Is it just me?

[Brother_John]

It seems like 9 out of 10 threads on this forum either start out, or end up as, Catholic Church bashing. What is troubling about it is, that the majority of those griping about our Church aren’t Protestants,…it’s our OWN !

My church does this, my church does that, my priest does this, my priest does that…our congregation does this or that…lions and tigers and liturgical abuse, oh my !!

If so many of you are THAT unhappy with the Church (or church), then why do you hang around griping and whining and making it hard on everyone else?

It seems to me, that a lot of so-called Catholics on this forum are really Protestant at heart, given their endless barrage of complaints and misgivings regarding the Church, their parish, their priests, or their fellow members.

Why make yourself miserable? Our Catholic Church today, is what it is…as the old saying goes…Love it or Leave it !!

 

[LarryRay]

The first step in solving problems is admitting that the problems exist. The Catholic Church is currently in a crisis state. What is gained by ignoring that crisis and pretending that everything is just swell?

Beyond a vague understanding of a need for “more vocations,” most Catholics are perhaps unaware of the disaster facing the American priesthood. After skyrocketing from about 27,000 in 1930 to 58,000 in 1965, the number of priests in the United States dropped to 45,000 in 2002. By 2020, there will be about 31,000 priests–and only 15,000 will be under the age of 70, according to a study conducted by Dr. James R. Lothian of Fordham University.

The shortage of priests has created a problem previously unknown to modern Catholics: the priestless parish. Only 3 percent of the parishes in the US–a total of 549–were without a priest in 1965. In 2002 there were 2,928 priestless parishes, about 15 percent of all US parishes. By 2020, a quarter of all parishes, 4,656, will have no priest.

As one would expect, the priest dearth has been fueled by a collapse in the seminarian population. There were 16,300 seminarians in 1930 and 49,000 in 1965. By 2002 the number had plunged to 4,700: a 90 percent decrease. Without any students, countless seminaries across the country have been sold or shuttered. There were 596 seminaries in 1965, and only 200 in 2002.

And empty seminaries result in declining ordinations. While there were 1,575 ordinations to the priesthood in 1965, in 2002 there were 450, a decrease of 350 percent. Taking into account ordinations, deaths and departures, in 1965 there was a net gain of 725 priests. In 1998, there was a net loss of 810.

RELIGIOUS ORDERS DISAPPEARING

The tragedy of the convents has been perhaps even more startling. A host of 138,000 sisters ran the Catholic education and health systems in 1945; their numbers swelled to 180,000 by 1965. In 2002, there were 75,000 sisters, with an average age of 68. By 2020, the number of sisters will drop to 40,000–and of these, only 21,000 will be age 70 or under. One does not have to be Chicken Little to predict that within a generation there will be no nuns.

The same is true for the once-proud religious orders of men. For example, in 1965 there were 5,277 Jesuit priests and 3,559 seminarians; in 2000 there were 3,172 priests and 389 seminarians. There were 2,534 OFM Franciscan priests and 2,251 seminarians in 1965; in 2000 there were 1,492 priests and 60 seminarians. There were 2,434 Christian Brothers in 1965 and 912 seminarians; in 2000 there were 959 Brothers and 7 seminarians. It does not require special training in statistics to conclude that by 2050, if these trends continue, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, and the Christian Brothers, will be the virtually extinct in the US.

Other statistics on the life of the Catholic Church in America tell the same story. At the time of the Council there were 4.5 million students in US parochial schools; now there are 2 million. Before the Council there were less than 400 marriages annulled by Catholic diocesan tribunals in an average year; now there are 50,000. Before the Council 3 out of 4 Catholics attended Mass each week; now the figure is 1 in 4.

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=22821

 

[brotherhrolf]

John, what part of we had our roots yanked out from under us in 1968/69 am I failing to explain?. What part of we kept our mouths shut in submission to the Magesterium of HMC am I failing to explain?

See, it’s the I’m OK; You’re OK syndrome which started in the mid 70s when you where a teenager which embodied a sort of cultural relativism in which anything went - liturgical dancers wafting bowls of incense at my diocese’s 25th anniversary a la’ Cecille B. de MIlle. (I saw it with my own eyes - I sang in the choir). Banning a cathedral choir from singing in Latin - hey, we did learn some really spiffy anthemns and hymns from the Anglican church - because they were in English. Having an entire congegration - priests, deacons as well fall on their face because the Cardinal Archbishop of Lyons gave the Apostolic Blessing in Latin. What a pathetic response from the ten or so of us who knew how to respond.

