewish law,Jewish history, Zionism and its history,Israel and its history,was totally misconceived and incorrect and apparently I know nothing of these subjects . So I won’t bore you with the reply that a) the monarchy is a relevant factor b)however so is the 1478 Papal Bull.

Secondly, the subject of the thread is not the Spanish Inquisition but whether it is heretical to pray that the Jews continue to follow their eternal covenant with God. I ,of course, cannot give a Catholic perspective but a Jewish one (if we can even speak of “Jews” (in a traditional Catholic context) as such as the “Jews of today are not the Jews of the time Jesus” and/or “have been replaced by Catholics” and/or “are actually descended from a Turkish tribe who converted to Judaism in the common era”.) However, even if “the Jews” of today are **not ** “the Jews” of Jesus’ time, from a traditional Catholic perspective, they will always bear collective responsibility and complicity in the death of the Christian messiah. Since the Jews did not accept Jesus they could not subsequently be absolved of their sin of Deicide. This is the basis for the racial purity laws and why the laws came into existence after the Jews had been expelled from Spain in 1492 and why they were in existence in the Jesuit order until 1946.

However, the relevance of the racial purity laws to our discussion is not in discussing anti-Jewish sentiment in the Church, but rather as an indicator of whether the Catholic Church, despite the good Friday prayer, really ever wanted and desired a mass conversion of Jews to Catholicism. The Catholic Church has never had real evangelical zeal toward the Jews in relation to other Christian sects. The Catholic mobs who began running through Jewish neighborhoods in Spain from March 15th 1391 led by the Archdeacon Ferdinand Martinez, shouted “Covert or Die” and did indeed manage to massacre thousands upon thousands of Jews. The moral justification for these acts of murder were the same moral justifications for the racial laws. However when tens of thousands of Jews began converting to Catholicism in the wake of these Catholic massacres, the result was not a sigh of relief and welcome but of suspicion and hate against these new converts which would lead to the Spanish Inquisition and the murder, conversion and expulsion of the entire 1000 year old Jewish community on the Iberian peninsula numbering some 400 thousand Jews. Lest we feel that the example of Spain is relevant only to that period we can look at the example of Theodor Kohn, a Jewish convert and respected Catholic scholar, who was made an Archbishop in 1892. Catholic public animosity toward the Archbishop as a converted Jew was so great that he was asked by the Vatican to resign in 1896. In a similar vein, those traditional Catholics opposed to the Righteous Gentile, Pope John XXIII Vatican II reforms, and those same groups who wanted to attack Pope John Paul II, did so by accusing them of having Jewish blood.

I would have also liked to discuss the theological aspects of the thread and in an earlier post I listed the various biblical passages which I believe relevant, again from a Jewish perspective. However, as we are on winter time and it is Sukkot and the stores will soon be closed until Friday morning, I will have to leave that discussion to another time.

 

[una_fides]

I never admitted I haven’t studied this matter - I merely said I haven’t read the thread.

You clearly implied that you had never undergone a lengthy study on the matter. If you would like to learn more about it before assuming your understanding of the new prayer to be correct, then I suggest skimming through the thread and finding the relevant quotes and citation that have been posted. They will assist you greatly. I also suggest doing your best to try to reconcile the old prayer with the new. I’d be interested to read what you come up with.

Good for you and the many people. You surely don’t need my (name removed by moderator)ut, right? I’m very wary about where I cast my pearls, especially when there is a recognizable predisposition to disregard – and quickly refute – all others’ comments that do not agree with your POV.

I was asking for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I am interested if you have any evidence that perhaps could have been missed or if you had any insights into how to reconcile the previous prayer with the new. It sounds like you are the one who has his mind made up and has nothing to learn. I have my own opinion that I’ve formulated from studying the original sources and what the Church has taught throughout the century. Without doing a lengthy study, you will not have an adequate understanding of what has been taught consistently and dogmatically in the past and how to interpret what is being taught now in light of that dogma. If you misunderstand certain foundational things such as the Church’s authority and infallibility and think that the Church can change her doctrines, then you would be correct that we should not have this conversation, since the discussion would turn to that matter first before we could move on to anything else.

