Is it just me or is Traditional Catholicism (especially online) hijacked by a Pharisee spirit?

[jeannetherese]

Traditionalists who do reject authority are more prone to becoming scattered sheep on the wrong path. That is my main point.

More prone than whom? Than those who reject humanae vitae? Than those who attend services at protestant churches? Than those who are more likely to watch their kids play soccer than take them to Mass?
Please define your terms, then tell us what sort of data do you have which supports your contention?

 

[PrayForMe]

More prone than whom? Than those who reject humanae vitae? Than those who attend services at protestant churches? Than those who are more likely to watch their kids play soccer than take them to Mass?
Please define your terms, then tell us what sort of data do you have which supports your contention?

Those who attend Protestant services are outside the realm of the point I’m making because we all know Protestants reject the true Faith.

I am referring to Traditionalists in comparison to other Catholics, primarily. And I get the feeling that my comments are being taken out of context; namely, that people think I am saying all Traditionalists reject authority. Again I am only saying that there are some Traditionalists who DO reject Church authority in favor of their own opinions. That’s all.

 

[jeannetherese]

There are baptized Catholics out there attending Protestant services, but I was referring to the comparison you were making when you claimed that " Traditionalists who do reject authority are more prone to becoming scattered sheep on the wrong path. That is my main point."
I don’t think that that point was backed up with any evidence; hence I asked about your comparison and your data sets. I’m still wondering to whom you are comparing those Traditionalists who do reject authority. Perhaps to non-Traditionalists who do reject authority? if so, then Catholics who attend protestant services, Catholics who reject Humanae Vitae, or Catholics who are more likely to watch their kids play soccer than take them to Mass might fall into the latter category for comparative research, but I’m still wondering where you are getting the statistics necessary to shore up the initial contention.

 

[Roguish]

I am finding it increasingly worrisome that Traditional Catholicism is being subsumed by a Pharisee spirit.

I am finding it increasingly worrisome that I suddenly see the terms “Pharisee spirit” and “Phariseeism” pop up in a number of threads and forums.

Is this the latest pejorative to brand anyone with that doesn’t conform to one’s own ideas of what Catholicism is or should be like? What is Phariseeism exactly, when the term is used in this way?

Btw, I’m not saying there’s nothing wrong with Traditional Catholicism. Frankly I don’t know and don’t particularly care cause I’m not joining them. I just wonder if it’s wise to label them (or others) “Pharisees”.

 

[I-47]

I actually felt and done the Phariseeism of the Trad Catholicism. Many things I done are based on itty bitty details and legalism, with (perhaps) very little love and mercy.

However from there I also learned the importance of Confession, Real Presence, and mortal sin. I’m still recovering from this Phariseeism, and I’ll pray to those who suffers the same, and pray for me also.

 

[Sarcelle]

No

I frequently encounter this attitude among self-identified Traditionalists that if you’re not attending TLM you’re attending is clown mass.
You personally may not exhibit this attitude but I have seen too many that do.

Sure there are Catholics that do deny the basics of the Faith but they are not being discussed here because they are not the topic of this thread.

 

[Sarcelle]

PrayForMe:

Traditionalists who do reject authority are more prone to becoming scattered sheep on the wrong path. That is my main point.

More prone than whom? Than those who reject humanae vitae? Than those who attend services at protestant churches? Than those who are more likely to watch their kids play soccer than take them to Mass?
Please define your terms, then tell us what sort of data do you have which supports your contention?

No.

They are more prone than those who do not reject legitimate Church authority, those who remain faithful to Church teaching be they those who attend TLM or NO.

 

[stpurl]

But that is not the case. “More prone” than whom, exactly? The people who agitate for women priests? The ones who support gay marriage? The ones who express lip service for themselves but ‘would not impose their views on others’ and so, in positions of authority, actively support laws which deny Christian teaching? The people who ‘take what they like and ignore what they don’t’ in Catholic doctrine? But it’s “traditionalists’ who are more likely to be scattered sheep?

I’m sorry but no matter how often or how loudly people say this, it still doesn’t make sense and I don’t believe it’s true.

 

[stpurl]

And again, I state there is a far greater number of “cafeteria Catholics’ and ‘progressives’ whose insubordination to Popes, priests, bishops, and Catholic teaching is far greater and more pervasive.

 

[stpurl]

They are not being discussed because the whole premise of the thread from the get-go has been the wrong assumption that Traditional Catholics are the only ones with Pharisee attitudes and insubordination.

Every time somebody tries to address that this whole ‘point’ is wrong, the goal posts get moved and there’s another ‘charge’ or a heel dragging, “yes it’s all the traddies’ fault:

Note to all: Time for work, lucky me. Back after 4 pm. Eastern.

