Is it just me?

[catharina]

Okay both of you, play nice or I’ll take away your walkers!

I keed because I lahv!

Seriously, let’s just step back for a few minutes and allow cooler heads to prevail after we’ve calmed down a skosh.

And now, to distract you…I will juggle multi-colored dots! :juggle:

Ahhh…I feel calmer already…

Irish, you win - and yes, I’m that too.
(The whole truth is we laugh or we cry!)

Now back to my original response to brotherJohn, before I was so rudely interrupted (as we Irish Americans say in jest) since it seems to have been caught in a muddle:

"John, I’ll agree that the Traditional Forum was a great surprise to me also. I disagree about the numbers you stated (9 out of 10? NOPE.) but I do know that I’ve seen statements that have truly shocked me. Examples, from the sublime to the ridiculous: those who criticize recent Popes attempting, according to their own judgments, to make the Popes out to be public sinners (horrifying); those who suggest that Marcel Levebvre was treated unjustly (huh?); to those who would mandate my wearing dresses and hats to Mass - if they had the power to do so.

All in all, I just don’t get it. The level of animosity has astounded me. Still, I also recognize that I’m just as free to state my own beliefs and opinions and I do so. I’m grateful for that."

 

[brotherhrolf]

Good Bishop, no. Cecille B as in the Ten Commandments…as in the scene with the Ethiopian dancers carrying bowls of incense. Agnes might have had something to do with the maypoles. Somehow I don’t think such things would be seen in any liturgy conducted by our Orthodox brethren.

And no, I am not making this up. I had to pick my jaw off the floor in the choir.

 

[i_have_no_names]

In response to the poster’s question of aren’t we all equal. The answer yes and no. We are all equal in dignity. Not in role. The Bishop of Rome is not equal to all the other bishops. He is as Peter to the Apostles. He is the first. This thing of everyone being equal is a side effect of a quassi democracy. No everyone is not equal. We all are equal in common human dignity, but besdies that, no.

Ah, thanks.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Not to start another fight and a bit off topic But the baby boom generation includes all those born between 1945 to 1964. So sorry to have to be the one to let you know catharina you are a Baby boomer. But from what I have read and can gather from your post one of the better from that generation. I can understand you not wanting to claim being in it I find myself being thankful to have been born in 1965 Just missed it.

I would never dare to suppose to question the integrity for either Pope John the XXIII or Pope Paul the VI. There were issue that need to be addressed so Pope John the XXIII called the council to address them. The 1960’s and early 1970’s were a time of upheaval throughout The world not just in the USA and I believe Pope Paul VI did what he did in the interest of making peace. I say this with no disrespect to him or the the Authority of the Holy See. As a Laymen I and just a small child at the time I do not know what pressure He must have been under from all parts of the Church from those screaming for change to those screaming to change nothing. I Believe that God lead him to do what needed to be at that time. We are now in another time and It looks as if the Holy Spirit is telling Pope Benedict XVI we need to back the train up a bit. Then again I could be completely wrong.

I would have fewer complaints with the N O we did not have people behaving like they were at a protestant church. I was brought up that when you entered the Church other than for prayers hymens and responses you keep your mouth shut. talking to one another was for before and after church. As a mater of fact one did not even get up to go to the rest room because up until about 7 years there was not one in the church.

 

[Brother_John]

I would have fewer complaints with the N O we did not have people behaving like they were at a protestant church. I was brought up that when you entered the Church other than for prayers hymens and responses you keep your mouth shut. talking to one another was for before and after church. As a mater of fact one did not even get up to go to the rest room because up until about 7 years there was not one in the church.

This is where I get confused over tabernacle placement. In all the churches I saw in my pre teen years, the tabernacle was in the very center of the back wall of the altar.

We were supposed to show respect/reverence for the PRESENCE of the Blessed Sacrement. Correct?