Do you see the mindset that has already determined what I believe? And what should be done? Why would I burst your bubble and disappoint you by sharing my truth

To be honest, I don’t want “your truth” or anyone else’s “truth.” I want “the truth.” And we know that the Church is the pillar and foundation not of “a truth” or “someone’s truth” but the foundation of the truth. This Church has been teaching the same dogmas for 2000 years. Unfortunately, today many of the teachings are becoming blurred and are being taught in a vague manner so as to not offend the sensibilities of those outside. The problem is that many on the inside and outside are getting the wrong idea.

You are disingenuous with this comment and reinstating the thread, because you did not read it anew, but as a review, having posted the very same link here many months ago. This tells me you are deeply obsessed with this prayer and have a predilection against any who hold a view contrary to your own.

No, the Lord is not inspiring me to share anything further.

Wow. That’s crazy. I didn’t realize I had already read that article before, but then again it was over a year ago. I honestly thought I was sharing something new… lol. Oh well, if you don’t want to keep your “pearls” to yourself, that’s fine by me, but you do realize that most people reading these comments will likely conclude that you never really possessed any to begin with, but simply do not wish to engage in the discussion.

 

[una_fides]

I believe you are following this peron’s thinking in error. The Abrahamic Covenant made by God is an “unconditional” covenant, and it is eternal. Israel as a nation will be converted, forgiven, and restored (Romans 11:25–27).

Even though they have broken covenant with God, God’s promise is not altered or rendered inviolate. The covenant is still in tact. You may have read Ps. 89?

  	 				 29 Forever I will maintain my love for him; my covenant with him  stands firm. 30 I will establish his dynasty forever, his throne as the  days of the heavens. 31 If his descendants forsake my law, do not follow  my decrees, 32 If they fail to observe my statutes, do not keep my  commandments, 33 I will punish their crime with a rod and their guilt  with lashes. 34 But I will not take my love from him, nor will I betray  my bond of loyalty. 35I will not violate my covenant; the promise of my  lips I will not alter. 36 By my holiness I swore once for all: I will  never be false to David.

You are absolutely correct that the Abrahamic covenant is eternal, and you have to understand that it has been fulfilled in the New Covenant. There are not two separate and distinct covenants taking place. The Gentiles have been grafted in through the Abrahamic covenant, and the covenant has been fulfilled in Christ’s blood. The Jews now to participate in its fulfillment must accept its Messiah as their Lord.

Let’s also remember something very important that Jesus taught about himself as Messiah:
But he said to them: How say they that Christ is the son of David? And David himself saith in the book of Psalms: The Lord said to my Lord, sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thy enemies thy footstool. David then calleth him Lord. And how is he his son? And in the hearing of all the people, he said to his disciples: Beware of the scribes, who desire to walk in long robes and love salutations in the market place and the first chairs in the synagogues and the chief rooms at feasts: Who devour the houses of widows, feigning long prayer. These shall receive greater damnation. (Luke 20:41-47)
This is taken from the first gospel message preached at Pentecost from the first pope:
This Jesus hath God raised again, whereof all we are witnesses. Being exalted therefore by the right hand of God and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath poured forth this which you see and hear. For David ascended not into heaven; but he himself said: The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy enemies thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know most certainly that God hath made both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus, whom you have crucified. Now when they had heard these things, they had compunction in their heart and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles: What shall we do, men and brethren? But Peter said to them: Do penance: and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, whomsoever the Lord our God shall call. And with very many other words did he testify and exhort them, saying: Save yourselves from this perverse generation. They therefore that received his word were baptized: and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles and in the communication of the breaking of bread and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul. Many wonders also and signs were done by the apostles in Jerusalem: and there was great fervor in all. (Acts 2:32-43)
Continued in next post…

 

[una_fides]