 

[Sarcelle]

True but they are not the topic of the conversation here.

 

[pnewton]

This is a very sweeping judgement about people.

No, it is actually deliberately not sweeping. The language clearly refers to “a portion” then limits it even more by referencing “on-line”. As I said earlier, Pope Francis has address the same issue, even using the Pharisee reference. Perhaps instead of trying to shut down the conversation, recognize that some may need to hear this.

There was no finger pointed at anyone.

Let’s be kind to others, even when we might not like their personality.
if there is a sin - we have our own sins also, don’t we?

Exactly!

You have it backwards. It’s the NO Catholics that have the spirit of the pharasees. If a traditional Catholic raises any kind of question about Vatican II or the NO Mass. They get treated as though they’re a bigger heretic than protestants.

NO Catholics and NO Mass??? Propaganda much?

And again, I state there is a far greater number of “cafeteria Catholics’ and ‘progressives’ whose insubordination to Popes, priests, bishops, and Catholic teaching is far greater and more pervasive.

I think this is obviously true. However, again I point out that the OP limited who he was talking about. Even Pope Francis, when preaching to the choir, addressed the issues that the choir needed to hear. Most of the people here do not need to discuss the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, or the importance of prayer, thanks be to God. I found this sermon:

http://www.popefrancishomilies.com/rigid-christians

Those who believe that Christian life” must be taken so seriously” that they end by “confusing solidity and firmness with rigidity”. These “rigid Christians”, “think that to be a Christian it is necessary to wear mourning”, and always “ take everything seriously”, paying attention to formalities, just as the scribes and Pharisees did. These are Christians for whom “everything is serious.

 

[pnewton]

I would suggest that instead of taking the OP personally, unless of course you believe that you are that person, accept that this is a real perspective from a real person. It is also a perspective I occasionally. Think of how many times you have seen or heard people say they would not attend any Mass but the TLM. It is not common, but I have seen it. In this case, is it not a logical conclusion that the trappings of the Mass, the appearance, is more important that the reality of the Mass? I have seen recruitment here to the TLM, trying to get other Catholics to leave their Mass for it. Is there not some excessive elevation of the appearance over substance inherent in trying to get another to leave Jesus for Jesus?

I have prayed for proliferation of the TLM in the past for those that wanted it. There is nothing wrong with have such outward appearance elevate us to God, be it the solemnity, the simplicity, the language, or the music of the TLM or of even the most progressive Mass. However, it is important to remember that these things or only means. They mustn’t be confused with the end, which is Jesus.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

They are not being discussed because the whole premise of the thread from the get-go has been the wrong assumption that Traditional Catholics are the only ones with Pharisee attitudes and insubordination.

Yeah, this is the problem I have with the thread.

There are a lot of Catholics of all types and preferences who act this way. It’s not specific to tradititionalists or to any other subgroup.

Whole thread comes off like an extended trad bash. Muting it now.

 

[puer.dei]

They are not being discussed because the whole premise of the thread from the get-go has been the wrong assumption that Traditional Catholics are the only ones with Pharisee attitudes and insubordination.

Not true. Nowhere in the original post does it say “only” Traditional Catholics. Just as it does not say “all” Traditional Catholics.
A poster is allowed to have a particular focus for a thread. Just as you are perfectly free to start a thread about what you see as Pharisee attitudes and insubordination among non-Traditionalists. And you should be able to do that without others trying to derail the thread, as is happening with this one.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

While the OPs observations may be true, I’d say given the abundance of Catholics who disagree with the Church’s teachings on issues of such primacy like life and marriage, coupled with the fact that 75% of Catholics do not attend weekly Mass, the issue of whether or not some Trads (already a distinct minority in the Church) appear like Pharisees is so far down the list of serious concerns as to be silly to even worry about.

Find a way to get more than a quarter of baptized Catholics to attend Mass and believe in the Real Presence and then we can talk.

I should edit to say that if the OP experiences this, that is unfortunate. I have not. As more of a Trad who was raised under NO, I find awkwardness and distance created from non-Trad Catholics towards us when they hear about our homeschooling efforts, the TLM, and whatnot. Not arrogance or hostility, just an attitude of “you’re weird.” In either case, one should be looking for the good in the person and the faith approach rather than reasons to look down on them.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

Perhaps instead of trying to shut down the conversation, recognize that some may need to hear this.

Yes, that is true and a good correction - accepted.

 

[pnewton]

There are a lot of Catholics of all types and preferences who act this way. It’s not specific to tradititionalists or to any other subgroup.