So, if we now move the tabernacle to an out-of-the-way place, does that not negate the PRESENCE to those in the pews, since is no longer visibly present?

Am I making any sense? Might this explain lack of quiet reverence in modern-built churches?

This is the same thing I tell my Protestant friends, as to why we are quiet and reverent in our churches, while they treat theirs as auditoriums.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

This is where I get confused over tabernacle placement. In all the churches I saw in my pre teen years, the tabernacle was in the very center of the back wall of the altar.

We were supposed to show respect/reverence for the PRESENCE of the Blessed Sacrament. Correct?

 

[brotherhrolf]

John, I cant speak but for me. I know that the tabernacle is reserved on the side right altar. I treat the altar as if the Eucharist was reserved upon it as it was when I was a kid. I genuflect in and getting out of the pew. Technically this is all I would have to do in the side chapel. My cathedral was renovated in 1965. One of the first.

They ripped out the choir loft and the organ…both restored in 1992 - loft and organ. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved on the right side altar - everyone still treats it as if front and center.

Whole bunch of folks here …We are regaining that which we lost. Slowly but surely. God bless the HF and the MP.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

John, I cant speak but for me. I know that the tabernacle is reserved on the side right altar. I treat the altar as if the Eucharist was reserved upon it as it was when I was a kid. I genuflect in and getting out of the pew. Technically this is all I would have to do in the side chapel. My cathedral was renovated in 1965. One of the first.

They ripped out the choir loft and the organ…both restored in 1992 - loft and organ. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved on the right side altar - everyone still treats it as if front and center.

Whole bunch of folks here …We are regaining that which we lost. Slowly but surely. God bless the HF and the MP.

Now I am not saying that we should have done this, but in my parish around 1979, 1980 we had a priest that wanted to have the Main High Alter removed and the 2 side Alters along with the communion rail. he wanted all the marble removed
Now this Church was Built in 1983 with additions over the years and is laid out as a cross. Then have pews to be rearranged into a semi circle around the working Alter. The members of the Parish raised so much noise that it made the papers and reached the Arch Bishop who is about 120 mile away. Thank God he put a stop to it.

 

[Brother_John]

John, I cant speak but for me. I know that the tabernacle is reserved on the side right altar. I treat the altar as if the Eucharist was reserved upon it as it was when I was a kid. I genuflect in and getting out of the pew. Technically this is all I would have to do in the side chapel. My cathedral was renovated in 1965. One of the first.

They ripped out the choir loft and the organ…both restored in 1992 - loft and organ. The Blessed Sacrament is reserved on the right side altar - everyone still treats it as if front and center.

Whole bunch of folks here …We are regaining that which we lost. Slowly but surely. God bless the HF and the MP.

Our church in Alabama had been restored/remodeled after a fire around 1970. In this church, the tabernacle was placed on the right side altar, next to the pulpit. The left side altar housed the Holy Oils. It was also where the baptistry and lectern were.

It always struck me as odd, that the lectern was on the left and the pulpit on the right. It is the only church I ever saw that way. I went back a couple of years ago to visit, and it’s still that way.

 

[brotherhrolf]

My cathedral was one of the first to be renovated after VII All of the altar marble was removed and replaced with polished granite. We did get a huge carved mahogony cross which is impressive to this day. The right altar facing the main altar became the repository of the Blessed Sacrament and there was a separate niche for the holy oils and holy water.

We continue to revert back to a cathedral as it was before Vatican II.

 

[catharina]

Not to start another fight and a bit off topic But the baby boom generation includes all those born between 1945 to 1964. So sorry to have to be the one to let you know catharina you are a Baby boomer. But from what I have read and can gather from your post one of the better from that generation. I can understand you not wanting to claim being in it I find myself being thankful to have been born in 1965 Just missed it.