If you find the discussions on this forum disturbing, maybe Liturgy and Sacraments would offer you opportunities. But please! We have just gotten the MP after 40 years. It’s not going to be adopted overnight nor do the majority of us wish to change your way of worship. But, do, have a little respect for us.

 

[Rawb]

This forum is for TRADITIONAL Catholicism, the TRADITIONAL spirituality and prayers and Mass, the TRADITIONS that were Catholicism up until the Seventies.

If you don’t like Traditional Catholicism, take your own advice and ‘get out’ of this forum. Frankly it seems you’ve done nothing but complain about how we complain ever since you got here.

How interesting that on your other thread you were espousing how HMC should ‘be inclusive, not exclusive, especially amongst our own’ (paraphrased) and now you’re telling us all to leave our Mother. Well I just got here, and I’m not leaving. Go become Pope and kick us out if you want, but until that day, ‘Brother’, you’re stuck with us.

 

[Brother_John]

This forum is for TRADITIONAL Catholicism, the TRADITIONAL spirituality and prayers and Mass, the TRADITIONS that were Catholicism up until the Seventies.

If you don’t like Traditional Catholicism, take your own advice and ‘get out’ of this forum. Frankly it seems you’ve done nothing but complain about how we complain ever since you got here.

How interesting that on your other thread you were espousing how HMC should ‘be inclusive, not exclusive, especially amongst our own’ (paraphrased) and now you’re telling us all to leave our Mother. Well I just got here, and I’m not leaving. Go become Pope and kick us out if you want, but until that day, ‘Brother’, you’re stuck with us.

First off, the term “Traditional” is subjective. So, what is the “official” cut-off point for discussion in this forum? I’ve been to Mass in English my entire life. So, for me, that is “traditional”. To someone born in the mid 70’s, a Communion rail is something they’ve never experienced. For someone born in the 80’s, Communion in the hand IS “tradition”

Perhaps for clarity, and for the benefit of the rest of us inadequate Catholics that don’t measure up to your “traditional” standards, this forum should be split into “Pre-Vatican II Catholicism” and “Post-Vatican II Catholicism”.

Far be it for me to intrude on your private Church-bashing forum.

Perhaps at this point, the more apt heading for this particular forum would be “Good Catholic, Bad Christian…a haven for retro-Catholics to sling arrows at today’s Church”

 

[Irish_Saints]

It seems like 9 out of 10 threads on this forum either start out, or end up as, Catholic Church bashing. What is troubling about it is, that the majority of those griping about our Church aren’t Protestants,…it’s our OWN !

My church does this, my church does that, my priest does this, my priest does that…our congregation does this or that…lions and tigers and liturgical abuse, oh my !!

If so many of you are THAT unhappy with the Church (or church), then why do you hang around griping and whining and making it hard on everyone else?

It seems to me, that a lot of so-called Catholics on this forum are really Protestant at heart, given their endless barrage of complaints and misgivings regarding the Church, their parish, their priests, or their fellow members.

Why make yourself miserable? Our Catholic Church today, is what it is…as the old saying goes…Love it or Leave it !!

First off, the term “Traditional” is subjective. So, what is the “official” cut-off point for discussion in this forum? I’ve been to Mass in English my entire life. So, for me, that is “traditional”. To someone born in the mid 70’s, a Communion rail is something they’ve never experienced. For someone born in the 80’s, Communion in the hand IS “tradition”

Perhaps for clarity, and for the benefit of the rest of us inadequate Catholics that don’t measure up to your “traditional” standards, this forum should be split into “Pre-Vatican II Catholicism” and “Post-Vatican II Catholicism”.

Far be it for me to intrude on your private Church-bashing forum.

Perhaps at this point, the more apt heading for this particular forum would be “Good Catholic, Bad Christian…a haven for retro-Catholics to sling arrows at today’s Church”

Wow.

Pot, meet kettle.
Kettle, this is Pot.

I’m sure you have a lot in common.

 

[Brother_John]

Wow.

Pot, meet kettle.
Kettle, this is Pot.

I’m sure you have a lot in common.

What is inconsistient or “pot calling kettle black” about either of these? I’m trying to understand why so many alleged Catholics on this forum expound so much energy criticizing the Church and those of us who embrace today’s Catholic Church?

What’s pot and kettle about that?