Here is some more Scripture:
In saying before, Sacrifices, and oblations, and holocausts for sin thou wouldest not, neither are they pleasing to thee, which are offered according to the law. Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: He taketh away the first, that he may establish that which followeth. In the which will, we are sanctified by the oblation of the body of Jesus Christ once. And every priest indeed standeth daily ministering and often offering the same sacrifices which can never take away sins. But this man, offering one sacrifice for sins, for ever sitteth on the right hand of God, From henceforth expecting until his enemies be made his footstool. For by one oblation he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. And the Holy Ghost also doth testify this to us. For after that he said: And this is the testament which I will make unto them after those days, saith the Lord. I will give my laws in their hearts and on their minds will I write them: And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more. Now, where there is a remission of these, there is no more an oblation for sin. Having therefore, brethren, a confidence in the entering into the holies by the blood of Christ: (Hebrews 10:8-19)
From the lips of our Saviour, Jesus Christ:
Then the lord of the vineyard said: What shall I do? I will send my beloved son. It may be, when they see him, they will reverence him. Whom, when the husbandmen saw, they thought within themselves, saying: This is the heir. Let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. So casting him out of the vineyard, they killed him. What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do to them? He will come and will destroy these husbandmen and will give the vineyard to others. Which they hearing, said to him: God forbid. But he looking on them, said: What is this then that is written, The stone, which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be bruised: and upon whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And the chief priests and the scribes sought to lay hands on him the same hour: but they feared the people, for they knew that he spoke this parable to them. (Luke 20:13-19)
And again from St. Peter, the first pope writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
Unto whom coming, as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men but chosen and made honourable by God: Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious. And he that shall believe in him shall not be confounded. To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: And a stone of stumbling and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set. But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: Who in times past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy: but now have obtained mercy. (1 Peter 2:4-10)
And here is a message that St. Peter preached directly to the Jews, while filled with the Holy Spirit:
Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said to them: Ye princes of the people and ancients, hear. If we this day are examined concerning the good deed done to the infirm man, by what means he hath been made whole: Be it known to you all and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him, this man standeth here before you, whole. This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner.** Neither is there salvation in any other.** For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:8-12)
The Jews were the builders who rejected Christ, the cornerstone, which has become their stumbling block. As St. Peter clearly taught under inspiration of the Spirit, those who accept and have faith in the cornerstone, Christ, the Messiah, are now the chosen people of God, a kingly priesthood, in the new covenant in Christ’s blood. No one can find salvation in any other, as there is no other name whereby we must be saved.

 

[una_fides]

1. The Torah and the prophets make clear that God will always preserve a faithful remnant of the Jewish people and that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is permanent; Genesis 17:17;Leviticus 26:44,45;Deuteronomy 4:27;7:6-9;Isaiah 54:10,17;59:21;Jeremiah 46:27-28;Malachi 3:6
2. The commandments of the Torah are Eternal:
   Genesis 17:9-10;Exodus 31:16;Deuteronomy 11:1;Deuteronomy 28:46;Deuteronomy 29:28;Psalm 111:7-9;2 Kings 17:37;Ezekiel 37:24-25;Malachi 3:22

3)The Torah will be in effect in the Messianic Age:
Ezekiel 37:25;Isaiah 2:3

God’s Torah is perfect:
Psalm 19:8-10

The Laws of the Torah may not be increased or decreased:
Deuteronomy 4:2;Deuteronomy 13:1 [12:32 in Christian bibles]

Did you ever consider the possibility that God fulfilled his covenant with the Jews by sending them the Messiah?

The Jews no longer practice the sacrificial system that God established and said was to be done perpetually. They no longer follow the entire Mosaic law. The sacrificing of these animals without blemish pointed to the one perfect sacrifice made by Christ on the cross. He was the spotless lamb. The lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. He was the one whom the prophets foretold would come and take away sins (Isaiah) and would establish a new and everlasting covenant (Jeremiah). Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
How will their sins be forgiven? Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel [which means “God with us”].
Who a hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him: Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted. But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth. He was taken away from distress, and from judgment: who shall declare his generation? because he is cut off out of the land of the living: for the wickedness of my people have I struck him. And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth. And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a longlived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand. Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked: and he hath borne the sins of many, and hath prayed for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53:1-12)

Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:6-9)

 

[una_fides]

Well: because of unbelief they [the Jews] were broken off. But thou [Gentile believers in Christ] standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear. For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps also he spare not thee. See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou were cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, wert grafted into the good olive tree: how much more shall they that are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery (lest you should be wise in your own conceits) that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved, as it is written: There shall come out of Sion, he that shall deliver and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. And this is to them my covenant: when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are most dear for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. … O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and recompense shall be made him? For of him, and by him, and in him, are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen. (Romans 11:20-36).

 

[una_fides]

The Torah will be in effect in the Messianic Age:
Ezekiel 37:25;Isaiah 2:3

That’s not what those verses say. They make no mention of the Torah.