I would never dare to suppose to question the integrity for either Pope John the XXIII or Pope Paul the VI. There were issue that need to be addressed so Pope John the XXIII called the council to address them. The 1960’s and early 1970’s were a time of upheaval throughout The world not just in the USA and I believe Pope Paul VI did what he did in the interest of making peace. I say this with no disrespect to him or the the Authority of the Holy See. As a Laymen I and just a small child at the time I do not know what pressure He must have been under from all parts of the Church from those screaming for change to those screaming to change nothing. I Believe that God lead him to do what needed to be at that time. We are now in another time and It looks as if the Holy Spirit is telling Pope Benedict XVI we need to back the train up a bit. Then again I could be completely wrong.

I would have fewer complaints with the N O we did not have people behaving like they were at a protestant church. I was brought up that when you entered the Church other than for prayers hymens and responses you keep your mouth shut. talking to one another was for before and after church. As a mater of fact one did not even get up to go to the rest room because up until about 7 years there was not one in the church.

Perish the thought that I would fight with anyone but sincerely, you are informing me of nothing regarding the boomers. The Baby Boom generation is based on number of births. The only disagreement is whether it began in 1946 oir 1947. It ended in 1964. The numbers were important to the housing market and to the building of schools and hospitals and such. I’m well aware that I (like my older siblings and cousins) was born during the "war years. A few cousins were born in the pre-war years. A raft of siblings and cousins were born in the post-war years. All of the latter (except the “baby cousins”) are Boomers. Can’t re-write history. (I’m one of 36 first cousins.) My father was released from Naval duty in the occupation of Japan in when I was four months old. I was born during the war years. Sorry if the facts offend you.

 

[hasikelee]

I don’t know, I disagree.

“bashing” seems pretty over done, IMO. Why can’t people vent, complain, question, tell stories, etc? Why is that “negative” or “bashing.”

If we all post messages with big smilies and say everything is perfect, then we’re not Catholic. Christ’s Church is here to help sinners on their way to heaven. It never claimed to be a perfect, spic and span organization that does everything perfectly.

How could anyone ever learn and grow if they didn’t debate?

 

[catharina]

I don’t know, I disagree.

“bashing” seems pretty over done, IMO. Why can’t people vent, complain, question, tell stories, etc? Why is that “negative” or “bashing.”

If we all post messages with big smilies and say everything is perfect, then we’re not Catholic. Christ’s Church is here to help sinners on their way to heaven. It never claimed to be a perfect, spic and span organization that does everything perfectly.

How could anyone ever learn and grow if they didn’t debate?

I wonder why it seems that some folks are so ready to “pounce” even without a single fact to justify their pouncing. What is it?

In many instances, debate is fine but this forum seems to breed attack dogs (pardon the violent analogy). No one’s attacking yet some MUST “defend” by attack. Too strange.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Perish the thought that I would fight with anyone but sincerely, you are informing me of nothing regarding the boomers. The Baby Boom generation is based on number of births. The only disagreement is whether it began in 1946 oir 1947. It ended in 1964. The numbers were important to the housing market and to the building of schools and hospitals and such. I’m well aware that I (like my older siblings and cousins) was born during the "war years. A few cousins were born in the pre-war years. A raft of siblings and cousins were born in the post-war years. All of the latter (except the “baby cousins”) are Boomers. Can’t re-write history. (I’m one of 36 first cousins.) My father was released from Naval duty in the occupation of Japan in when I was four months old. I was born during the war years. Sorry if the facts offend you.

You did not offend me and as I said I would not want to be counted as part of the boomers either. every thing I have ever read siting the beginning of this generation says 1946 but hey what do I know I was born after In 1965 so it really does not matter to me. Oh my Grandfather serviced in the Pacific was well During the war as well as did other members of my family served in Europe. not really sure what that has to do with the start of the baby boom,

FYI
US Census Press Releases:
In 2006, the oldest of the baby boomers, the generation born between 1946 and 1964, … .

According to the government your a boomer.