So much for “One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic”…

 

[pjn6444]

To what the OP said about some being Protestant at heart. You are quite mistaken. That is a very Catholic phenomenon. If a protestant does not like their church, they do not complain; they will leave. If you don’t like the pastor you find a new one, if you don’t like the church you find a new one, if you don’t like your denomination you find a new one. I am from a protestant background and am very familiar with this. Such as with my home church, a United Methodist church. About half of the parishoners did not like the pastor, so they got a pastor they did like and went across down and built a new church and installed their pastor. So, to reiterate the point. To complain about your church but not to leave it is a truly Catholic thing. I did not like the Methodist denomination, so I found a new one. Now that I am in the Catholic church, the thought of finding a new denomination does not cross my mind. I will tell you though the dissent is NOT new. People only feel more inclined to speak of their dissent now than in the past. I hope this gives you some insight as to the Protestant mentality, and why Catholics, even ones who dissent, do not have a Protestant mentality.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Retro-Catholic? Was my baptism in 1951 somehow made invalid in light of Vatican II? How about my service to my country from 1971-1974 when you were still in grade school? I guess that’s invalid too. Unless I miss my guess, those of us who were born in 1951 seriously outnumber those of you born in 1961 as boomers.

Let me tell you something John, I am not a retro-Catholic. I grew up with the Latin Mass. I grew up singing the hymns which you mock us for liking. I was an altar boy from 1960 to 1968 and, yes, I knelt and kissed the archbishop’s ring when I was senior altar boy at the dedication of my parish church. Retro-Catholic? No, sir. I have never stopped being anything but that which I am and that which I have been.

As I pointed out to you earlier, if this forum is giving you heartburn then you have many other forums which may not prove to be as stressful to you.

 

[Pious_Mat]

Is it just me…

Or does John do more complaining than the rest of us combined?

With all due respect, John, the people who call themselves traditionalists on this forum not only offer negative remarks, but positive sucess stories. Also, you’ll notice that the complaint trend is ubiquitous in all the forums. Some are even worse: go on the Sacred Scripture forum and watch words come to blows.

Also, nobody here is denying that Vatican 2 is a legitimate Council. It is the things done in the name of Vatican 2 that do not take part in the real vision of the Council that upset people. Also, people who criticize things around here often do so constructively, i.e., offer options as to how OF Mass can be celebrated reverently without clowns and dancers.

Also, we cannot fix what we do not acknowledge. Popes JP2 And Benedict 16 have both acknowledged many problems, and are problems, and worked (and are working) quietly to fix them. These problems are often easier to fix one by one, one parish at a time, so the Holy Father needs our help to stop problems.

Moreover, you seem to be pronouncing judgement on the people in this forum: maybe we all go home and pray a dozen rosary, the LOTH, and talk openly and kindly with Protestants about our faith. You have no reason to believe we’ve driving a wedge between people.

Judge not lest ye be judged does not mean letting people get away with murder:

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0702btb.asp

This Forum gets a lot of flack, and sometimes I don’t know why. It’s a discussion forum. People argue both sides of issues that concern the Church. If we all say around and agreed about everything, we wouldn’t be Catholics, we’d be zombies. There’s nothing wrong with discussing reasons for and against communion in the hand. And even if we don’t agree with it, I’ll bet you my life savings that the majority of people on this forum will listen to the Magisterium even if we don’t agree with what was done. This is rather unjust criticism, John, especially from a fellow-Catholic who ought to know these things.

Your Brother in Christ,

Mat.

 

[Brother_John]

I will tell you though the dissent is NOT new. People only feel more inclined to speak of their dissent now than in the past.

AMEN ! I think of this every time I hear someone say “Priests just aren’t as (insert virtue here) as they used to be.”

Probably true, but then again…as more than one priest has expressed to me…Parishoners aren’t what they used to be either.

 

[latinmass]

AMEN ! I think of this every time I hear someone say “Priests just aren’t as (insert virtue here) as they used to be.”

Probably true, but then again…as more than one priest has expressed to me…Parishoners aren’t what they used to be either.

Priests and parishoners are not what they used to be, in large part due to V2. Post #2 on this thread begins to explain some of the problems that mushroomed since V2, there are many more if you research or just look at previous threads on this subject. Nice to have you aboard Brother John it is great when people are seeking answers, and there are many knowledgeable people here to answer any questions you have. Thanks for posting.

 

[Irish_Saints]

What is inconsistient or “pot calling kettle black” about either of these? I’m trying to understand why so many alleged Catholics on this forum expound so much energy criticizing the Church and those of us who embrace today’s Catholic Church?

What’s pot and kettle about that?

So much for “One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic”…

Well, seeing as how you asked real nice and all…

I’m a convert to Catholicism. Experientially, I know bupkis about pre-Vatican II this, and post-Vatican II that. However, as a student of history, I can read other’s experiences on both sides of the council. During the council I was busy doing things like potty training and learning to eat solid food. So I’m a little late to the game, as it were.

