Is it okay to not believe in certain non-doctrine teachings of the church? (evolution, abortion)

[santiagoamr]

One last reply. It is okay to believe anything or not believe in anything that does not conflict with the Dogmas of the Faith even if it is doctrine, because doctrine has changed and is changing what does not changes are the Dogmas.

 

[cena]

One last reply. It is okay to believe anything or not believe in anything that does not conflict with the Dogmas of the Faith even if it is doctrine, because doctrine has changed and is changing what does not changes are the Dogmas.

Doctrine evolves, but it cannot be okay to do something wrong (like it is not okay to commit abortion)

 

[grannymh]

Doctrine evolves, but it cannot be okay to do something wrong (like it is not okay to commit abortion)

The Catholic Church believes and accepts Divine Revelation. I sincerely doubt that God’s Divine Revelation needs evolving.

 

[Micosil]

Three of the most recent popes: John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis, made statements about how they support and agree with the Theory of Evolution.

Yet, there are still Catholics who would support the literal story of creation as told in the Genesis. So there are issues that it’s okay for a Catholic to believe what is contrary to the teachings of Church fathers and elders?

Now, the church also repeatedly stress that human life begins at conception.

As a Catholic, is it okay to believe that human life begins at some other stage? e.g., when twinning is no longer possible, quickening, or when brain waves are first detected?

The issue is, biologically speaking, that life begins at conception/fertilization is a scientific fact; you don’t even need the Catholic Church to tell you this. It’s not something related to religion, morality, ethics, or any political ideology. It’s what there is.

Books on biology and embryology are virtually unanimous on this.

From Campbell’s Biology, 8th edition, page 251:

The human life cycle begins when a haploid sperm from the father fuses with a haploid egg from the mother. This union of gametes, culminating in fusion of their nuclei, is called fertilization. The resulting fertilized egg, or zygote, is diploid because it contains two haploid sets of chromosomes bearing genes representing the maternal and paternal family lines.

From Kratz and Siegfried’s Biology for Dummies, 2nd edition, page 92:

Through sexual reproduction (see Figure 6-5), a sperm and an egg join together to create a new individual, returning the chromosome number to 46.

From Keith L. Moore’s The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition:

A zygote [fertilized egg] is the beginning of a new human being. Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete … unites with a female gamete or oocyte … to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.

From Carlson, Bruce M. Patten’s Foundations of Embryology, 6th edition:

The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.

From Robert George’s Embryo:

That is, in human reproduction, when sperm joins ovum, these two individual cells cease to be, and their union generates a new and distinct organism. This organism is a whole, though in the beginning developmentally immature, member of the human species. Readers need not take our word for this: They can consult any of the standard human-embryology texts, such as Moore and Persaud’s The Developing Human, Larsen’s Human Embryology, Carlson’s Human Embryology & Developmental Biology, and O’Rahilly and Mueller’s Human Embryology & Teratology.

And later,

Human embryos, whether they are formed by fertilization (natural or in vitro) or by successful somatic-cell nuclear transfer (SCNT — i.e., cloning), do have the internal resources and active disposition to develop themselves to the mature stage of a human organism, requiring only a suitable environment and nutrition. In fact, scientists distinguish embryos from other cells or clusters of cells precisely by their self-directed, integral functioning — their organismal behavior. Thus, human embryos are what the embryology textbooks say they are, namely, human organisms — living individuals of the human species — at the earliest developmental stage.

In conclusion, in the case of when life begins, it just so happens that natural science and the Catholic Church are in agreement – as was expected. As I have stated numerous times in other threads, truth cannot contradict truth.

 

[rossum]

The Catholic Church believes and accepts Divine Revelation. I sincerely doubt that God’s Divine Revelation needs evolving.

But the interpretation of that Revelation does change. Interpretations about slavery, geocentrism and usury have changed over time.

rossum

 

[grannymh]

I believe adam and eve symbolise a number of things.

That is correct. Symbolism can help us understand truths.

One of them is that humans were made in Gods image and that happiness is being obediant to God.

This is one of those wonderful things for humankind which is also a major truth in the Catholic Church. Being in the image of God means that we are actually able to be obedient to God so that we can share in His Divine Spiritual Life on earth and in heaven after bodily death. The key is being able to choose obedience.

The fall symbolises what happens when we choose to do our own will rather than his will.

Here we need to go beyond symbolism. Original Sin is a reality which shattered humanity’s friendship relationship with the Divine Creator.