God will not change His mind:
Numbers 23:19-20;1 Samuel 15:29

These verses are not saying that God will not become man. It is saying that God does not lie or repent like man does. These verses are saying that these are qualities of men (to lie and repent), and God cannot do these things like men do.

What does the Christian wish to pray to God concerning the Jew?- that God will help the Jew to break his eternal covenant with God and thus be cut off forever from God and the Jewish people or does the Christian pray to God for God to break His eternal covenant with the Jew?

What if by following the old law rather than its fulfillment in Christ, the Jews were breaking their covenant with God? If God truly did send his son to die for their sins to fulfill their law and covenant, then they are missing out to an infinite extent. The Christian prays that the Jew be converted into the fullness of God’s truth and revelation in the Messiah, which he has sent them to take away their sins through faith in him. It is up to them to accept or reject their Messiah, Emmanuel.

 

[diggerdomer]

I realize this thread has not been visited in a while, but I was just reading a question with answer provided by apologist John Salza on the topic of this thread that I thought I would share:
scripturecatholic.xanga.com/703979316/13-what-do-you-think-about-the-new-good-friday-prayer/

I agree with his conclusion. The Novus Ordo version of the Good Friday prayer is vague and problematic at best and needs to be fixed and in the mean time rejected by the faithful on account of its ambiguity.

Umm…no. The liturgy of the Church does not need to be rejected by the faithful. Unless schism is desired.

 

[Sirach2]

Una Fides:

Wow. That’s crazy. I didn’t realize I had already read that article before, but then again it was over a year ago. I honestly thought I was sharing something new… lol. Oh well, if you don’t want to keep your “pearls” to yourself, that’s fine by me, but you do realize that most people reading these comments will likely conclude that you never really possessed any to begin with, but simply do not wish to engage in the discussion.

Whatever…you don’t me know well if you think I am concerned about what “most people” might conclude.

• Have you timed how many seconds it takes to make this prayer?
• If it bothers you, then don’t pray it. Simple. You can hold your breath that long.
• Since you attend the TLM, you will never need to pray it ANYHOW.
• That being the case, why does this concern you what form the OF prays? Unless you are trying to pit another Us versus THEM superiority.
• Assuming you are right, what can anyone who reads this do to change it? Zip. So why the fuss?

For this reason, I see no point in my expending a great deal of time to correct your magniloquent dissertation, only to have it shot down with several more pages of your interpretations. To quote from Nancy Sinatra’s song, “You’ve been messin’ where you shouldn’t have been a messin’.”

 

[una_fides]

Umm…no. The liturgy of the Church does not need to be rejected by the faithful. Unless schism is desired.

I thought you said you were unsubscribing to this thread… Please show me where I said the Church’s liturgy should be rejected. I said that this one prayer needs to be on account of its vague and misleading content. There are people on this thread who think that it’s saying that the Jews should continue to follow Judiasm and not convert. And on the same account do you firmly believe in the content from the Church’s 1962 liturgy and for over 1500 years before? I ask you and any other Catholic reading this, Can you faithfully pray the previous version of this prayer? If not, then what changed, and why not? Can you pray one and then follow it by the other without any disconnect in your thinking?

 

[una_fides]

Whatever…you don’t me know well if you think I am concerned about what “most people” might conclude.

• Have you timed how many seconds it takes to make this prayer?
• If it bothers you, then don’t pray it. Simple. You can hold your breath that long.
• Since you attend the TLM, you will never need to pray it ANYHOW.
• That being the case, why does this concern you what form the OF prays? Unless you are trying to pit another Us versus THEM superiority.
• Assuming you are right, what can anyone who reads this do to change it? Zip. So why the fuss?

For this reason, I see no point in my expending a great deal of time to correct your magniloquent dissertation, only to have it shot down with several more pages of your interpretations. To quote from Nancy Sinatra’s song, “You’ve been messin’ where you shouldn’t have been a messin’.”

The problem with this prayer as I have pointed out is that it leads many people, like you, to conclude that the Church is praying for Jews to continue to follow the old covenant, which would be essentially praying that they do not convert, and this also leads people to conclude that they have a separate salvific covenant apart from Christ and his new covenant.

