Is it possible for a Religious person to go full circle and become atheist

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Well, we can start a new thread about this. There would certainly have been evolutionary advantages to the new recursive language and novel conceptual abilities enabled by prefrontal synthesis. It’s also not my theory or hypothesis, by the way; I’m not presenting some new and original research for my friends on the CAF. 🤓
There is an advantage. But it didn’t emerge over one generation. Let’s have a look at where you got this hypothesis can we? I think you may have misinterpreted it.
 
Btw “emergentism” for our rational faculties (I saw upthread) doesn’t work. It’s an old idea and I’d recommend looking up the late Jaegwon Kim for further details on how it fails as an attempted solution to the mind–body problem.
Is this the philosopher you are referring to? Quote from his wiki page…

“ In a 2008 interview with Korean daily newspaper Joongang Ilbo, Kim stated that we must seek a naturalistic explanation for mind because mind is a natural phenomenon, and supernatural explanation only provides “one riddle over another”.[8] He believes that any correct explanation for the nature of mind would come from natural science rather than philosophy or psychology.[8
 
Yes. I figured you would be more likely to believe a naturalist than a Catholic. His critique is devastating for emergentism although he remains committed to naturalism. Thomas Nagel is another atheist who has gone a step farther with the same problem and abandoned materialism altogether.

He is also correct that the human mind is a natural phenomenon, no argument there. The problem with adhering to naturalism though is it implies determinism: no free will. No free will means no free thought.
 
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Thanks for that. Yeah, I’ve briefly read what Vyshedskiy proposed some time back. Someone linked to that paper for some reason in another discussion. But I’d argue that what he’s describing is not an evolutionary process in any case. It’s more a cultural transmission of a concept. Which in itself is not unsurprising.

Now the chances of getting a beneficial mutation is incredibly small. The vast majority of them are either neutral or deleterious. So the chance of getting a mutation that might allow the possibility of recursive thinking (if such a mutation could even have existed) is incredibly small. But Vyshedskiy wants us to accept that the same mutation appeared at exactly the same time in two humans in exactly the same place. Not ‘the same time’ in an evolutionary sense, but within a time period of a year or so. And when I say ‘the same place’, I don’t mean on the same continent or the same part of the countryside, but literally in the same place. In the same hunter gatherer group. And that those two children together developed recursive thinking from first principles.

It’s not credible.
 
You dismissed that quickly; no surprise there, but I’m a little disappointed.

So how do you solve the problem?

Listen to a general discussion of it here by Prof. Richard Dawkins (from 45:04 to 48:45).
“It could be an exception to my general prejudice that evolution is always gradual. It could be a unique exception.”
 
This is a good way of showing the relationship between focus and memory, not to demonstrate that eye witness testimony is bad… especially if there are many, even hundreds or thousands of people.

Again, it’s a bit too convenient to exclude evidence just because it’s evidence.
 
You dismissed that quickly; no surprise there, but I’m a little disappointed.

So how do you solve the problem?

Listen to a general discussion of it here by Prof. Richard Dawkins (from 45:04 to 48:45).
“It could be an exception to my general prejudice that evolution is always gradual. It could be a unique exception.”
I’ve seen that discussion. Quite some time ago. And I didn’t recall that part of the talk. But I’m afraid I remain totally unconvinced. That said, I will spend some time this evening investigating further.
 
The underlying genetics and neural structures might predate the earliest acquisition of human language by generations.
 
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I should add that one of the issues with language acquisition is that it appears to happen during a fairly narrow window, that acquiring languages has fairly significant neurological effects, but that if it isn’t acquired fairly early on (probably around the age of five), a person can never really acquire full human language (the recursiveness you mention, as well as displacement, arbitrariness and semantics). So language isn’t just a matter of genetics or of initial neural structure (as found in utero or at birth), but also is heavily affected by post-natal development.

One thing that linguistics have observed is that creoles evolve and develop mainly in children, that while adults of different linguistic heritages can cobble together functional pidgins, those pidgins are something akin to “half languages”, whereas a creole has a far more consistent and regular grammar and other linguistic structures, and while based on features of parent languages (sometimes from completely different language families), they also acquire very novel features not found in parent languages. The general view is that children, with their capacity to learn language, also have significant abilities to modify and enlarge languages. The older we get, the less agile and adaptable our linguistic abilities become. It’s why a child who learns a second language in a very immersive setting can often acquire that second language to a level of a near-native speaker, but if I were to learn, say, Chinese now in my late-40s, I’d probably do well enough at simple exposition and requests, I’d never be able to speak it at the level as when I learned it in childhood.