 

[catharina]

You did not offend me and as I said I would not want to be counted as part of the boomers either. every thing I have ever read siting the beginning of this generation says 1946 but hey what do I no i was born after In 1965 so it really does not matter to me. Oh my Grandfather serviced in the Pacific was well During the war as well as did other members of my family served in Europe. not really sure what that has to do with the start of the baby boom

Uhhhh, the men came home. Does that help make sense of it?

 

[Brother_John]

I don’t know, I disagree.

“bashing” seems pretty over done, IMO. Why can’t people vent, complain, question, tell stories, etc? Why is that “negative” or “bashing.”

If we all post messages with big smilies and say everything is perfect, then we’re not Catholic. Christ’s Church is here to help sinners on their way to heaven. It never claimed to be a perfect, spic and span organization that does everything perfectly.

How could anyone ever learn and grow if they didn’t debate?

I don’t want to pour gas on a fire that has somewhat died down over the course of the day…but that’s sort of where I’m coming from with so much of the criticism I’ve been reading.

Christ himself dined with prostitutes and tax collectors, much to the dismay of some.

Church is for the imperfect, the sinners, folks who are trying. Yet, often on this forum, and sometimes in my own parish, there are those who just go off on tirades as to how the Church is going to Hades in a handbasket.

I don’t go to church because I’m holy, I go because I need to be. I suspect that is true for many of us. And a lot of the complaints I read and hear aren’t neccessarily holy, but rather a tad self-righteous.

 

[hasikelee]

I wonder why it seems that some folks are so ready to “pounce” even without a single fact to justify their pouncing. What is it?

In many instances, debate is fine but this forum seems to breed attack dogs (pardon the violent analogy). No one’s attacking yet some MUST “defend” by attack. Too strange.

Well, I’m certainly not going to pretend that doesn’t happen, but I do have to say that we should consider personality differences, personal struggles and that we are on an internet forum before labeling a post as an attack.

I think I enjoy conflict more than the average user on this forum. I have only had a few instances where someone (IMO) attacked me or went berserk. I simply said good day and backed out of the discussion.

But, again, it is all perception. I perceive very few posts as offensive. I guess I remain detached, reading and observing, then musing aloud and going back to reading.

Obviously, to someone who is posting a topic and putting a heart on a sleeve, the instant replies, short and curt posts or hard hitting words might cause them emotional distress.

Thus, it is my hope that everyone who posts will take a moment to analyze the original poster. Age, topic, personal interest, level of knowledge, level of faith, etc can all help us make better posts. This is just common sense. If you are a sales person, you don’t say, “Sign here, turkey!” And yet some people only see truth when it bonks 'em over the head.

Edit: ya know, I also wanted to add that I don’t mean to chastize anyone on this post or preach to them. I myself have caused a few curt replies by a miscommunication. I know in my heart that I meant only good things, but then the poster showed me I had to refine and improve my writing skills. An internet media is always going to have a level of misunderstanding and hurt feelings.

 

[catharina]

Well, I’m certainly not going to pretend that doesn’t happen, but I do have to say that we should consider personality differences, personal struggles and that we are on an internet forum before labeling a post as an attack.

I think I enjoy conflict more than the average user on this forum. I have only had a few instances where someone (IMO) attacked me or went berserk. I simply said good day and backed out of the discussion.

But, again, it is all perception. I perceive very few posts as offensive. I guess I remain detached, reading and observing, then musing aloud and going back to reading.

Obviously, to someone who is posting a topic and putting a heart on a sleeve, the instant replies, short and curt posts or hard hitting words might cause them emotional distress.

Thus, it is my hope that everyone who posts will take a moment to analyze the original poster. Age, topic, personal interest, level of knowledge, level of faith, etc can all help us make better posts. This is just common sense. If you are a sales person, you don’t say, “Sign here, turkey!” And yet some people only see truth when it bonks 'em over the head.

