Is it just me?

[brotherhrolf]

We obviously shouldn’t consider consider ourselves equal to Christ. But as for the clergy, priests, bishops, and pope… Forgive me if I’m wrong but I thought we were all sons and daughters of God, and therefore were all equal? I could be way off, but that’s just what I learned.

There has always existed in HMC the concept of first amongst equals. We have different states in life and we are called to different vocations. The concept of all being equal is Protestant and one of the causes of the Reformation.

 

[Irish_Saints]

I’m not dead yet! I’m feeling better!

No disrespect was intended, brotherhrolf (and cool Monty Python reference, BTW! ) I was born in '64, just as VII was getting underway.

And incidently, thank you for your service to our country. It is greatly appreciated! http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/images/smilies/salute.gif

 

[Brother_John]

I’m not dead yet! I’m feeling better! Unfortunately, I too have seen the young ladies in diaphonous gowns wafting bowls of smoking incense down the main aisle of my cathedral. And, I’ve seen the 12’ tall banners with maypole ribbons being danced around for all the world as if they were in a Mardi Gras parade.

Well, my parish is “more traditional” than that, to be sure!

But it also underscores my earlier comment that “T/tradition” is a relative term. Running up and down the aisles with streamers on poles makes me very nervous. Communion in the hand does not.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Well, my parish is “more traditional” than that, to be sure!

But it also underscores my earlier comment that “T/tradition” is a relative term. Running up and down the aisles with streamers on poles makes me very nervous. Communion in the hand does not.

My parish is far more traditional than that too. But every now and then as the cathedral parish we have to sponsor diocesan events in which I have, indeed, witnessed such things with my own two eyes as a member of the cathedral choir. We also don’t hold hands for the Lord’s Prayer. You can always tell when we have visitors to the cathedral - how out of place they look holding hands during a chanted Our Father and then they do “the wave”.

 

[Brother_John]

We do hold hands during the Our Father, through “For the kingdom…” and do shake hands at “sign of peace”.

But I have been in churches, even within the last few years, that do neither…but it really doesn’t bother me one way or the other.

Kind of like receiving Communion under both species…if I can, great, if not, it’s not an issue.

 

[brotherhrolf]

There is nothing in the rubrics which says hold hands during the Our Father. There is nothing in the rubrics which says an orans position is acceptable. There is certainly nothing in the rubrics which says to do the wave at the completion of the Our Father. All of this is accretions which people believe are normative. They are not.

Sign of peace - throughout the 70s the norm was simply to turn to one’s neighbor and bow one’s head and say “Peace be with You”. Nowhere did the rubrics say that the priest should come down off the altar and make a transit of all the aisles of the church or that people should cross the aisles to greet others or any of the other things that go on today. A reverent “Peace be with you” has become commotion and noise which adversely effect the sanctity of the Mass. Not to mention the fact that in most parishes the same thing is done as a greeting rite. Hello! I’m there to worship the most high not fellowship. (And from a traditional point of view, these are very, very protestant in nature).

 

[pjn6444]

In response to the poster’s question of aren’t we all equal. The answer yes and no. We are all equal in dignity. Not in role. The Bishop of Rome is not equal to all the other bishops. He is as Peter to the Apostles. He is the first. This thing of everyone being equal is a side effect of a quassi democracy. No everyone is not equal. We all are equal in common human dignity, but besdies that, no.

 

[Brother_John]

Nowhere did the rubrics say that the priest should come down off the altar and make a transit of all the aisles of the church or that people should cross the aisles to greet others or any of the other things that go on today. A reverent “Peace be with you” has become commotion and noise which adversely effect the sanctity of the Mass.

Yep…some get carried away with it…I personally don’t care for the spousal kissing either…our priests don’t come down off the altar…and their starting the “Lamb of God” pretty much ends it, and snaps us back into the Mass.

 

[catharina]

It seems like 9 out of 10 threads on this forum either start out, or end up as, Catholic Church bashing. What is troubling about it is, that the majority of those griping about our Church aren’t Protestants,…it’s our OWN !

My church does this, my church does that, my priest does this, my priest does that…our congregation does this or that…lions and tigers and liturgical abuse, oh my !!

If so many of you are THAT unhappy with the Church (or church), then why do you hang around griping and whining and making it hard on everyone else?

It seems to me, that a lot of so-called Catholics on this forum are really Protestant at heart, given their endless barrage of complaints and misgivings regarding the Church, their parish, their priests, or their fellow members.

Why make yourself miserable? Our Catholic Church today, is what it is…as the old saying goes…Love it or Leave it !!

John, I’ll agree that the Traditional Forum was a great surprise to me also. I disagree about the numbers you stated (9 out of 10? NOPE.) but I do know that I’ve seen statements that have truly shocked me. Examples, from the sublime to the ridiculous: those who criticize recent Popes attempting, according to their own judgments, to make the Popes out to be public sinners (horrifying); those who suggest that Marcel Levebvre was treated unjustly (huh?); to those who would mandate my wearing dresses and hats to Mass - if they had the power to do so.