The long and the short is that while there’s a clear genetic component to language, the best genes ever give any trait is a bit of a launching pad, but how the rocket flies is greatly dependent upon the environment in which we develop. It’s conceivable that the raw neurological machinery of language evolved at some time prior to actual human language evolving, and that actually putting the genetic, neurological and developmental pieces together took more time. We do know from the archaeological record that fully modern humans (at least in appearance) didn’t behave that much differently than their recent cousins and ancestors, and we don’t really see the first glimmers of what we would view as human culture (ie. symbolism, ritual) until tens of thousands of years after H. sapiens first appears on the scene. For a long time our behaviors and toolkits could hardly be distinguished from, say, Neanderthals. My guess is the difference is language, which facilitates cultural transmission with far greater accuracy than primate communication systems seen in other hominoids.
 
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Excellent post! I believe it’s Chomsky that thinks language was a rapid development? Whereas others are debating if it was a progressive process…from grunts to specific sounds to developed language structure. It is an area of intense research and a hard one! Sound leaves no fossils!
 
Excellent post! I believe it’s Chomsky that thinks language was a rapid development? Whereas others are debating if it was a progressive process…from grunts to specific sounds to developed language structure. It is an area of intense research and a hard one! Sound leaves no fossils!
I think Chomsky’s claim comes from the significant neurological changes that occur during language acquisition, not to mention the significance language plays in cognition itself. This is one of the many nurture versus nature debates in developmental biology. Clearly humans, at least among all the hominoids, have some raw genetic and neurological features that make full language acquisition possible, it’s also clear that in those very few documented cases of people who were so psychologically deprived that they never acquired language, that the “hardware” (as it were) never develops the faculty, and the language they can acquire is much more akin to the kind of language we can teach other hominoids; lacking regular grammar, semantic capability and displacement.

It’s a bit of a “just so” story, but imagine, if you will, early H. sapien populations evolving some genetic and neurological features that facilitate greater language capacity. Their language is still pretty much what we’d view is hominoid language, and not a full human communication system. But the brain, particularly in young children, is an extraordinarily agile and adaptable organ, and at some point the children begin to acquire more complex language structures; much like we observe the development of creoles happening mainly in children and not in adults. At that point, it might happen fairly rapidly, and within a generation you might have the earliest full language. If that’s the case, there may have been multiple instances of language genesis, rather than some single lightbulb that went off 150,000 years ago.

Human language is probably just co-opting neurological structures that serve other cognitive purposes, and we know that the brains of higher animals are actually very good at taking existing structures and adapting them to new situations (like how a three legged dog can retrain his brain to move fairly well, even though the brain itself is wired for four legs). And if learning language is co-opting structures evolved for other purposes, what little fossil evidence we have of brain structures (like the impressions of Brocca’s area in fossilized hominid skulls) won’t show any significant change.
 
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I have to give you extra hearts for this well written post!
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

I remember when I first began learning about language acquisition in children…how even the severely mentally handicapped child learns to speak their fully developed language with proper syntax, grammar, etc. How, as adults we lose the ability to ever fully speak another language to the point that the elderly just wind up with a barely functioning language. That pidgin in adults become creoles in children…all so fascinating. Enough so that I regret not majoring in the topic!
 
Excellent post! I believe it’s Chomsky that thinks language was a rapid development? Whereas others are debating if it was a progressive process…from grunts to specific sounds to developed language structure. It is an area of intense research and a hard one! Sound leaves no fossils!
The other thing that is evolving is our understanding of how organisms communicate generally. Horses, as it turns out, can read the emotions in a human being’s face. Babies can do it. We do it on a continual basis, even though we may be oblivious to both the ways in which we are picking up information and even to the information we ourselves are sending it out.
 
I’ve also read and have seen studies on this…fascinating stuff…especially with babies! How many visual clues we “catch “ yet have no obvious perception of doing so! That another adult can interpret a man with a scowl and crossed arms as angry, ok…but that babies, dogs and horses can? Amazing!
 
I’ve also read and have seen studies on this…fascinating stuff…especially with babies! How many visual clues we “catch “ yet have no obvious perception of doing so! That another adult can interpret a man with a scowl and crossed arms as angry, ok…but that babies, dogs and horses can? Amazing!
Sometimes I think that those of us who rely on spoken language too much are at risk of becoming oblivious to the unspoken communication that our pets and small children sense in an instant.

As to the original question, I think a person whose religious belief rests on some certain foundation could easily become an atheist if that foundation were to become broken in the eyes of that believer. Someone who imagines that could not happen is someone who cannot imagine that their own foundation could ever become undermined or that their own trust in it could be destroyed. We can come to take foundational things for granted, whether that be faith or spoken language or what have you.