I agree. All of us are free to check the personal profile of others. Many of us do list our ages, for example, and the posts we have contributed are also available for personal consideration. To be denigrated by assumption and then ridiculed for pointing out the falseness of the assumption? Wow. It seems to me it is far more likely to happen in this forum than in any other. Question for the consideration of all might be: when does assumption become straight and unjustified vilification of another? To be falsely accused on a Catholic forum (by another Catholic) is beyond the pale of ordinary expectations, in my opinion.

 

[hasikelee]

I agree. All of us are free to check the personal profile of others. Many of us do list our ages, for example, and the posts we have contributed are also available for personal consideration. To be denigrated by assumption and then ridiculed for pointing out the falseness of the assumption? Wow. It seems to me it is far more likely to happen in this forum than in any other. Question for the consideration of all might be: when does assumption become straight and unjustified vilification of another? To be falsely accused on a Catholic forum (by another Catholic) is beyond the pale of ordinary expectations, in my opinion.

I know I have seen posters respond to an original poster with lots of Catechism quotes, or “harsher” calls to penitence and following the teachings…when a quick peek at the user’s profile shows the OP is an atheist, or a Wiccan, or ____. Talk about missing the target!

Another thing I have learned the hard way in real life (but I’m glad I learned) is that some people have a very personally vested interest in certain topics. Over reaction, angry reactions or crazy reactions might not be just an evil or weird person on the computer. They might actually be someone who is hurting very much and responding out of hurt and unhealed trauma.

For example, I find that the most outspoken and plain crazy prochoice protestors are those who have suffered abortion. They are lashing out in anger and hate and unhappiness. No amount of reasoning or responding with anger will do anything.

Except my posts on school and marriage, I remain naive and inexperienced in most topics on this forum, so I have the ability to not be emotionally connected to such topics as divorce, infidelity, death of a child, abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality et al. But, everyone, let’s remember that someone might have a very close connection to a very traumatic issue.

 

[stmaria]

I wonder why it seems that some folks are so ready to “pounce” even without a single fact to justify their pouncing. What is it?

In many instances, debate is fine but this forum seems to breed attack dogs (pardon the violent analogy). No one’s attacking yet some MUST “defend” by attack. Too strange.

What better place to vent than here? Here I find comfort to know that I am not alone. It is a good feeling to know that there are other Catholics that have had enough with irreverence.5 years ago I would have been shocked to read what many say on this site about the Mass. But not anymore.
Catharina, maybe you are one of the lucky ones. Maybe your parish Church has never had a priest removed because of an improper relationship and maybe your Mass is reverent.
When my parish priest told the congregation that we would no longer genuflect before entering the pew, I knew that something wasn’t right. For years I accepted the cross above the altar without the body of Christ, I accepted the fact that there was no tabernacle in the sanctuary or anywhere in view, I accepted the church without any statues, I accepted the fact that that nothing around me looked Catholic.
I accepted the four altar girls, I accepted accepted 8 EMHC when none were needed, I accepted the silly homilies and the applause during Mass. But then I woke up.
I began to read about how the New Mass was created, how the *Constitution on the Liturgy *was ignored, how communion in the hand and EMHC actually started.
I am not talking about conspiracy theories. I am talking fact. I was shocked after reading The Rhine flows into the Tiber about how liberal bishops and theologians took over the council. Shocked to see how so many at the Council believed that the Virgin Mary was a threat to ecumenism and she should be marginalized. I felt ill after reading *Good-bye Good Men *about the homosexual seminaries. That book verified what I had been told in 1985 by a young man that left the seminary because of the homosexual agenda. He left the Church completely.
And let me say I am disappointed that Pope John Paul did nothing about it.Pope Benedict is trying to restore reverence in the Mass and he is finding strong resistance. Liberalism is a threat that he is fighting at every level. Catholics need a place to vent. What better place than here, in full view, where all the issues can be discussed.
By the way, I was born in 1950