All in all, I just don’t get it. The level of animosity has astounded me. Still, I also recognize that I’m just as free to state my own beliefs and opinions and I do so. I’m grateful for that.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Catharina: The Lefebrists or sedevacantists are another story. I am neither.

And please, I see people complaining about women not in dresses or without veils or hats, but as I have pointed out time after time such was not the case immediately before Vatican II.

I am trying to make the case for those of us who were teenagers when Vatican II was implemented. I am making the case that most of us submitted to the magesterium of HMC even though we did not agree with what was going on about us. I am making the case that there are significant numbers of baby boomers still alive who would like to see reverence return to the Mass - not necessarily the TLM.

The level of animostity coming from you younger folk astounds me. The Holy Father has issued the MP. Do you not submit to the magesterium of HMC or the Holy Father?

 

[Walking_Home]

AMEN ! I think of this every time I hear someone say “Priests just aren’t as (insert virtue here) as they used to be.”

Probably true, but then again…as more than one priest has expressed to me…Parishoners aren’t what they used to be either.

---

Yup— many a priest–parishioner --nun and brother is more in tune with the “Spirit of Vat II”.

 

[catharina]

Catharina: The Lefebrists or sedevacantists are another story. I am neither.

And please, I see people complaining about women not in dresses or without veils or hats, but as I have pointed out time after time such was not the case immediately before Vatican II.

I am trying to make the case for those of us who were teenagers when Vatican II was implemented. I am making the case that most of us submitted to the magesterium of HMC even though we did not agree with what was going on about us. I am making the case that there are significant numbers of baby boomers still alive who would like to see reverence return to the Mass - not necessarily the TLM.

The level of animostity coming from you younger folk astounds me. The Holy Father has issued the MP. Do you not submit to the magesterium of HMC or the Holy Father?

Do you often assume things?

I’m 62 years old. I lived with the Latin Mass all of my childhood and into my years of young adulthood. I have never stopped loving it nor have I ever disparged it. What on earth are you IMAGINING? I stand with the Church. The Church moved us into the NO Mass. Now it has approved the TLM for all. On both counts, I can say Deo gratias - although my personal preference is for the beauty of the Latin Mass. You have just demonstrated what tends to be so terribly wrong with this Forum: a whole lot of false assumptions.

PS - I’m older than ALL of the baby boomers, if it matters to you. (I guess it does.)

 

[brotherhrolf]

Do you often assume things?

I’m 62 years old. I lived with the Latin Mass all of my childhood and into my years of young adulthood. I have never stopped loving it nor have I ever disparged it. What on earth are you IMAGINING? I stand with the Church. The Church moved us into the NO Mass. Now it has approved the TLM for all. On both counts, I can say Deo gratias - although my personal preference is for the beauty of the Latin Mass. You have just demonstrated what tends to be so terribly wrong with this Forum: a whole lot of false assumptions.

PS - I’m older than ALL of the baby boomers, if it matters to you. (I guess it does.)

Your reply deeply saddens me. All you had to do was to acknowledge that you grew up before Vatican II and that you have never stopped loving the TLM nor disparaged it. What I am IMAGINING is the hope and belief that there are similar souls out there close to my age who did exactly what I and my parents did. Namely submit to the Magesterium of the Church. Can we say that people are submitting to the Magesterium of HMC church when they are actively fighting the MP published by the Holy Father?

If you want to continue on the way the last 40 years have been, who am I to tell you what to do? You want the abuses, you are certainly entitled to the abuses. But for all the rest of us who have had to “parish shop” over the last 40 years over issues of orthodoxy and submission to HMC, please do not presume to lecture me.

Oh, BTW at age 62 you are still classifed as a baby boomer in that you were born after WWII. I assumed ma’am because a) you asked about the Lefebrevists and b) your reference to mandating your wearing dresses and hats to church. Had you bothered to read carefully what I said and have said instead of making abrupt assumptions about what I was saying…Well, let’s just say let not the pot call the kettle black.

That’s twice today I have been falsely accused. I have absolutely no intention of advocating nor have I ever advocated an abrogation of the NO in favor of the TLM. I have always stated that I have submitted to the Magesterium of HMC. I was an altar boy from 1960 through 1968 and I have sung in a cathedral choir from 1983 to 2001.

The Holy Father (not me) promulgated the MP in September of last year. People just jump into this forum with a whole bunch of misconceptions and attitudes and presume that all of us are a bunch of liturgical neanderthals.

Please take to time to read what Cardinal Ratzinger had to say before he became the HF:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217964

 

[catharina]

John, I’ll agree that the Traditional Forum was a great surprise to me also. I disagree about the numbers you stated (9 out of 10? NOPE.) but I do know that I’ve seen statements that have truly shocked me. Examples, from the sublime to the ridiculous: those who criticize recent Popes attempting, according to their own judgments, to make the Popes out to be public sinners (horrifying); those who suggest that Marcel Levebvre was treated unjustly (huh?); to those who would mandate my wearing dresses and hats to Mass - if they had the power to do so.