It is NOT that he " punishes" you because you did something he doesnt like. That is a very primitive and human view of God. God is like a karate instructor. The instructor doesnt force you to take class. In fact YOU pay for classes because you WANT his instruction. God is the same way. We obey him for OUR happiness. Not for his happiness.

This is a good explanation. I add that the first human was already an expert in karate. Starting with the first real human, biblically known as Adam, it is easier to understand “obedience” between two extremely different levels, that is, between God the Creator and His human creatures.

I suggested that Adam was already a “karate expert” because the Catholic Church teaches that at the very beginning of human history, Adam was already in a friendship relationship with his Creator Instructor. The Catholic terminology is that Adam is in the State of Original Holiness and Justice. Nonetheless, being a creature, Adam did have to learn from the “Karate Instructor” the rules of obedience. And then, he freely had to choose obedience if he wanted to stay in the class.

God does not force you to do his will under threat of torture. Throughout the bible it is repeatedly said that God OFFERS us salvation. He OFFERS us fire or water. If we want happiness we must be open to God because he knows what things hinder happiness and what things advance it.

This is a good explanation of human intellective free will. Disobedience is possible because humans can make choices.

In the story about Adam and Eve, God promises humans that the shattered relationship, due to Adam’s chosen disobedience, will be repaired. John 3: 16-17.

Now adam and eve symbolise that if humanity were in harmony with God and nature the world would be a paradise.

We can start with the harmony with God; however, this harmony goes beyond the
world to joy eternal in heaven after bodily death. We need to return to the symbolism of instructor and student. Adam (student) is not on the same level as God (Instructor). Thus, someone on the same level as the Creator had to repair the broken relationship between humankind and the Creator. Thus, the necessity for the Divine Jesus Christ.

But when we asume control and we tell God to leave us then the automatic result of that is death and pain. But God does not lift a finger to send it. Its like a drug addict. He spurns reproof but then years later he ends up homeless in a gutter. Did God punish him? No. But if he would have listened to God in the first place and not picked up that needle he would have never had such a fate.

This is Catholic teaching from A to Z.

So in summation the story of adam and eve tell us our need to be humble and follow Gods instructions.

Please consider today’s problem. We are billions of people away from the time of Jesus Christ. St. Paul did not have a smart phone when he taught that Jesus Christ repaired humanity’s original relationship with the Creator. According to Catholic teachings, Jesus Christ is True God and True Man. Therefore, He is on the level of the Creator and He can also step into the shoes of humans.

It is the plural humans which is today’s basic problem. If we descended from some indiscriminate random breeding mixed population, how can we be certain that our shoes are the right ones to obtain salvation from God? Why should we have worry about being a descendant from a miscellaneous archaic fossil which does not have the creative power of making us in the image of God?

The Catholic Church relies on the common sense of the Creator Who invites us to eternal happiness.

Current humans face enough difficulties. God recognized that this would happen when humans “picked up that needle” and left the harmony of God. There could also be ideas that some humans (we have a good idea who these are) did not deserve salvation. The simple solution to human doubting was to guarantee that every human has the capability to have a sincere valid relationship with his Creator. That solution could only remain firm and unchangeable if all humans descended from the very first progenitor who is in the image of God. Adam did the wrong thing. The Catholic Church helps us deal with this through the seven sacraments, especially with the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

None of us stick a label on our forehead saying that we are truly in the image of God and thus we are eligible for the “salvation” which brings us eternal happiness. We absolutely know we are in the image of God because we are descended from the first person and his spouse who are created in that image.

Believing in two sole parents of all of us is a deal maker.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by grannymh forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
The Catholic Church believes and accepts Divine Revelation. I sincerely doubt that God’s Divine Revelation needs evolving.

But the interpretation of that Revelation does change. Interpretations about slavery, geocentrism and usury have changed over time.

rossum

Interpretations are a dime a dozen.

Surely you remember the miles of geocentrism posts when I first landed on CAF. At that time, there were three posters who understood and could post the basic protocol of the visible Catholic Church on earth in regard to duly defined and properly proclaimed Catholic doctrines. As the least knowledgeable of the three, I do not intend to derail this thread by responding to interpretations. Currently, I would consider those issues like strawmen and I will not derail this thread.

 

[rossum]

Surely you remember the miles of geocentrism posts when I first landed on CAF.

Ah, happy days … Thanks for the nostalgia buzz.

rossum