Our Lord said as much: if your foundation is sand, any big storm will wash it away. Faith that lasts has a rock as its foundation. Not all believers have that kind of faith.
 
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Our Lord said as much: if your foundation is sand, any big storm will wash it away. Faith that lasts has a rock as its foundation. Not all believers have that kind of faith.
I’m not so sure. Often this seems to be trying to shift the blame for faith loss as in, they were never True Christians or, as you stated, built on sand. Of course, there are some where this may apply but more often I’ve seen the case of some doubt on a foundational belief just starts a discovery process. For some fundamentalists, learning about evolution may shake a foundational belief but that isn’t why they leave. It just begins the journey. A shaken foundational belief can also lead to them adjusting their faith and becoming stronger in it rather than walking away.

Just as I’ve seen religious believers take a long slow reasoned path to their faith, I’ve also seen many emotional, at the moment declarations of suddenly seeing the light. I’ve never seen an emotional sudden leaving of religion. It always seems to be a process, often of long duration before finally accepting atheism. The only exceptions are in cases where someone was greatly hurt by their faith (an abuse or other traumatic experience) and even then they usually pursue other faiths before concluding with atheism.
 
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Pattylt:
I’ve also read and have seen studies on this…fascinating stuff…especially with babies! How many visual clues we “catch “ yet have no obvious perception of doing so! That another adult can interpret a man with a scowl and crossed arms as angry, ok…but that babies, dogs and horses can? Amazing!
Sometimes I think that those of us who rely on spoken language too much are at risk of becoming oblivious to the unspoken communication that our pets and small children sense in an instant.
In this time of social distancing I find missing visual cues makes communication more difficult. Even video communications are no replacement for all of the gestures and other body language that are a significant part of communicating. Language is indeed much larger than the spoken word.
As to the original question, I think a person whose religious belief rests on some certain foundation could easily become an atheist if that foundation were to become broken in the eyes of that believer. Someone who imagines that could not happen is someone who cannot imagine that their own foundation could ever become undermined or that their own trust in it could be destroyed. We can come to take foundational things for granted, whether that be faith or spoken language or what have you.

Our Lord said as much: if your foundation is sand, any big storm will wash it away. Faith that lasts has a rock as its foundation. Not all believers have that kind of faith.
I can only speak for myself, but my doubt came out of my observations and learning coming into direct conflict with what I was being told. At some point something had to give; either I abandoned any notion that science is a reliable means of gaining knowledge and modeling the real world, or I had to abandon my religious beliefs. It certainly didn’t happen all at once, but that initial doubt that began to gather in my when I was in grade three and looking through a book on human evolution lead to questioning everything. If the people who claimed they were authorities were wrong on such a fundamental level, then it lead over the next six or seven years to a complete loss of any faith in them, and in the underlying theological and metaphysical claims. Perhaps I have been unfair to Christianity in general, but I simply can’t accept that gaps in knowledge lead automatically to inserting a Creator.

Acting as if a loss of faith is automatically a sign of deficiency in the person who loses their faith seems very uncharitable and unfair, as if I fell off the path, rather than looking at the path itself.
 
I know a Satanist who has a remarkable understanding of Catholic theology. That’s because she was a religious for most of a lifetime. She said she hates God now. She told me how she devoted every day to prayer and serving the poor obedient to a strict rule of life. Then there came a point where she started thinking…nothing is happening. Where are the rewards of this life! The mystical heights? She felt she had …no She felt God had wasted her life because she had been getting angrier and angrier at God until she hates Him. To get back at God she became a Satanist.
 
I’m not so sure. Often this seems to be trying to shift the blame for faith loss as in, they were never True Christians or, as you stated, built on sand. Of course, there are some where this may apply but more often I’ve seen the case of some doubt on a foundational belief just starts a discovery process. For some fundamentalists, learning about evolution may shake a foundational belief but that isn’t why they leave. It just begins the journey. A shaken foundational belief can also lead to them adjusting their faith and becoming stronger in it rather than walking away.

Just as I’ve seen religious believers take a long slow reasoned path to their faith, I’ve also seen many emotional, at the moment declarations of suddenly seeing the light. I’ve never seen an emotional sudden leaving of religion. It always seems to be a process, often of long duration before finally accepting atheism. The only exceptions are in cases where someone was greatly hurt by their faith (an abuse or other traumatic experience) and even then they usually pursue other faiths before concluding with atheism.
It isn’t necessary that the foundation actually be false. It is only necessary that the believer perceives it to be so. Yes, absolutely, that can be (and probably usually is) a gradual process, just as coming to trust the foundation of faith is usually a gradual process.
 
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