What I found (and still find) rather disconcerting is this enormous divide between the Church we long for and the one we too often find in many parishes. There is this “ideal” Church that we read about and would love to belong to, and then there’s “St. Joe Sixpack” where folks are either deader than proverbial doornails spiritually, or the clergy are in a contest to see who can “out-innovate” the next guy in outrageous behavior during the liturgy.

I’ve sadly witnessed such silliness as the “clown” Mass, the Mass on the beach with a surfboard as an altar, and the trendy new Mass with “fly girl” backup dancers in the aisles (replete with either the waving flag/banners or the twirly streamer-on-a-stick! Woohoo!) I’ve seen new parish sanctuaries designed so that they are an “in-the-round” configuration with the altar platform a “stage” of sorts in the center. I’ve seen practices take place in the Mass that are, in and of themselves, not contained in the rubricks and watched them “mutate” into abuses on a scale that would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago, much less 40 (how about the choreographed linking/raising of hands during the “Our Father”?)

The kicker for me, however, was walking into a Thursday night Mass at my old parish and discovering it was “Pentecost Revival” night (and yes, that’s what they called it in the Bulletin.) There was a Fender Amp stack and full drum rig set up within feet of the altar and the tabernacle. The bass guitar was tweaked so loud I felt it reverberating in my chest. People were strewn here and there like bits of straw in a gale wind, “laughing” uncontrollably, and the priest (who was on the raised platform or dais behind the altar) had some fellow laying hands on him and wiggling like a carp that just had high voltage applied to it. I was, needless to say, more than a little shocked at the sight.

So while I’m closer in age to you than to brotherhrolf, if I had to make a choice, I’m going to come down on the side of Latin Mass, altar rails, and smells-n-bells, rather than risk having my head explode every time I see some of the zaniness that passes as “catholic” these days.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Brother John,

I was born in 1965 By the time in was old enough to have To start have having real memories of the Mass the changes were in full bloom And we were given the Novus Ordo Missae ( new mass). that I recall did not just gradually make changes in the order of the mas but was more one sunday you came to church and was the Tridentine Mass the next it was the Novus Ordo Missae. In grew up in the Novus Ordo Missae just as you say you have. that has been norm for 30 plus years now. It does not make it the traditional Order of the Mass.

The first time i attended a Tridentine Mass boy what a culture Shock.
But I feel in love with it. I did not understand a single word spoken as outside of about 5 of 6 sentences I speck no Latin. I stood when those next to me stood in sat when they sat and knelt when they knelt. I left there in awe. Thinking to myself how and why did we let this be taken from us. Come to find out that those who told us we could not continue to celebrate the Old Rite had done so without the authority to do it. In an effect to start an correct this John Paul II decreed that with the Bishops permission we could Pope Benedict has now decreed that we need only ask our priest and if he knows the Rite he is free to offer Mass according to the 1962 Missal. ( Gloria in Excelsis Dio). Now with that said I personally That the main problem is not the TML vs the NO but the lack of reverence and observance to The big T and little t traditions that that made up the church prior to VII. Many people that had issues with some of the little t’s took VII as a order to do away with them. now I am not complaining but in my parish I see people walk past the Tabernacle and the Altar without so much as a glance let alone a bow or genuflection. I saw today a man dip the Host into the cup without so much as we don’t do that. I know that in some Rites of the Catholic Church that it is the norm to do so, but not in the Latin Rite.

I am not a male shovenist but it bothers me to have women removing and returning the Host to the Tabernacle. I can tell why its wrong just that it is.

Other things such as the the Friday fasts changes in the Lenten Fast. It is all to protestant, ( sorry could not think of a better way to phrase it) for me and others. It was and is to much change to quickly. I am ever some grateful to those on this forum as they have helped me discover a lot of our old customs from pre VII as well as understand that it was not the intent of the council to change the way we did things but to educate us on the Why we do things. in that light do you see why those on here get so up set not with the church but with the seeming errors that have grabbed hold that some refuse to see.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Yep, it’s just you…

 

[pjn6444]