All in all, I just don’t get it. The level of animosity has astounded me. Still, I also recognize that I’m just as free to state my own beliefs and opinions and I do so. I’m grateful for that.

Must add to my own original post: AGAIN I’m astonished that I’ve been accused of animosity for calling attention to the denigrating animosity that pops up so unexpectedly in this forum. brotherrolf has decided to object to my (unknown) opinions by calculating that I must be one of the younger posters. His “guessing” opinion is in error and is completely absurd but it’s a classic example of what passes for thinking in this forum.

 

[catharina]

Your reply deeply saddens me. All you had to do was to acknowledge that you grew up before Vatican II and that you have never stopped loving the TLM nor disparaged it. What I am IMAGINING is the hope and belief that there are similar souls out there close to my age who did exactly what I and my parents did. Namely submit to the Magesterium of the Church. Can we say that people are submitting to the Magesterium of HMC church when they are actively fighting the MP published by the Holy Father?

Personally, I know of NONE.

If you want to continue on the way the last 40 years have been, who am I to tell you what to do? You want the abuses, you are certainly entitled to the abuses. But for all the rest of us who have had to “parish shop” over the last 40 years over issues of orthodoxy and submission to HMC, please do not presume to lecture me.

**So you dare first, to judge me and second, you continue to do so. **

Oh, BTW at age 62 you are still classifed as a baby boomer in that you were born after WWII. I assumed ma’am because a) you asked about the Lefebrevists and b) your reference to mandating your wearing dresses and hats to church. Had you bothered to read carefully what I said and have said instead of making abrupt assumptions about what I was saying…Well, let’s just say let not the pot call the kettle black.

**I’m quite clear about what you said. You said I’m one of those “young people” and still you say it. Amend your ways. **I was born in 1945. Boomers entered the world on or after Jan 1947. Your math is as erroneous as your "corrections."

That’s twice today I have been falsely accused.

Perhaps if you cease falsely accusing others, your problem will vanish.

I have absolutely no intention of advocating nor have I ever advocated an abrogation of the NO in favor of the TLM. I have always stated that I have submitted to the Magesterium of HMC. I was an altar boy from 1960 through 1968 and I have sung in a cathedral choir from 1983 to 2001.

The Holy Father (not me) promulgated the MP in September of last year. People just jump into this forum with a whole bunch of misconceptions and attitudes and presume that all of us are a bunch of liturgical neanderthals.

Please take to time to read what Cardinal Ratzinger had to say before he became the HF:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=217964

**I am FAR more interested in what Pope Benedict XVI says since the former Cardinqal Ratzinger has now been allowed full inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the chair of Peter. I would suggest the same to you but clearly, you are according to you, without fault or need for instruction. **

 

[brotherhrolf]

What do you want Catharina? Mea culpas? Me to fall upon my sword because I had the temerity to think you might be a young poster? If so, I do most humbly apologize. Rest assured that I will never again darken your posts. BTW when was the last time you jousted with humilite?

 

[catharina]

Your reply deeply saddens me. All you had to do was to acknowledge that you grew up before Vatican II and that you have never stopped loving the TLM nor disparaged it. What I am IMAGINING is the hope and belief that there are similar souls out there close to my age who did exactly what I and my parents did. Namely submit to the Magesterium of the Church.

I SADDENED you? So you continue to attack me?

Why would you EVER imagine that any stranger is opposed to the Latin Mass or the traditions of the Church? WHY? What is your problem that you would leap to such an assumption? Do you imagine that such an attitude as yours will win friends and followers to Tradition. What do your parents have to do with it? Surely you’re an adult by now. Do you understand that your knee-jerk tendency to attack is a large part of the problem that feeds divisiveness???

 

[catharina]

What do you want Catharina? Mea culpas? Me to fall upon my sword because I had the temerity to think you might be a young poster? If so, I do most humbly apologize. Rest assured that I will never again darken your posts. BTW when was the last time you jousted with humilite?

That you assume anything about another poster speaks to your mindset. “Old and wise” - but according to whom? I’ll certainly accept your apology although it is given with no humility or truth that I can perceive. I have never “jousted.” I’m a woman.

 

[Irish_Saints]

Okay both of you, play nice or I’ll take away your walkers!

I keed because I lahv!

Seriously, let’s just step back for a few minutes and allow cooler heads to prevail after we’ve calmed down a skosh.

And now, to distract you…I will juggle multi-colored dots! :juggle:

Ahhh…I feel calmer already…

 

[bpbasilphx]

liturgical dancers wafting bowls of incense at my diocese’s 25th anniversary a la’ Cecille B. de MIlle.

Are you not confusing the producer Cecil B. DeMille with the choreographer Agnes DeMille?