The faithful do have the ability to move the hierarchy of the Church to fix this problem, just as it was through protests from the faithful that the adult catechism section on the Jews was revised. If enough people speak up and point out the problematic nature of this prayer then hopefully it will be fixed. Letters should be written to those influential and to the pope who has the ability to make revisions. If enough intelligent and convincing letters are received we at the minimum can bring the vague nature of the prayer and the theological pitfalls it is producing to their attention, and hopefully something will happen!

 

[Sirach2]

The problem with this prayer as I have pointed out is that it leads many people, like you, to conclude that the Church is praying for Jews to continue to follow the old covenant, which would be essentially praying that they do not convert, and this also leads people to conclude that they have a separate salvific covenant apart from Christ and his new covenant.

Wrong again. That is not my conclusion, but it seems to give you a lot of satisfaction to impute that notion to me.

The faithful do have the ability to move the hierarchy of the Church to fix this problem, just as it was through protests from the faithful that the adult catechism section on the Jews was revised. If enough people speak up and point out the problematic nature of this prayer then hopefully it will be fixed.

So that is your motivation here … say it loud enough and often enough to plant a seed of insurrection.

If the Pope believed it was best to “fix it” he would have done so at the time the 1962 missal was “fixed.” Obviously, the Church understands the prayer in a manner different from your interpretation. As I discerned earlier, your beef is with the Church, so that is where I suggest you take your problem. Maybe someone in authority will take the time to point you to a proper understanding. A few posters on CAF are not going to effect the change you desire. Most likely, nothing will be done, other than to read this thread and agree or disagree with you.

 

[una_fides]

*]That being the case, why does this concern you what form the OF prays? Unless you are trying to pit another Us versus THEM superiority.

I intend nothing of the sort. Only a search for the truth and a desire that it be openly taught and not confused through vague wordings.

 

[Sirach2]

Una Fides:

The faithful do have the ability to move the hierarchy of the Church to fix this problem, just as it was through protests from the faithful that the adult catechism section on the Jews was revised.

It was not protests from the faithful, but protests from the Jews that prompted a rewording.

How about for starters, against my better judgment in continuing this discussion, reviewing the actual prayer ending.
Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption."
Then read Cardinal Kasper’s explanation of this.

The very fact that the Good Friday intercession in the Missal of 1970 — the one in the Ordinary Rite used in the overwhelming majority of cases —** is to remain fully in force** … indicates that the reformulated petition, which is used by a very small number of congregations, cannot represent a backward step, reversing the advances made in the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration *Nostra Aetate. *

The reformulated Good Friday prayer gives expression to this hope in a prayer of intercession directed to God. 6 Basically, with this prayer the Church is repeating the petition in the Lord’s Prayer: “Thy kingdom come” and the early Christian liturgical cry *“Maranatha”: *Such petitions for the coming of the Kingdom of God and for the realization of the mystery of salvation are not by nature a call to the Church to undertake missionary action to the Jews. Rather, they respect the whole depth of the Deus absconditus,of his election through grace, of the hardening and of his infinite mercy. So in this prayer the Church does not take it upon herself to orchestrate the realization of the unfathomable mystery. She cannot do so. Instead, she lays the *when *and the *how *entirely in God’s hands. God alone can bring about the Kingdom of God in which the whole of Israel is saved and eschatological peace is bestowed on the world.

NOTES:
6 The prayer has altered this text to the extent that it speaks of the entry of the Gentiles “into the Church”, which is not found in Paul. That has led some Jewish critics to draw the conclusion that it means the entry of Israel into the Church, which in turn is not stated in the prayer. In the sense of the Apostle Paul one should rather say that the salvation of the greater part of the Jews will indeed be mediated by Jesus Christ, but not by entry into the Church. At the end of days, when the Kingdom of God becomes a final reality, there will no longer be a visible Church. The point here is that at the end of days the one people of God, consisting of Jews and Gentiles who have become faithful, will once more be one and reconciled.

According to the Church, the prayer in the OF missal is to remain in force. Inciting the faithful to reject it is unconscionable.

Since this document is available with a bit of searching, I thought you may be interested. As for presenting a full-scale thesis on the Mind of the Church, I refer you to Scott Hahn’s website where he expounds the Abrahamic Covenant. I remind you of Jesus’ words, that He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. There is but ONE Covenant that God has sworn in oath to mankind, ultimately fulfilled in Christ, to which all, Jews and Gentiles alike, are included in His Plan of Salvation. It has not reached its eschatological conclusion.

