Is it possible for a Religious person to go full circle and become atheist

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You’ve offered two articles that don’t address recursion, its cognitive prerequisites or consequent abilities. I’m not ignoring animal intelligence; but inviting you to research something you may not be aware of.

Anyway this is going off-topic.
 
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Ah yes - but a man born blind has never gained his sight… (John 9)
Ah yes - but by now, there will be a stench… (John 11)
Ah yes - but Father Abraham! If someone goes to them from the dead, then they will believe… (Luke 16)
And your support for this being descriptions of actual events is?
Isn’t it strange how we also hear about such phenomena almost exclusively in relation to prayer, saints, etc…
This is simply not true.
As to your other post, I don’t even know what to say. You have to put in the effort on your own to build a base to start the discussion - I gave the link to the primary work of that alleged neanderthal St. Thomas and indicated the places to start looking. That’s a nice start - or try the Summa contra gentiles, it is an easier read.
Don’t just assume I haven’t read good parts of Summa, please. I am actually capable of devising solutions to problems like the lack of certain kind of information. It is just that, which I have already explained, I fail to see Thomas as an authority. For example, in this discussion the term “substance” came up and you referred to claims by Thomas. The problem is that nothing resembling “substance” has ever been verified to exist. Ever! This means that the concept does not describe nature as we know it and this becomes a major problem when substance is used as a de facto reality in teaching and discussions.
 
You’ve offered two articles that don’t address recursion, its cognitive prerequisites or consequent abilities. I’m not ignoring animal intelligence; but inviting you to research something you may not be aware of.

Anyway this is going off-topic.
I’m terribly sorry but English is not my first language so I have looked up the meaning of the term “recursion” but failed to see that I have misunderstood it in this context. Kindly explain my apparent misunderstanding.
 
Then you have the problem of lying (and that is glossing over the claim about authorship… which is problematic… see Bauckham’s excellent book on the topic). Why would people invent such a lie, go to their death propagating it in poverty, and how could their witness be so integrated and insightful, to the conversion of so many who could get the other side of the story so easily?
It is highly unlikely that uneducated people living on the countryside of Palestine would read and write Greek at that level. Just for starters.
And there are so many examples of people willing to die for all kinds of ideas not based on reality. So such willingness is hardly a good litmus test for truth. Regarding their poverty, they were poor to start with. So what would in reality change that under the circumstances they were living under?
Your a priori assumptions are utterly unhelpful, for what it’s worth… The whole point is that these things are abnormal. Otherwise, who cares? But excluding such things before considering the evidence is, well, silly.
From not normal to supernatural when no empirical data for anything but this universe exists, is not a logic leap.
Sheen tells a story of a friend who did an exorcism in Vietnam (I am friends with an exorcist…
Ahh, more anecdotes.
Fatima is also good, or Vianney, or Lourdes… all quite recent and well studied.
Even more anecdotes. Eyewitnesses who totally contradict each other and a few things that cannot be explained using current models of nature.
 
If you think science supports the idea of a three day old corpse being brought back to life, then I’ve got bad news for you. There are solutions to the problem, like a coma, but Christianity requires Christ’s physical death.
 
Hi Michaelangelo,

I’m sorry you are frustrated with my explanations. Here is my one attempt at answering your objections. I am happy to talk further by private message.
And your support for this being descriptions of actual events is?
The claims themselves. See below.
This is simply not true.
If you say so. Never heard of a consistent pattern anywhere else - but maybe I’m wrong. It wouldn’t be a fatal point; it would simply be interesting.
The problem is that nothing resembling “substance” has ever been verified to exist. Ever!
You could contend that the Categories are misguided (like any number of the great philosophers of Modernity would), but to say what you said probably means you don’t know what you are talking about (or you just assume that various Modern rejections of metaphysics are “obvious”). Substance is “that which is not predicated of another.” A man. A tree. A stone. These are substances. Do they exist? Or - to use your vocabulary - is there anything which at least “resembles” men, trees, stones, etc., which are not predicated of another? Is it at least somewhat plausible that this is a valid category? Are we in the same universe???
It is highly unlikely that uneducated people living on the countryside of Palestine would read and write Greek at that level. Just for starters.
Who said they would? Merchants would all have known Greek, though… if you were even half-educated, you knew Greek. Koine is not that hard anyway. But plenty of preaching was done without a text… It is possible to tell people about these things without having them read. So your point is not helpful.
And there are so many examples of people willing to die for all kinds of ideas not based on reality. So such willingness is hardly a good litmus test for truth. Regarding their poverty, they were poor to start with. So what would in reality change that under the circumstances they were living under?
The difference is between ideologues and witnesses. If I say, “Communism is worth dying for!” it is different than, “I saw a man come back from the dead who promised me eternal life if I tell people about him.” One is merely believed as a principle – the other is testified to as a thing which happened. As for poverty, Matthew was not poor. Several other apostles may not have been that poor (and surely many of the 70 were not). But the point is more to say that they were not looking for money… especially Paul. Of all the ways to construct conspiracy theories about the apostolic college, one must find a way to include the murderous and then miraculous Paul in the theory… good luck. The point is you must explain who is lying and why, or who is confused and how. That’s why the claim is good evidence in this context.
 