We all have our temptations and sins, and different groups my be more prone to some. I note that no one is upset are claiming they are bashed because most Catholics do not attend Mass every Sunday, or how some progressive Catholics do not agree with Church teaching on a variety of subjects. So that does seem to be one difference. And lest on think Pope Francis has an axe to grind, let me post this part he also said, so that his axe can be seen to have two edges:

This temptation, present in the Church’s history in many different ways, has given life to various categories of “Christians without Christ”. The “light Christian”, who, “instead of loving the rock, loves beautiful words, beautiful words” and turns towards a “god of spray”, a “personal god”, with attitudes of superficiality and flimsiness”. This temptation still exists today: “superficial Christians who indeed believe in God”, but not in Jesus Christ, “the One who gives you a foundation”. Those who give into the temptation of a fluid Christianity are “the modern Gnostics”…

 

[Bill_B_NY]

I would suggest that instead of taking the OP personally, unless of course you believe that you are that person, accept that this is a real perspective from a real person.

Understood. But this real person is pointing to the moral flaws of others – our own fellow Catholics. There is a lot that can and should be said here, but people like myself have a fair number of complaints about other groups of Catholics. Should we open topics to complain about such groups? I can assure everyone, that I am not permitted to talk about the approved and common attitudes I see on CAF which are in need of correction also.

Think of how many times you have seen or heard people say they would not attend any Mass but the TLM. It is not common, but I have seen it. In this case, is it not a logical conclusion that the trappings of the Mass, the appearance, is more important that the reality of the Mass?

I think you’re mistaken here. You have missed an essential element of the Mass - the content of the prayers. Additionally, the liturgy has a shaping-effect not only on the congregation but on the priest. Is not a charismatic, rock-band style Mass quite different than Mass we see on EWTN? People have legitimate reasons for how they feel God is leading them. They can deeply believe that God does not want them to participate in a Mass that brings them to confusion. We cannot judge this - it may be true or not. If a person does not have access to a TLM and then skips Mass entirely on Sunday, that’s a different matter and needs to be addressed. We still have the obligation. It may require a very long drive for a TLM (I know people who drive over an hour one way each Sunday). People of old walked for 2 hours one way to get to the parish church. So, people can make a long drive for a TLM. Or they can find a parish that is closer to that style.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

I have seen recruitment here to the TLM, trying to get other Catholics to leave their Mass for it. Is there not some excessive elevation of the appearance over substance inherent in trying to get another to leave Jesus for Jesus?

It is not merely that we go and have Jesus present and that He comes to us. No - we must also offer Him fitting worship. That is our task. We want the best - not for ourselves, but for Him. For many of us, the TLM offers Him the best we have. It is serious and ordered. It speaks of His passion and death and brings us into a deeper awareness of our own frailty and dependency on Him. It is a time of silence and contemplation. Many OF parishes do not offer this kind of spiritual experience and it is a radically different approach. Jesus is the same, but we offer Him something completely different.

Most of us have no choice. There is no TLM. In obedience, we go to the local parish. We accept what is offered on our behalf by the priest and the leadership. We give our best - no matter what the Mass is like. That is admirable and a holy attitude. Many of us love the OF in our parish. That should not be demeaned. I think it is a sin to demean people for loving the Holy Mass in their parish. Many are new Catholics joining the Church - they embrace whatever Mass, whatever church building, whatever priest that God has given them. That is a beautiful thing. It should never be ridiculed or hated - as yes, some traditionalists do this and it is very wrong.

Those who go on an on about how the TLM is better and the OF is bad - are wrong to do that. In their essences, two valid liturgies cannot be compared with one better one worse. Because it is a philosophical principle: You cannot compare infinite entities. The Mass is an infinite entity. I mean, in its essence. But in it’s practice, we can prefer one to the other. The Church has permitted this.

However, it is important to remember that these things or only means. They mustn’t be confused with the end, which is Jesus.

But we require means to reach the end. To say that “it doesn’t matter what the means are, just focus on Jesus” is to say that the means are unnecessary. That’s kind of Protestant. We don’t need the Church or doctrine or liturgy - just go to Jesus. But the Catholic Faith gives us solid, good means of going towards Jesus and gaining greater union with Him. Personal prayer, spiritual reading, preaching, sacrifice and mortification, sharing the Faith with others, good works … all of these we can do - traditionalists or not. We can do them on our own or together. It could be the same (although reading modernists works or doing charity for pro-abortion causes, etc would not work).
But our liturgy is a communal prayer - binding us together and to God.
I believe you are right about an important factor:
“In the old days” - a Catholic could go to any Mass in any Church throughout the world and it was the same. Same language, same ritual. Now, however, it’s wildly and radically different We cannot expect people just to accept this without some major problem.