On the mention of awful practices at mass. I have heard people say, “we are just trying to worship God” I have thought about this. Now OBJECTIVELY think, what would God want? Is somehow this the time God as waited for is this the generation God has been waiting for to implement the style of worship He likes. Is the style of worship He likes one that is thought up by people outside of the His church? Does He want it the way it is now and has been for less than half a century, or the way it had been for many centuries. I feel it is not about what I like or what you like. It is truly about what God wants. People have often tried to mold God to their liking. People have claimed that Jesus and the apostles were relativists, hippies, and even communists. Christ, is what he is. We can not revision history to our liking. Thankfully, God gave us free will to accept or reject Him. Perhaps a story will be useful.
Say that the President, or any figure that you should give respect, was coming. You decide to have a great celebration. For some reason you give the honored guest a seat where no one can see him. Then you decide to start it out with a song. A song that perhaps has nothing to do with your honored guest, and is likely about all of you who are coming to welcome him. Then out of honor you read excerpts from a book by him, or about him. Then you say a few word about the excerpts from the book, however you do not find it necesary to mention anything about the author. You decide to say how it really applies to something the author does not mention. Then you transition into the part with a nice feast for your honored guest. You sing many songs about yourselves and maybe make one mention about your honored guest. You take his sayings far out of context, and maybe misquote him. Then everyone goes up to kiss his ring or shake his hand depending on how you feel. But right before everyone shakes each others hands, and so on. Then people shuffle up to greet the guest, some in inappropriate attire, and most just shake his hand. Some still give him due respect and kiss his ring. Then they all shuffle back to their spots and quickly forget about the honored guest.

This is what I consider somehwat equivalent to a bad mass. Of course not everything has a good parallel. Consider the movie “The Godfather” if you have seen it. Would anyone go up to the Godfather and shake his hand. Absolutely not. It would be disrespectful. They would kiss his ring, praise him, and plead for a favor. So, why do people shake bishop’s hands instead of kissing their ring. Does their position not garner respect. Similarly reception of communion is like this. Reception on the tongue is like kissing the ring, and reception in the hand is like shaking hands. Does one consdier themself equal to the bishops , does one consider themsef equal to Christ?
All this has to do with who is in charge. Remember we are not apostles. The apostles are the clergy, the priests, the bishops, and the Pope. We are but the disciples. We do not have the power, wisdom, or the authority of the apostles. So we should stop acting like we do.

 

[brotherhrolf]

So while I’m closer in age to you than to brotherhrolf, if I had to make a choice, I’m going to come down on the side of Latin Mass, altar rails, and smells-n-bells, rather than risk having my head explode every time I see some of the zaniness that passes as “catholic” these days.

I’m not dead yet! I’m feeling better! Unfortunately, I too have seen the young ladies in diaphonous gowns wafting bowls of smoking incense down the main aisle of my cathedral. And, I’ve seen the 12’ tall banners with maypole ribbons being danced around for all the world as if they were in a Mardi Gras parade.

Forty years ago, one could go to any Catholic church on the face of the earth and be able to participate - in Latin. We get a lot of French tourists on the Mississippi River steamboats. They stand during the Consecration. Forty years ago, all of us would be kneeling.

 

[mary_bobo]

I’m not dead yet! I’m feeling better! Unfortunately, I too have seen the young ladies in diaphonous gowns wafting bowls of smoking incense down the main aisle of my cathedral. And, I’ve seen the 12’ tall banners with maypole ribbons being danced around for all the world as if they were in a Mardi Gras parade.

Forty years ago, one could go to any Catholic church on the face of the earth and be able to participate - in Latin. We get a lot of French tourists on the Mississippi River steamboats. They stand during the Consecration. Forty years ago, all of us would be kneeling.

Brotherhrolf,

Am I going to see this when I attend Mass at St. Louis Cathedral in N.O. in May? I am going down for my grandson’s wedding.

 

[i_have_no_names]

Does one consdier themself equal to the bishops , does one consider themsef equal to Christ?
All this has to do with who is in charge. Remember we are not apostles. The apostles are the clergy, the priests, the bishops, and the Pope. We are but the disciples. We do not have the power, wisdom, or the authority of the apostles. So we should stop acting like we do.

We obviously shouldn’t consider consider ourselves equal to Christ. But as for the clergy, priests, bishops, and pope… Forgive me if I’m wrong but I thought we were all sons and daughters of God, and therefore were all equal? I could be way off, but that’s just what I learned.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Brotherhrolf,

Am I going to see this when I attend Mass at St. Louis Cathedral in N.O. in May? I am going down for my grandson’s wedding.

No. Not by a long shot. St. Louis has a fine cathedral choir and the Masses are reverent. If you’re around on Sunday, Mary, you might want to check out St. Patrick’s on Camp St. - about a mile upriver from the cathedral. They have a TLM followed by a NO in Latin on Sunday - packed though. (Yeah, nobody wants a Latin Mass).