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From not normal to supernatural when no empirical data for anything but this universe exists, is not a logic leap.
Yes, fine… except some “not normal” things might indicate “supernatural” things.
Even more anecdotes. Eyewitnesses who totally contradict each other and a few things that cannot be explained using current models of nature.
Yes, anecdotes are pretty useful. It must also be useful for you to dismiss evidence simply because it is evidence. And I see you are appealing to Hume here – maybe without even knowing it. Trust me, that’s a bad plan. Hume on miracles… not good. Very bad. Would not Hume again. Doge says avoid.

I also see you are trying to appeal to “animal intelligence”… My old undergraduate advisor was (and still is) a big player in this field. I would recommend it is not as good an appeal as you think it is.

PM me to talk more.

-K
 
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Look, I can tell you are trying. But you are not thinking hard. You mean to say that 1st century people were stupid… especially regarding health. The resuscitations in the Gospels debunk that theory (of three levels of “certitude” about deadness - dead, really dead, already starting to decompose… the little girl, the son of the widow of Nain, and Lazarus) - or any of the healings of lepers - or blind men - etc. (which is why I offered to go through any specific miracle… it’s easy to avoid concrete conclusions as long as you push away particulars). The Ancient Near East was much, much more familiar with how death “works” than we are. They were surrounded by it constantly. (Why do you think John goes out of his way to mention - and make sure to let you know that he mentioned - blood AND water came from the side of Christ at the end of the Passion narrative? Because only DEAD people have water come from them like that.) You know when someone is dead… Especially Lazarus.

I’m happy to talk more by PM, but I won’t continue here… Too much noise.

Out…
-K
 
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Yes, the evil one goes about like a lion, looking for someone to devour. It can happen a little at a time to a person. Slowly their prayer life starts to diminish, then certain things begin to tempt the person to think “why not?”

We need prayer, sacraments and community to be strong in the faith!
 
I’ll end by saying i don’t think they were stupid. After all, plenty of people even now believe in things I don’t believe there is evidence for.
 
This deserves many of its own full discussions but from what I’ve seen so far every atheist who refuses to grant Aquinas any concession as to his insight into the human mind consistently proffers red herrings such as new scientific data about animal intelligence. This is not some quantitative zoological complexity, but a qualitative neurological difference between human and animal cognition. You can try starting with some Wikipedia articles (e.g. recursive languages and prefrontal synthesis) and click on the link to your first language if its available.

I’m reluctant to add, but I will, because I know you’ll be looking for a way to “defeat” this: You can try arguing that artificial intelligence is capable of this; but that’s still speculative at this point. What you cannot do is argue that any other animal has demonstrated such abilities: they have not, and from what we know and are learning about paleoneurology, the causal differences are becoming increasingly clear.
 
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To be honest, AI is more a marketing ploy. I guess my view is differences in degree. And really, there’s a lot of our own behaviors that happen “under the hood”.
 
I guess my view is differences in degree.
That is a kind of fallacy of division; an “evolution of the gaps”: because something evolved gradually, every part of it evolved gradually. When actually if we look at something like recursive speech and reasoning capacity, this is either present or it is not. There is no gradation. There was a point in time B when it was not at an immediately preceding point in time A. I guess this is difficult to accept.
 
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niceatheist:
I guess my view is differences in degree.
That is a kind of fallacy of division; an “evolution of the gaps”: because something evolved gradually, every part of it evolved gradually. When actually if we look at something like recursive speech and reasoning capacity, this is either present or it is not. There is no gradation. There was a point in time B when it was not at an immediately preceding point in time A. I guess this is difficult to accept.
You’re darn tootin’ it’s difficult. You want us to accept that on some given Monday someone was incapable of conversing using recursive speech and then on Tuesday she could. It must have surprised the living daylights out of her friends.

But do you think she had to teach everyone how to do it or did it happen to everyone at the same time?
 
Well then I give up. Eye witness testimony is no good.
It’s exceptionally bad as a means of determining exactly what happened. You can try this test if you like to see how accurate your perception is…

Let us know how you get on.
 
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But do you think she had to teach everyone how to do it or did it happen to everyone at the same time?
That is (and maybe will remain) an unsolved mystery. A hypothesis is that there was at least one other individual in the same place at the same time who had the necessary mutation in their prefrontal cortex.
 
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Freddy:
But do you think she had to teach everyone how to do it or did it happen to everyone at the same time?
That is (and maybe will remain) an unsolved mystery. A hypothesis is that there was at least one other individual in the same place at the same time who had the necessary mutation in their prefrontal cortex.
So you reckon that someone was born with a genetic mutation (both in the angular gyrus and Wernickes area - not the pre frontal cortex) that allowed them to immediately use recursive language and that there was another person born at that exact same time in exactly the same place with exactly the same mutation that allowed exactly the same ability.

Why? What purpose does having a second person with that ability serve? Other than you’d have someone who could understand exactly what you were talking about.

It’s a mutation that serves zero use in isolation. If you can see better or run faster then you personally have an evolutionary advantage. But if you are the only person on the planet that understands the concept of recursion then it’s no advantage at all. It would be like being the only person that could speak French. A complete waste of time if no-one else speaks it.

What you are proposing is bizarre to say the least.
 
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Well, we can start a new thread about this. There would certainly have been evolutionary advantages to the new recursive language and novel conceptual abilities enabled by prefrontal synthesis. It’s also not my theory or hypothesis, by the way; I’m not presenting some new and original research for my friends on the CAF. 🤓
 
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