One brief final point. I visited the Holy Land and prayed for understanding as to why Jesus specifically selected the Upper Room over the tomb of David as the site for the Last Supper. There is a great hidden mystery for those why have a heart to hear. Do some research on the “unconditional covenant” delivered by Nathan to David.

 

[WFS5801]

“Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption.”

Vague. “Fullness of redemption?” Does that mean the Jews are already “redeemed?” – and the prayer is only that their redemption become “more full?” So are Jews, who reject Jesus Christ, currently in a state of grace or not? (I know the answer to that, I’m just curious what you believe.)

As for Cardinal Kasper’s explanation, it’s as vague as the prayer. But I note that he’s not calling for the Church to “…undertake missionary action to the Jews.” So, apparently, he believes the Jews are already somehow saved “as are.” This despite the fact that St. Peter, speaking to the Jews on the day of Pentecost made it quite clear that the Jews of his day must convert and be baptized if they wished to be saved.

You wrote: “There is but ONE Covenant that God has sworn in oath to mankind, ultimately fulfilled in Christ, to which all, Jews and Gentiles alike, are included in His Plan of Salvation. It has not reached its eschatological conclusion.”

With all due respect to Scott Hahn, St. Paul has already clearly explained how the Abrahamic Covenant applied to both the Jews and Christians. God’s plan of salvation is that we all become one, that the Jews become Christians.

[16] To Abraham were the promises made and to his seed. He saith not, And to his seeds, as of many: but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [17] Now this I say, that the testament which was confirmed by God, the law which was made after four hundred and thirty years, doth not disannul, to make the promise of no effect. [18] For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise. But God gave it to Abraham by promise. [19] Why then was the law? It was set because of transgressions, until the seed should come, to whom he made the promise, being ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. [20] Now a mediator is not of one: but God is one.

[21] Was the law then against the promises of God? God forbid. For if there had been a law given which could give life, verily justice should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe. [23] But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.

[26] For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you be Christ’s, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3)

No amount of dancing around the obvious will make it any less obvious. Catholics do a great disservice to the Jewish people when they tell them (or imply to them) that they don’t need to become Christians to save their souls.

 

[Sirach2]

No amount of dancing around the obvious will make it any less obvious. Catholics do a great disservice to the Jewish people when they tell them (or imply to them) that they don’t need to become Christians to save their souls.

Did you read the link from the Cardinal, where he said we cannot sit on our laurels with regard to sharing the faith with the Jews? I knew there was a possibility of not understanding the Church, and what I presented was only a brief sketch, too long to go into the full details I learned many years ago in theology. As St. Paul lamented, when people are only ready for milk, it is impossible to pour forth instruction into their heads. And certainly, in this forum, with a few posts, it is impossible. It is discouraging that the little amount I did share is being rejected outright, which is the very reason I initially refused to submit any comments.

If you have no faith in the teaching of the Church, then I cannot help you. Every seed has its own timetable of coming to birth, and you just are not ready for this yet.

Better to follow Ps. 131 and rest in faith, trusting that God has not permitted the Church to teach error. “My heart is not proud, O LORD, my eyes are not haughty; I do not concern myself with great matters, things too sublime for me.”

Vague. “Fullness of redemption?” Does that mean the Jews are already “redeemed?” – and the prayer is only that their redemption become “more full?” So are Jews, who reject Jesus Christ, currently in a state of grace or not? (I know the answer to that, I’m just curious what you believe.)

I never said they ARE redeemed, nor does the Church. Read the document again, very carefully.

With all due respect to Scott Hahn, St. Paul has already clearly explained how the Abrahamic Covenant applied to both the Jews and Christians. God’s plan of salvation is that we all become one, that the Jews become Christians.

I have no problem with this. In fact, he talked again about the Covenant in “First Comes Love” early this week, so maybe you can find it on EWTN’s You-Tube. It was excellent, and well worth your while to view it. He explained that God initiated the Covenant with Abraham, unconditionally; confirmed it anew with Moses expanding it to the 12 tribes; renewed again with David, also unconditionally, expanding it to Kingdom, and culminating in Christ as Universal Kingdom of all men. In reality, it was essentially one covenant.

You may be confused by your understanding of what St. Paul means by “law.” It can be a source of misunderstanding.